85th Running Of The 24 Hours Of Le Mans, 17-18 June 2017Sports Cars

[wowbaggerBR]

Rebellion lost the third place:

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/n...ad-stripped-of-overall-le-mans-podium-920544/

Welp, where there is a Piquet...

 

[UnkaD]

I remember seeing that in the pit stop when the Fox commentators kept making the joke about "knockometers." Didn't even cross my mind that the hole wasn't originally there, even though I saw them hitting on it earlier with the bodywork off. Guess I was tired.

 

[Michelin Man]

Must say, thoroughly impressed by LMP2, as always. Much like GTE-Pro, it was close fought, hard racing, with half a dozen cars, give or take, on the same lap battling.

Been getting into LMP2, and paying it more attention the past few years, whereas before, I rather naively overlooked it, for perhaps being a "lower class". But the racing has been very interesting to watch the past few years, and this year was probably the first year I properly got into it (and what a year to do so...), by making an effort to learn about more of the teams. Plus there's some top class drivers in it, and this year was no different.

For me, aside from the #38 Jackie Chan DC racing team, one of the surprise drivers of the race for me, was Vergne (JEV) in the #24 Manor. Vergne put in some monster stint's during the race, with at least a couple of awesome 3.5 Hour or so shifts, to keep the Manor in the lead battle mid-way through, with a podium on the cards 'till quite late. Finished 7th in class; 8th overall, so I can't remember what issues the #24 ran into, but I remember it having problems.

Either way, Verge did an excellent job, and a really good showing for someone who is a Le Mans rookie. Would be interesting to see if he gets an LMP1 drive later down the line, reckon he'd do a good job, certainly deserves it, he's a good driver. Really felt for him after F1, felt like he was tossed aside by Toro Rosso. If he was to get an LMP1 drive, what about a seat at Toyota? Would perhaps be great a replacement for Lapierre, who, with no-disrespect, is not suited to LMP1, or at least at Toyota right now, with the current driver lineup there.

 

[Earth]

It's a giant stretch to call Le Mans the world's greatest race when the top-tier class has only 5 entries, ALL of which fail to move only hours into the race. The race wasn't on the track, but in the installation of replacement hybrid drive motors. The emperor has no clothes. Le Mans is a bad joke at the moment.

The core issue in LMP1 is the lack of privateer teams. If there was a LMP1 Pescarolo or Rebellion team to pick up the pieces at this year's race and win overall most people would have been fine with it. The problem was after all the factory cars dropped out there was nothing left - exposing the big issue in LMP1 right now - no privateer teams. Penske Racing wanted to run a pair of '16 R18s at this year's race, but Audi declined. Can you imagine if they did? They would have won outright quite easily I believe.

Privateers first took a big blow with the unfairly balanced diesels and then finally left when the hybrids became stupid fast and essentially were in their own class. Remember 2006? That was the last year a privateer team was within 4 seconds of factory LMP1 cars and it was a decent race. Pescarolo managed to keep the factory Audis honest.

The hybrid technology needs to be dropped for a number of reasons. They drive up the costs of the cars so private teams cant compete at all, and it makes them too fast.

I also dont like how GTE is being run. Why should Ford and Porsche bother building new cars when Aston's dinosaur is given all sorts of power increases and weight breaks to keep up with them? Remember when older LMP cars were grandfathered into new rule sets? Well you were always punished for using an older car. Less fuel capacity etc etc. People bringing newer, faster cars should not be punished so old timey cars can keep up.

GTE feels like a NASCAR race. Nobody is allowed to have an advantage. Who really wants that in sportscars? Yes the racing is close, but thats because its manufactured to be that way. I think its OK for someone to be faster, or have better fuel mileage. If this is GTE Pro, where all the big manufacturers are supporting the teams, then they need to man up and stop relying on BOP. Build a car that is better then the competition. Im OK with 1 team running off into the distance and dominating.

