A-spec Beginners Level Non-Racing Car Challenge: Suzuka East Course

[photonrider]

You got it. I was howling with laughter watching the replay.

That Midget is a busy little fellow.

And sometimes it's not about winning or losing . . . but how you play the game.

 

[Polsixe]

Still, beginner or not, a car of such inferiority should not be able to win this race against the front runners. They are making it easy in the wrong way. Make it easy in the way that you are using around the same HP cars, or cars around the same PP class. You see what I'm saying don't you. I mean, this is just not realistic at all....and it all goes back to their bad programming of the AI. I don't know, I'm sure the majority will disagree with me on this, but its just how I feel. In regards to your last sentence coming from just an average driver like me and in my opinion, you'd have to be pretty unskilled to not be able to win this race in a car at the max allowable PP.

It's similar lap times to the National B GT Compact Car Championship version but 5 laps instead of 3 so in that sense it is easier. For real newbies I guess.

 

[Thematic]

Figured I'd go with a fast stock car and low grip. Enjoyed several races. NSX '01 at 449 PP/CH. Win with total time 5:44.750.

 

[Team Ape]

Tried a heavily tuned midget - Won with some defence on straights

Even more fun was a tuned Schwimmwagen - Won with a big grin

Old Mini Cooper (tuned), won again with a grin big enough for two faces

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

It's similar lap times to the National B GT Compact Car Championship version but 5 laps instead of 3 so in that sense it is easier. For real newbies I guess.

I think you're missing my point. They can make it easy, but make it easy with similar cars, not cars with 200 less HP, that's just not realistic. They can easily enough program the AI to run similar lap times with cars of similar HP. Once they do that, then they can adjust the AI to beginner, intermediate, and professional pace. For a company who claims to pride themselves on realism and simulation, they have totally flunked in the realism department in my opinion.

 

[Buck-O]

Its pretty damn silly/ridiculous when I can take a 69HP/333PP car (Autobianchi A112 Abarth '79) and beat a 239HP/448PP car in this Seasonal. (Other Seasonals are the same way for the most part) Just shows how screwed up PD has this whole thing set up. A car with only 69HP should not be able to beat a car with 239HP, that's just ridiculous.

To be fair, this IS the "easy mode" seasonal for the casuals. I wouldn't expect it to be performance level perfect like the expert level stuff is.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

To be fair, this IS the "easy mode" seasonal for the casuals. I wouldn't expect it to be performance level perfect like the expert level stuff is.

Ok, you too are missing my point. I know this is the easy mode. But make it easy using the same class of cars the AI are using. If they program the AI right, you should be able to have great races with any car within say +/- 20HP or so. For realism, you should not be able to take a 69 HP car and win this race with it. That is just arcade like game play. Doesn't anyone here see what I'm trying to say? They are making it easy in a very unrealistic way, very arcade like.

 

[ALB123]

Perhaps the starting lineup looked something like this:

Maybe that's how 69hp took the checkered flag??

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Perhaps the starting lineup looked something like this:

View attachment 256690

View attachment 256692

View attachment 256693

Maybe that's how 69hp took the checkered flag??

Wow, thanks for giving me any kind of credit there smartass. Guess it just depends on who does it as to what kind of credit they get. Maybe I should just paint my car pink and call myself WolverineWoman.

 

[ALB123]

Oh, I'm sorry...I actually DO think the reason you won is because you know how to drive. My point wasn't to insinuate you don't. I think @Polsixe and @Buck-O were saying something similar. In the "beginner" level race even though they have higher HP (or PP) cars, we need to think of the DRIVERS of those cars are completely inexperienced. In my case, I made a joke implying that little old ladies were behind the wheel of those higher horse-powered cars.

I agree with you. A 69hp car shouldn't be able to win the race. Especially considering they start you off 40+ seconds behind the leader. I don't know what WhoosierGirl has to do with this. Yes, she does get a lot of praise when she chooses unorthodox cars for certain situations. Personally, I think it's very well deserved. Just like the praise many other people receive in these threads.

When you first mentioned your victory in the 69hp car, @Polsixe commented and you continued to reply how this event is just too easy and the AI is programmed incorrectly and not making it challenging, etc... My response was an attempt to use humor in showing why the AI drivers weren't driving faster with their much more powerful cars. Not an insult as to your skill. I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way...

 

[soupcan]

Wow, thanks for giving me any kind of credit there smartass. Guess it just depends on who does it as to what kind of credit they get. Maybe I should just paint my car pink and call myself WolverineWoman.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

View attachment 256761

Not mad at all. Quite the contrary, notice the smilies.