BOP also creates the silly sandbagging issue.

Wec are a joke. So many people couldnt log in to stream it, streams stuttering, page unavailable.Its no wonder alot used a dodgy stream. The service hasnt improved since last season. They dont care when you complain they deny it has issues. Eurosport player is the best option. No adverts, a stable hd picture with no buffering etc. Thats how to do it ! Get your act together wec !

The WEC video stream worked perfect for me 24hrs straight. Superb HD picture quality and no buffering. Only thing that didn't work was the track map and the live timing updated like every 5 minutes.

But I'd pay $10 again in a heartbeat. Not having to watch 5 hours of commercial on Fox Sports or rely on a seedy stream was worth it. Wish they would use RLM commentary though, as those guys are easily the best there is. Nobody keeps you more informed of whats happening in the race then they do.

 

[quatschkopp]

Wec are a joke. So many people couldnt log in to stream it, streams stuttering, page unavailable.Its no wonder alot used a dodgy stream. The service hasnt improved since last season. They dont care when you complain they deny it has issues. Eurosport player is the best option. No adverts, a stable hd picture with no buffering etc. Thats how to do it ! Get your act together wec !

I'm such a dork, I was watching the german Eurosport Live Stream via Astra Satellite. In fact, it more felt like watching advertisements being interrupted by "Le Mans racing". I don't know, but it was like having an advert break every 10 minutes or so.
Next year, I'll try their Live Player. Thanks and thumbs up for the hint 👍

Why should Ford and Porsche bother building new cars when Aston's dinosaur is given all sorts of power increases and weight breaks to keep up with them?

Thankfully they did. But... I think you've nailed it

GTE feels like a NASCAR race. Nobody is allowed to have an advantage. Who really wants that in sportscars? Yes the racing is close, but thats because its manufactured to be that way. I think its OK for someone to be faster, or have better fuel mileage. If this is GTE Pro, where all the big manufacturers are supporting the teams, then they need to man up and stop relying on BOP. Build a car that is better then the competition. Im OK with 1 team running off into the distance and dominating.

Spot on for my likes here as well. Let there be competition. If I'd like to watch a race of cars with the same "Power", I could as well watch a NASCAR race. I might be totally wrong, but that's what I think about a NASCAR race, too. I think, that's what people mean if they're talking about cars racing around in circles ?

 

[McLaren]

I also dont like how GTE is being run. Why should Ford and Porsche bother building new cars when Aston's dinosaur is given all sorts of power increases and weight breaks to keep up with them? Remember when older LMP cars were grandfathered into new rule sets? Well you were always punished for using an older car. Less fuel capacity etc etc. People bringing newer, faster cars should not be punished so old timey cars can keep up.

The owner of the team that campaigned the Prodrive 550 Maranellos & Audi Sport UK R8s shares a similar opinion.

This is a great subject. What is the point of liking race winning cars which wins in a Balance of Performance Series race any more?? It is nothing about the car anymore when any performance edge of the cars were being taken away. It is a drivers + teamwork championship.

There is no point for engineers led teams to engage in racing series which is subject to Balance of Performance. How can you engage in an competition which they have to take all the competitive edge away from you after you spent all your time training to find that exact edge?

GTE feels like a NASCAR race. Nobody is allowed to have an advantage. Who really wants that in sportscars? Yes the racing is close, but thats because its manufactured to be that way. I think its OK for someone to be faster, or have better fuel mileage. If this is GTE Pro, where all the big manufacturers are supporting the teams, then they need to man up and stop relying on BOP. Build a car that is better then the competition. Im OK with 1 team running off into the distance and dominating.

Of course, this is the other side of the coin. It's not easy to outperform a big manufacturer who can pool money into running 2 (or jeez, in Ford's case, 4) race cars. Risi gets some help the factory, but nowhere near enough to make the same impact with Ferrari rather pooling resources into a Challenge Series for clients & Formula 1.

Years back during ALMS, the GTS/GT1 class caught some flack because Corvette Racing had a factory backed team that gave them an upper edge; I think only Aston Martin Racing took the fight to them 1 or 2 seasons but the majority of the class was down to just 3-4 teams a season with the C6Rs repeatedly dominating. Pratt & Miller, and LG Motorsports had C6Rs but I don't recall them ever having that kind of success Corvette Racing got. And how many years did Audi get criticism for because they always won?

It seems like a tricky situation to find a solution to with pros/cons on both sides. The goal for the teams is ultimately to win, but I can see the organizers wanting something that keeps the fans' attention. Happens in other sports.

 

[TheElbows]

That has always been the downside to a non-BOP approach, particularly for something like LeMans. At the end of the day most automotive companies are skittish about motorsport in general (and the incredible cost of partaking). You'll end up one or two super teams who are willing to put in the time and money...and no one else will race.

I see the argument made all the time in GT3 racing etc. The manufacturers only make GT3 customer cars because of stuff like BOP. I love the idea of unregulated motorsports, but it would die immediately without a very specific/special framework put in place.

 

[aarror]

I also dont like how GTE is being run. Why should Ford and Porsche bother building new cars when Aston's dinosaur is given all sorts of power increases and weight breaks to keep up with them?

I keep seeing this brought up, and I can't help but be amused. In 2016 the best Aston Martin qualified with a 3:55, while in 2017, with essentially the same car, they went 5 seconds faster with a 3:50, faster than Ford's pole in 2016. And while I'm sure the other cars could go quicker than that, I'd be willing to bet the Aston could as well. To claim that the ACO is holding everyone back to match Aston, despite them being badly held back themselves last year, is a rather strange place to come from. It seems fairly obvious the entire GTE field is being held at a pace the ACO is comfortable with.

 

[trustjab]

Aston has the dunlop tires too. Which they claim are great for the hot weather. Bring on the Nurburgring. I hope it's a great fight and Toyota can get back to the front again. Wonder what Porsche has in store for them with their high downforce package.

 

[Skython]

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/n...ad-stripped-of-overall-le-mans-podium-920544/

Well this sucks.

Doesn't suck for Alpine fans. *starts dancing*

Infact, to be honest it does sort of suck in a way. I'm not a fan of rules for the sake of rules (like most people here, I'd imagine), so for that being the thing that gave the car I was rooting for a podium, it feels sort of hollow and undeserved. If they'd done something like tune the car beyond the requirements, then fair deal. But this sort of thing is just lame, and takes the spirit out of endurance racing in a way.

 

[doblocruiser]

With all the questioning around the LMP1 class I wonder why the manufactures arent simply moving into LMP2. The field is much more competitive and it would be easier for ACO to accept multiple constructors without huge costs. Toyota seems to have its doubts as well as Porsche for LMP1. Moving to LMP2 and inviting Renault, Peugeot and maybe some other brands could bring back some excitement.

LMP1 is the most technically advanced but maybe they should reconsider the way it is set up and I wonder if the rulechanges for 2020 are really going to change something. I mean if Porsche or Toyota decides to quit then it is simply of no use to keep LMP1 at all.

BTW: Gutted for Toyota , happy for Alpine

 

[Touring Mars]

In fact, it more felt like watching advertisements being interrupted by "Le Mans racing".

It was a bit like that...

I don't think those adverts affected me though, even though there was an amazon amount of them. I don't renault if it kenwood have made any difference if there had been fewer of them.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Rebellion lost the third place:

https://www.motorsport.com/lemans/n...ad-stripped-of-overall-le-mans-podium-920544/

Welp, where there is a Piquet...

Saw this had to redo my fantasy points a bit...

I'm surprised this wasn't called sooner.

With all the questioning around the LMP1 class I wonder why the manufactures arent simply moving into LMP2. The field is much more competitive and it would be easier for ACO to accept multiple constructors without huge costs. Toyota seems to have its doubts as well as Porsche for LMP1. Moving to LMP2 and inviting Renault, Peugeot and maybe some other brands could bring back some excitement.