@ALB123 Yes, I get it. 👍 Guess I didn't add enough smilies in my post to show that I was joking and being light-hearted. As far as Whoosiergirl, I don't recall even mentioning her name. Anyways, enough as we're off-topic now. I was just giving my feelings on this Seasonal, no need for me to state it any further. Good-night guys.

 

[SVPSkins]

You got it. I was howling with laughter watching the replay.

That Midget is a busy little fellow.

And sometimes it's not about winning or losing . . . but how you play the game.

Amen to that

i bet you was

 

[Buck-O]

Ok, you too are missing my point. I know this is the easy mode. But make it easy using the same class of cars the AI are using. If they program the AI right, you should be able to have great races with any car within say +/- 20HP or so. For realism, you should not be able to take a 69 HP car and win this race with it. That is just arcade like game play. Doesn't anyone here see what I'm trying to say? They are making it easy in a very unrealistic way, very arcade like.

No, i get it just fine. The "easy mode" seasonals are, IMHO, equal to National B, or National A difficulty level. They are literally meant to not be hard, and be as easy for someone who hasnt done much game progression, or isnt a clock chaser, to win some seasonal loot payouts. Basically, its targeted to anyone not "us".

I would expect just about any seriously seasoned racer and leader board chaser to beast the beginner A-Spec seasonal in a Kei Car...as you have displayed.

Those beginner seasonals are never going to be hard, thats the long and short of it. The only way to make it difficult for us is to grosely handicap ourselves. And even then, the AI is going to slow up to "rubberband" you anyway. Not everyone is as comfortable with racing and racing mechanics as we are. At the end of the day, this is a game, and it has to be accessible. That is what these seasonals are.

Dont get your panties in a wad man, no one is calling you out, or trying to be little you. We are just stating the obvious.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

No, i get it just fine. The "easy mode" seasonals are, IMHO, equal to National B, or National A difficulty level. They are literally meant to not be hard, and be as easy for someone who hasnt done much game progression, or isnt a clock chaser, to win some seasonal loot payouts. Basically, its targeted to anyone not "us".

I would expect just about any seriously seasoned racer and leader board chaser to beast the beginner A-Spec seasonal in a Kei Car...as you have displayed.

Those beginner seasonals are never going to be hard, thats the long and short of it. The only way to make it difficult for us is to grosely handicap ourselves. And even then, the AI is going to slow up to "rubberband" you anyway. Not everyone is as comfortable with racing and racing mechanics as we are. At the end of the day, this is a game, and it has to be accessible. That is what these seasonals are.

Dont get your panties in a wad man, no one is calling you out, or trying to be little you. We are just stating the obvious.

Ok, first of all, my panties aren't in a bunch nor did I say anyone was calling me out or trying to belittle me. That would be a very wrong assumption on your part. Not sure where you got as I thought I was being pretty cordial in stating my opinion. You, or anyone else here, doesn't have to state the obvious as it is quite clear to me that these are supposed to be easy. But here, let me further break it down for you as far as what I'm trying to say here.

Biginner Level - Make this race easy, without completely blowing away the field, with one of the cars used by the AI. Examples would be the NSX '01, Skyline GT-R '93, V8S '91. Program the AI so that they give you an easily won race but without blowing the field away. Right now, if I wanted to use one of those cars, I would completely wipe the field. That is not realistic. Neither is using the power limiter all the way down to 50% or down grading tires. (The AI run on SH, so why should I have to handicap myself just because PD is too lazy to correctly program the AI) You should be able to have a fun competitive race that's pretty easy to win using one of these cars or cars around the same PP. This same idea should be followed for the other two events. Progressively getting harder up to the Expert Level event all the while using cars that the AI is using. PD could do this is the simply reprogrammed the AI for each of these events. Like I said before, I understand these are supposed to be easy, but they are easy in all the wrong ways and makes the game play like an arcade racer, even though PD claims simulation. I think PD should take a few notes from GAS as far as AI programming goes, they could learn a lot.

Anyways, I hope I have made what I'm trying to say a bit more clearer. Easy can be easy, but while using cars of close to the allowable PP range without completely blowing away the field. I would like to use my 350Z Roadster '03 for this event but it simply isn't any fun when all I'm doing is time trialing a field of moving chicanes.

 

[nowcontrol]

The thing you must remember tho, is that the subtitle of the game is "The Real Driving Simulator" with no mention of any actual racing, there is the catch you see, the R word only relates to online competition against other real world players. As you have just said, and it has been said many times before, the AI are just slow moving obstacles and should never be considered racing rivals. I know, It's bloody tedious but it is what it is and we can't do a thing to change it.

You're right tho, PD's AI programmers need a boot in the backside.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

The thing you must remember tho, is that the subtitle of the game is "The Real Driving Simulator" with no mention of any actual racing, there is the catch you see, the R word only relates to online competition against other real world players. As you have just said, and it has been said many times before, the AI are just slow moving obstacles and should never be considered racing rivals. I know, It's bloody tedious but it is what it is and we can't do a thing to change it.

You're right tho, PD's AI programmers need a boot in the backside.

Well, lets not split hairs here, but both you and I know that this game is centered around racing, both online and off. In my mind, if this game was just meant to be "The Real Driving Simulator" as you say, then we would just have free roam and be able to just casually drive all over the country, with no hint of actual racing. At any rate, that's my view and I see and respect yours.

 

[Buck-O]

Ok, first of all, my panties aren't in a bunch nor did I say anyone was calling me out or trying to belittle me. That would be a very wrong assumption on your part. Not sure where you got as I thought I was being pretty cordial in stating my opinion. You, or anyone else here, doesn't have to state the obvious as it is quite clear to me that these are supposed to be easy. But here, let me further break it down for you as far as what I'm trying to say here.

Biginner Level - Make this race easy, without completely blowing away the field, with one of the cars used by the AI. Examples would be the NSX '01, Skyline GT-R '93, V8S '91. Program the AI so that they give you an easily won race but without blowing the field away. Right now, if I wanted to use one of those cars, I would completely wipe the field. That is not realistic. Neither is using the power limiter all the way down to 50% or down grading tires. (The AI run on SH, so why should I have to handicap myself just because PD is too lazy to correctly program the AI) You should be able to have a fun competitive race that's pretty easy to win using one of these cars or cars around the same PP. This same idea should be followed for the other two events. Progressively getting harder up to the Expert Level event all the while using cars that the AI is using. PD could do this is the simply reprogrammed the AI for each of these events. Like I said before, I understand these are supposed to be easy, but they are easy in all the wrong ways and makes the game play like an arcade racer, even though PD claims simulation. I think PD should take a few notes from GAS as far as AI programming goes, they could learn a lot.

Anyways, I hope I have made what I'm trying to say a bit more clearer. Easy can be easy, but while using cars of close to the allowable PP range without completely blowing away the field. I would like to use my 350Z Roadster '03 for this event but it simply isn't any fun when all I'm doing is time trialing a field of moving chicanes.

Fair enough, ive just been here long enough to hear more than my fair share of GTP_CargoRants, and i know you can take things out of context and get a little overly sensitive about topics. So i wanted to make it clear that no one in this thread was trying to bully you, or belittle you.

That out of the way...

I look at it like this. As a "beginner" race, if i handed the controller to my wife, she would struggle to win. She doesnt know what a racing line is, and has the hand eye coordination of a blind quadriplegic. If she managed to get first place i would be stunned. That is what the "beginner" races are for. People who arent really "racers".

Now if i gave the controller to my friends 10 year old kid, he would probably be able to win without too much effort. But as he doesnt fully understand racing lines, or race craft, it may take him a few laps to get into first place.

Now, you give the controller to someone who has been playing Gran Turismo for 15 years, like me and you, and we will be in first place coming through the second esse on lap two in a Samba Bus.

Likewise, where we find some enjoyment in the thrill of the chase in the expert racing car class. Other people would be frustrated at the level of precision required, and call BS on the game for being "unrealistically hard".

As cheap as the beginner series races are to us GT vets, they fill a niche for less experienced drivers, and thats fine by me. I will take the easy cash, and the free color chip, and use one of my drift builds on Eco-Hard tires just for a laugh to make it entertaining.

EDIT: I a word.

 

[Woodski_427]

One of the things I like about GT is taking small, low powered or daft cars, and beating the AI in sports cars/supercars. Yes it may be a by-product of PD's screwy AI programming, but to me it's a bit of a fun while making some money.

Due to a lack of playing time, I used my Mini Marcos at 450pp on Comfort Softs. Fairly easy win, but the Marcos is still underpowered on the straight compared to the opposition. Hadn't used it for ages, such a good drive.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Fair enough, ive just been here long enough to hear more than my fair share of GTP_CargoRants, and i know you can take things out of context and get a little overly sensitive about topics. So i wanted to make it clear that no one in this thread was trying to bully you, or belittle you.

That out of the way...