LMP1 is the most technically advanced but maybe they should reconsider the way it is set up and I wonder if the rulechanges for 2020 are really going to change something. I mean if Porsche or Toyota decides to quit then it is simply of no use to keep LMP1 at all.

BTW: Gutted for Toyota , happy for Alpine

Because LMP2 isn't a manufacture based class at all, it is exactly why some of the former privateer p1 teams left and went to p2 instead. Because it was a more fair cost effective setting, the the top class never was.

 

[Tired Tyres]

With all the questioning around the LMP1 class I wonder why the manufactures arent simply moving into LMP2. The field is much more competitive and it would be easier for ACO to accept multiple constructors without huge costs. Toyota seems to have its doubts as well as Porsche for LMP1. Moving to LMP2 and inviting Renault, Peugeot and maybe some other brands could bring back some excitement.

LMP1 is the most technically advanced but maybe they should reconsider the way it is set up and I wonder if the rulechanges for 2020 are really going to change something. I mean if Porsche or Toyota decides to quit then it is simply of no use to keep LMP1 at all.

BTW: Gutted for Toyota , happy for Alpine

Can't. No manufacturers allowed. Which is why that Alpine of yours is living on borrowed time.

 

[doblocruiser]

Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't up2date of the LMP2 rules

 

[psychoazubi]

Vincent Capillaire (The LMP2 driver signing the #7 to go) says sorry to Toyota:

 

[shoemaker]

Seems like the wec live streaming was hit and miss. Some say it was great,others had countless issues. It should be the same for everybody, my issue was Eurosport tv channel putting ads on every 12 mins which was painful and ruined it a bit for me to the point that i purchased eurosport player as i was that peed off. Still cant believe it didnt rain ! a shame about lmp1, i hope that is not repeated and reliability is dramatically improved. It was a good race elsewhere but it wasnt memorable. Does anybody know why Sir Chris Hoy wasnt racing ?

 

[Touring Mars]

Vincent Capillaire (The LMP2 driver signing the #7 to go) says sorry to Toyota:

What a pilloque

 

[TenEightyOne]

What a pilloque

"Encouragement spontanée" mon cul.

Does anybody know why Sir Chris Hoy wasnt racing ?

He had a crash at Brands Hatch earlier in the week... related?

 

[fortbo]

 

[sems4arsenal]

I'm no motorsport engineer, but can an additional stop-start really burn out a clutch?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'm no motorsport engineer, but can an additional stop-start really burn out a clutch?

It supposedly can when the engine/clutch integration work off the electric motor and can only truly be engaged with a rev match after getting to about 80 mile per hour as explained by Toyota. What supposedly happened was Kobiyashi stopped, then went due to the actions of the P2 driver, then stopped again when told, then went again when told. This interaction all happening outside the threshold window was what apparently burned up the clutch.

Once again if true, it's just another crazy situation Toyota has had happened to them, that no one could have predicted that caused one of their cars to end it.

 

[sems4arsenal]

It supposedly can when the engine/clutch integration work of the electric motor and can only truly be engaged with a rev match after getting to about 80 mile per hour as explained by Toyota. What supposedly happened was Kobiyashi stopped, then went due to the actions of the P2 driver, then stopped again when told, then went again when told. This interaction all happening outside the threshold window was what apparently burned up the clutch.

Once again if true, it's just another crazy situation Toyota has had happened to them, that no one could have predicted that caused one of their cars to end it.

Oh wow. Any reason why the actual real marshal decided to stop standing in front of the Toyota and basically left? is this standard procedure?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Oh wow. Any reason why the actual real marshal decided to stop standing in front of the Toyota and basically left? is this standard procedure?