I look at it like this. As a "beginner" race, if i handed the controller to my wife, she would struggle to win. She doesnt know what a racing line is, and has the hand eye coordination of a blind quadriplegic. If she managed to get first place i would be stunned. That is what the "beginner" races are for. People who arent really "racers".

Now if i gave the controller to my friends 10 year old kid, he would probably be able to win without too much effort. But as he doesnt fully understand racing lines, or race craft, it may take him a few laps to get into first place.

Now, you give the controller to someone who has been playing Gran Turismo for 15 years, like me and you, and we will be in first place coming through the second esse on lap two in a Samba Bus.

Likewise, where we find some enjoyment in the thrill of the chase in the expert racing car class. Other people would be frustrated at the level of precision required, and call BS on the game for being "unrealistically hard".

As cheap as the beginner series races are to us GT vets, they fill a niche for less experienced drivers, and thats fine by me. I will take the easy cash, and the free color chip, and use one of my drift builds on Eco-Hard tires just for a laugh to make it entertaining.

EDIT: I a word.

Yet again, you totally ignore and miss my point. Everything you say is fine, but needs to be accomplished by cars in and around the same PP level, and that's it. No 69 HP car should be winning this event, it is not realistic. I don't have a problem with these events being easy, never even said as much. Again, my problem is taking a very inferior car (low HP) and winning the race with it. That is unrealistic and makes the game feel like an arcade racer. You are totally ignoring my issue here and turning it into something that its not. Please, go back and carefully re-read this part of my post from above.

"Beginner Level - Make this race easy, without completely blowing away the field, with one of the cars used by the AI. Examples would be the NSX '01, Skyline GT-R '93, V8S '91. Program the AI so that they give you an easily won race but without blowing the field away. Right now, if I wanted to use one of those cars, I would completely wipe the field. That is not realistic. Neither is using the power limiter all the way down to 50% or down grading tires. (The AI run on SH, so why should I have to handicap myself just because PD is too lazy to correctly program the AI) You should be able to have a fun competitive race that's pretty easy to win using one of these cars or cars around the same PP. This same idea should be followed for the other two events. Progressively getting harder up to the Expert Level event all the while using cars that the AI is using. PD could do this is the simply reprogrammed the AI for each of these events. Like I said before, I understand these are supposed to be easy, but they are easy in all the wrong ways and makes the game play like an arcade racer, even though PD claims simulation. I think PD should take a few notes from GAS as far as AI programming goes, they could learn a lot."

I don't know what more I can say to make my point any clearer to you. Las t time, I don't have a problem at all with the events being easy. My problem is using unrealistically low HP cars to win these races. Period. If you can understand my point now, well then there is nothing more I can say to help you to.

PS Just fyi, I haven't been playing GT for 15 years, only since the launch of GT5. Before that, I had zero gaming experience as far as racing games go.

 

[Buck-O]

Yet again, you totally ignore and miss my point. Everything you say is fine, but needs to be accomplished by cars in and around the same PP level, and that's it. No 69 HP car should be winning this event, it is not realistic. I don't have a problem with these events being easy, never even said as much. Again, my problem is taking a very inferior car (low HP) and winning the race with it. That is unrealistic and makes the game feel like an arcade racer. You are totally ignoring my issue here and turning it into something that its not. Please, go back and carefully re-read this part of my post from above.

"Beginner Level - Make this race easy, without completely blowing away the field, with one of the cars used by the AI. Examples would be the NSX '01, Skyline GT-R '93, V8S '91. Program the AI so that they give you an easily won race but without blowing the field away. Right now, if I wanted to use one of those cars, I would completely wipe the field. That is not realistic. Neither is using the power limiter all the way down to 50% or down grading tires. (The AI run on SH, so why should I have to handicap myself just because PD is too lazy to correctly program the AI) You should be able to have a fun competitive race that's pretty easy to win using one of these cars or cars around the same PP. This same idea should be followed for the other two events. Progressively getting harder up to the Expert Level event all the while using cars that the AI is using. PD could do this is the simply reprogrammed the AI for each of these events. Like I said before, I understand these are supposed to be easy, but they are easy in all the wrong ways and makes the game play like an arcade racer, even though PD claims simulation. I think PD should take a few notes from GAS as far as AI programming goes, they could learn a lot."

I don't know what more I can say to make my point any clearer to you. Las t time, I don't have a problem at all with the events being easy. My problem is using unrealistically low HP cars to win these races. Period. If you can understand my point now, well then there is nothing more I can say to help you to.

PS Just fyi, I haven't been playing GT for 15 years, only since the launch of GT5. Before that, I had zero gaming experience as far as racing games go.

I understand your point completely, what i am saying that it doesnt matter. Because the event is to be approachable to any skill level, in virtually any car. Quite frankly the PP of the AI cars is moot, as they do no drive anywhere near their potential, because this is for "beginners". This isnt about being "realistic", this is about having an online beginners series that is approachable to any skill level. When you start to ramp up the AI to "realistic" levels of competitiveness with PP parity, its no longer a beginner event, its an advanced event. Hell, if the AI were as good as even a club level amature racing driver in the real world, let alone a FIA Super License holding Pro, this game would be impossibly inaccessable for about 90% of its player base. Example: See any hard core racing sim on the PC.

To me this is like complaining that the Sunday Cup isnt challenging enough...who cares, its the Sunday Cup, its not meant for experienced racers. Because, guess what, we can win races in a sub-par car through our driving skill against potato AI opponents. Just like if Mark Webber showed up at a Go-Kart track with a bunch of tweeners in the high HP karts, and he was put into the lowest power kart at the track. He would still win by a country mile, and would resort to screwing around in his kart just to keep himself entertained.

This race is not meant to be a challenge to you or me, its meant to be an easy race for people who suck at this game to win at, so they can get some of the cash bonuses that come from running the seasonal events.

 

[2cam16]

Gonna try this again with some stock cars. This was too easy.

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

I understand your point completely, what i am saying that it doesnt matter. Because the event is to be approachable to any skill level, in virtually any car. Quite frankly the PP of the AI cars is moot, as they do no drive anywhere near their potential, because this is for "beginners". This isnt about being "realistic", this is about having an online beginners series that is approachable to any skill level. When you start to ramp up the AI to "realistic" levels of competitiveness with PP parity, its no longer a beginner event, its an advanced event. Hell, if the AI were as good as even a club level amature racing driver in the real world, let alone a FIA Super License holding Pro, this game would be impossibly inaccessable for about 90% of its player base. Example: See any hard core racing sim on the PC.

To me this is like complaining that the Sunday Cup isnt challenging enough...who cares, its the Sunday Cup, its not meant for experienced racers. Because, guess what, we can win races in a sub-par car through our driving skill against potato AI opponents. Just like if Mark Webber showed up at a Go-Kart track with a bunch of tweeners in the high HP karts, and he was put into the lowest power kart at the track. He would still win by a country mile, and would resort to screwing around in his kart just to keep himself entertained.

This race is not meant to be a challenge to you or me, its meant to be an easy race for people who suck at this game to win at, so they can get some of the cash bonuses that come from running the seasonal events.

I see what you're saying, but just don't agree with it. We could go on debating this forever but at this point, its just best to agree to disagree.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I understand your point completely, what i am saying that it doesnt matter. Because the event is to be approachable to any skill level, in virtually any car. Quite frankly the PP of the AI cars is moot, as they do no drive anywhere near their potential, because this is for "beginners". This isnt about being "realistic", this is about having an online beginners series that is approachable to any skill level. When you start to ramp up the AI to "realistic" levels of competitiveness with PP parity, its no longer a beginner event, its an advanced event. Hell, if the AI were as good as even a club level amature racing driver in the real world, let alone a FIA Super License holding Pro, this game would be impossibly inaccessable for about 90% of its player base. Example: See any hard core racing sim on the PC.

I think it does matter what cars race against what in all series at all levels, but it depends on how one envisions the GT series. If one sees it more as an arcade game then it's fine the way it is. But if you want more of a simulator which is still accessible for pilots of all skill levels, you need to add difficulty levels. A beginner should be able to take a Vitz, race against a field of Vitz's and still win but feel like he's in a race. I should be able to do the same thing. The answer is in difficulty adjustments and being able to fine tune the AI's aggressiveness, passing etc. Otherwise you end up with a career mode that starts off sucking for dozens of races for experience drivers and is a complete waste of time. Adding proper difficulty sliders (see PC sims) makes the entire career enjoyable for everyone, instead of a one-size-fits-all, which really fits no one well.

To me this is like complaining that the Sunday Cup isnt challenging enough...who cares, its the Sunday Cup, its not meant for experienced racers. Because, guess what, we can win races in a sub-par car through our driving skill against potato AI opponents. Just like if Mark Webber showed up at a Go-Kart track with a bunch of tweeners in the high HP karts, and he was put into the lowest power kart at the track. He would still win by a country mile, and would resort to screwing around in his kart just to keep himself entertained.