No clue, like the P2 driver it'd be nice to get an explanation from the ACO on why their own track official didn't do his job. It's interesting how we didn't even get word of the fine the driver got for doing this antic until the apology came out. As if the ACO was hoping this situation wouldn't have got so much attention. I'm guessing there will be strict guidelines in relation to who and where and when, in relation to pit road.

 

[wowbaggerBR]

Oh wow. Any reason why the actual real marshal decided to stop standing in front of the Toyota and basically left? is this standard procedure?

No clue, like the P2 driver it'd be nice to get an explanation from the ACO on why their own track official didn't do his job. It's interesting how we didn't even get word of the fine the driver got for doing this antic until the apology came out. As if the ACO was hoping this situation wouldn't have got so much attention. I'm guessing there will be strict guidelines in relation to who and where and when, in relation to pit road.

I guess he just acted like he usually do. The standard procedure is to wait the red light, so he probably didn't thought Kobayashi, a professional racing driver, record holder of the circuit and leading the race easily at that point, would jump before the green.

I'm sure that hitting the clutch on and off in these cars would break it fast, but the video don't show Kobayashi doing that, so, I don't know Toyota... if you have to blame someone, blame Lapierre.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I guess he just acted like he usually do. The standard procedure is to wait the red light, so he probably didn't thought Kobayashi, a professional racing driver, record holder of the circuit and leading the race easily at that point, would jump before the green.

I'm sure that hitting the clutch on and off in these cars would break it fast, but the video don't show Kobayashi doing that, so, I don't know Toyota... if you have to blame someone, blame Lapierre.

The claim is that he did do that though and they have data on it, the video doesn't really show the entire span of the incident. All that was seen was Kobiyashi leave then a couple minutes later showed him second or third in line behind the queue he got in with.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I guess he just acted like he usually do. The standard procedure is to wait the red light, so he probably didn't thought Kobayashi, a professional racing driver, record holder of the circuit and leading the race easily at that point, would jump before the green.

I'm sure that hitting the clutch on and off in these cars would break it fast, but the video don't show Kobayashi doing that, so, I don't know Toyota... if you have to blame someone, blame Lapierre.

The problem being that drivers are told to take instructions from marshals over electrical signals. Additionally the footage didn't show him after he'd left the stop area. There is still a significant amount of the pitlane limiter section still to go. That's probably the point when he got the stop no better go type instructions from the team.

 

[C-ZETA]

It was a bit like that...

I don't think those adverts affected me though, even though there was an amazon amount of them. I don't renault if it kenwood have made any difference if there had been fewer of them.

Reminder - if you thought the LMP's retirements were bad, the Kenwood adverts were still worse.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Can't. No manufacturers allowed. Which is why that Alpine of yours is living on borrowed time.

The Alpine is fine because it's just a re-badged Oreca, which is allowed under the rules. Is there anything to stop manufacture teams from joining LMP1-L? If not that would allow them to race in a much cheaper way and with an all-pro line-up (which they can't do in P2). I think Ducati did something similar with the Open class in MotoGP and got decent results.

 

[Tired Tyres]

The Alpine is fine because it's just a re-badged Oreca, which is allowed under the rules. Is there anything to stop manufacture teams from joining LMP1-L? If not that would allow them to race in a much cheaper way and with an all-pro line-up (which they can't do in P2). I think Ducati did something similar with the Open class in MotoGP and got decent results.

Nope. It has a chassis plate - That's why it can be called an Alpine.

As for LMP1, this is take directly from the WEC site.

LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1 category includes:

• "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1 Hybrid: with Energy Recovery System (ERS).
• "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1: with no Energy Recovery System (ERS) reserved only for private teams.

The LMP1 Private Teams category is reserved exclusively for independent private teams. A team that is independent of a manufacturer means a team that does not benefit from any support from a manufacturer other than for the single supply of engines, services relating to these engines or commercial support. Any support from a manufacturer relating to the chassis or to chassis systems is prohibited. It is understood that traction control is considered as a chassis system.