Sorry but your karting analogy doesn't hold water. Top level club karters in identical equipment would give anyone, including Mark Webber, a run for his money. I raced karts for several years against the likes of Scott Goodyear, Ludwig Heimrath Jr. and others who made careers out of high level racing and there were many of us that were competitive with them. The reason they went on to careers in racing and not us was money or connections or both. We showed up at the track with one kart, one motor in a station wagon and were competitive. Goodyear showed up with a trailer full of karts and motors, lots of tires, a mechanic etc. Top level kart racers are very, very fast and very, very skilled.

 

[Buck-O]

I think it does matter what cars race against what in all series at all levels, but it depends on how one envisions the GT series. If one sees it more as an arcade game then it's fine the way it is. But if you want more of a simulator which is still accessible for pilots of all skill levels, you need to add difficulty levels. A beginner should be able to take a Vitz, race against a field of Vitz's and still win but feel like he's in a race. I should be able to do the same thing. The answer is in difficulty adjustments and being able to fine tune the AI's aggressiveness, passing etc. Otherwise you end up with a career mode that starts off sucking for dozens of races for experience drivers and is a complete waste of time. Adding proper difficulty sliders (see PC sims) makes the entire career enjoyable for everyone, instead of a one-size-fits-all, which really fits no one well.

Again, its a "beginner" race. The cars could be giant bananas with wheels. I expect the difficulty to be set to -1. I dont disagree with what you are saying about "one-size-fits-all" AI though. But again, i think moving GT to far towards the PC Sim crowd would do more harm than good. And, while its far from perfect, the Forza "Drivatar" AI system is a little closer to where i would like GT to be, in terms of feeling "in the race" with similarly skilled and semi competent AI. But, as far as i am aware, Turn10 holds several patents on their "Drivatar" system, so the likelyhood of that style of AI (i.e. something with a similar learning style) coming to GT, is pretty slim to none.

Sorry but your karting analogy doesn't hold water. Top level club karters in identical equipment would give anyone, including Mark Webber, a run for his money. I raced karts for several years against the likes of Scott Goodyear, Ludwig Heimrath Jr. and others who made careers out of high level racing and there were many of us that were competitive with them. The reason they went on to careers in racing and not us was money or connections or both. We showed up at the track with one kart, one motor in a station wagon and were competitive. Goodyear showed up with a trailer full of karts and motors, lots of tires, a mechanic etc. Top level kart racers are very, very fast and very, very skilled.

You missed everything i said in its entirety here, not the least of which, was the point. Obviously you missed the part where i said "dumb tweener kids in fast karts". Im not talking about "near enough to might as well be pro" so called "Amateur" Kart Racers in 125cc Shifters. I am literally talking about noob kids from off the street, who probably dont have drivers licenses yet, being put into the fastest rental karts a warehouse kart track has, while Webber is put into the lowest "kid friendly" underpowered Karts they have, and still winning by a long margin.

Or another analogy, back when i was big into R/C Racing, we had a regional "fast guy" at our track. One day a factory driver showed up for a meet and greet, the challenge was laid out to drive against our local fast guy. But to make it interesting, the factory driver installed a shoe box on his car instead of a Touring Car shell. Needless to say the factory driver still won by well over a half a lap with a brick on his car.

Or another example. A friend of mine was taking a motorcycle road racing class. He had just got a race prepped Kawi 600RR from a retired racer, and was keen to go out and learn some better racing and suspension techniques. Now, keep in mind he had been riding performance street bikes for well over 15 years at this point, and was an advanced rider. He signs up for this school, goes through some instruction, makes some suspension changes, did some laps, tweaked some more, and long story short, before the end of the day, had clocked the fastest lap of the session. He was really feeling good about himself, and his riding. He decided to make a couple more suspension adjustments, and push one for another hard lap, to try and beat his previous personal best. While he was in the middle of this hot lap, blowing past everyone else, really feeling in the groove on his riding, tucking into a long sweeping corner, getting his knee down, and slowly turning up the power...he hears an odd sound next to him, and looks over his shoulder. And here, mid corner, is one of the instructors (Tommy Hayden), on a bone stock Yamaha R6, fresh off the show room floor, with hardly scrubbed in street tires, on the outside, virtually sitting straight up, giving him a thumbs up, and an A-OK, and launching the little R6 past him like hes standing still.

The point is, good drivers will always be able to blow the doors off of the mediocre, even in underpowered, or under rated equipment. Its a matter of skill, and feel, and either you ahve it, or you dont. Those who dont, are who the beginner seasonal events are catered to.

There is no way, any of us who put any real effort into chasing lap times, would get any kind of challenge out of running a "beginner" class event. No matter what, it will be boring to us, and a total walk in the park. Even if we run cars that are completely outclassed by the supposed PP limit the AI cars are using. In this example, we are the Pro drivers, and the AI is the average moron.

Meanwhile, if the average moron, who knows nothing about racing techniques, lines, etc., steps into that race in the exact same car we just walked the field with, they would struggle to get out of last place. If they used an equal PP car, they might still struggle to find a rhythm to win, without trying it a couple of times.

Its all about different races for different skill levels. We, advanced players like you and I, arent supposed to be challenged by the beginner races. Which is why i bring drift cars to them and screw around on economy tires. I will take the cash and the paint, and make the most of it with what it offers. But i dont expect a challenge, because i am not a beginner.

So i said all that to say this...complaining about AI in a BEGINNER challenge, when you are an ADVANCED skill driver, is completely and totally absurd.

 

[joeledward]

Again, its a "beginner" race. The cars could be giant bananas with wheels. I expect the difficulty to be set to -1. I dont disagree with what you are saying about "one-size-fits-all" AI though. But again, i think moving GT to far towards the PC Sim crowd would do more harm than good. And, while its far from perfect, the Forza "Drivatar" AI system is a little closer to where i would like GT to be, in terms of feeling "in the race" with similarly skilled and semi competent AI. But, as far as i am aware, Turn10 holds several patents on their "Drivatar" system, so the likelyhood of that style of AI (i.e. something with a similar learning style) coming to GT, is pretty slim to none.



You missed everything i said in its entirety here, not the least of which, was the point. Obviously you missed the part where i said "dumb tweener kids in fast karts". Im not talking about "near enough to might as well be pro" so called "Amateur" Kart Racers in 125cc Shifters. I am literally talking about noob kids from off the street, who probably dont have drivers licenses yet, being put into the fastest rental karts a warehouse kart track has, while Webber is put into the lowest "kid friendly" underpowered Karts they have, and still winning by a long margin.

Or another analogy, back when i was big into R/C Racing, we had a regional "fast guy" at our track. One day a factory driver showed up for a meet and greet, the challenge was laid out to drive against our local fast guy. But to make it interesting, the factory driver installed a shoe box on his car instead of a Touring Car shell. Needless to say the factory driver still won by well over a half a lap with a brick on his car.

Or another example. A friend of mine was taking a motorcycle road racing class. He had just got a race prepped Kawi 600RR from a retired racer, and was keen to go out and learn some better racing and suspension techniques. Now, keep in mind he had been riding performance street bikes for well over 15 years at this point, and was an advanced rider. He signs up for this school, goes through some instruction, makes some suspension changes, did some laps, tweaked some more, and long story short, before the end of the day, had clocked the fastest lap of the session. He was really feeling good about himself, and his riding. He decided to make a couple more suspension adjustments, and push one for another hard lap, to try and beat his previous personal best. While he was in the middle of this hot lap, blowing past everyone else, really feeling in the groove on his riding, tucking into a long sweeping corner, getting his knee down, and slowly turning up the power...he hears an odd sound next to him, and looks over his shoulder. And here, mid corner, is one of the instructors (Tommy Hayden), on a bone stock Yamaha R6, fresh off the show room floor, with hardly scrubbed in street tires, on the outside, virtually sitting straight up, giving him a thumbs up, and an A-OK, and launching the little R6 past him like hes standing still.

The point is, good drivers will always be able to blow the doors off of the mediocre, even in underpowered, or under rated equipment. Its a matter of skill, and feel, and either you ahve it, or you dont. Those who dont, are who the beginner seasonal events are catered to.

There is no way, any of us who put any real effort into chasing lap times, would get any kind of challenge out of running a "beginner" class event. No matter what, it will be boring to us, and a total walk in the park. Even if we run cars that are completely outclassed by the supposed PP limit the AI cars are using. In this example, we are the Pro drivers, and the AI is the average moron.

Meanwhile, if the average moron, who knows nothing about racing techniques, lines, etc., steps into that race in the exact same car we just walked the field with, they would struggle to get out of last place. If they used an equal PP car, they might still struggle to find a rhythm to win, without trying it a couple of times.

Its all about different races for different skill levels. We, advanced players like you and I, arent supposed to be challenged by the beginner races. Which is why i bring drift cars to them and screw around on economy tires. I will take the cash and the paint, and make the most of it with what it offers. But i dont expect a challenge, because i am not a beginner.

So i said all that to say this...complaining about AI in a BEGINNER challenge, when you are an ADVANCED skill driver, is completely and totally absurd.

"HERE, HERE " well said 👍
I enjoy it for what it is , not lament for what it isn't ( Hope that makes sense)

Try and have some "FUN" (remember that )

 

[Johnnypenso]

Again, its a "beginner" race. The cars could be giant bananas with wheels. I expect the difficulty to be set to -1. I dont disagree with what you are saying about "one-size-fits-all" AI though. But again, i think moving GT to far towards the PC Sim crowd would do more harm than good. And, while its far from perfect, the Forza "Drivatar" AI system is a little closer to where i would like GT to be, in terms of feeling "in the race" with similarly skilled and semi competent AI. But, as far as i am aware, Turn10 holds several patents on their "Drivatar" system, so the likelyhood of that style of AI (i.e. something with a similar learning style) coming to GT, is pretty slim to none.

I'm not sure you understand how difficulty levels work with AI. This is about making GT into a driving/racing sim that works for everybody at every skill level which it most certainly does not now. Players should not have to handicap themselves to the point of ridiculousness in order to cross the finish line at the same time as the fastest AI, we should each of us be able to pick a difficulty level that suits us and run most or all of the races at that level and find competitive racing throughout the field and have a challenging race whether it's beginner level or pro.

You missed everything i said in its entirety here, not the least of which, was the point. Obviously you missed the part where i said "dumb tweener kids in fast karts". Im not talking about "near enough to might as well be pro" so called "Amateur" Kart Racers in 125cc Shifters. I am literally talking about noob kids from off the street, who probably dont have drivers licenses yet, being put into the fastest rental karts a warehouse kart track has, while Webber is put into the lowest "kid friendly" underpowered Karts they have, and still winning by a long margin.

Its all about different races for different skill levels. We, advanced players like you and I, arent supposed to be challenged by the beginner races. Which is why i bring drift cars to them and screw around on economy tires. I will take the cash and the paint, and make the most of it with what it offers. But i dont expect a challenge, because i am not a beginner.

So i said all that to say this...complaining about AI in a BEGINNER challenge, when you are an ADVANCED skill driver, is completely and totally absurd.

I didn't miss everything you said you just need to be more specific because you made a very general statement. But I disagree that we aren't supposed to be or can't be challenged by the beginner races. There's no reason we can't be, all we need are difficulty sliders and sliders for AI characteristics. There's no need to lock experienced players out of enjoying the beginner races at all.

"HERE, HERE " well said 👍
I enjoy it for what it is , not lament for what it isn't ( Hope that makes sense)

Try and have some "FUN" (remember that )

Good for you. Some of the rest of us enjoy competitive racing as opposed to, "Oh well, this is what we have so I better make do", which seems to be a common sentiment when discussing GT's shortfalls.

 

[joeledward]

I'm not sure you understand how difficulty levels work with AI. This is about making GT into a driving/racing sim that works for everybody at every skill level which it most certainly does not now. Players should not have to handicap themselves to the point of ridiculousness in order to cross the finish line at the same time as the fastest AI, we should each of us be able to pick a difficulty level that suits us and run most or all of the races at that level and find competitive racing throughout the field and have a challenging race whether it's beginner level or pro.



I didn't miss everything you said you just need to be more specific because you made a very general statement. But I disagree that we aren't supposed to be or can't be challenged by the beginner races. There's no reason we can't be, all we need are difficulty sliders and sliders for AI characteristics. There's no need to lock experienced players out of enjoying the beginner races at all.

Good for you. Some of the rest of us enjoy competitive racing as opposed to, "Oh well, this is what we have so I better make do", which seems to be a common sentiment when discussing GT's shortfalls.

Hi Johnny (man do you ever sleep?)

I'm not sure you understand how difficulty levels work with AI. This is about making GT into a driving/racing sim that works for everybody at every skill level which it most certainly does not now. Players should not have to handicap themselves to the point of ridiculousness in order to cross the finish line at the same time as the fastest AI, we should each of us be able to pick a difficulty level that suits us and run most or all of the races at that level and find competitive racing throughout the field and have a challenging race whether it's beginner level or pro.



I didn't miss everything you said you just need to be more specific because you made a very general statement. But I disagree that we aren't supposed to be or can't be challenged by the beginner races. There's no reason we can't be, all we need are difficulty sliders and sliders for AI characteristics. There's no need to lock experienced players out of enjoying the beginner races at all.

Good for you. Some of the rest of us enjoy competitive racing as opposed to, "Oh well, this is what we have so I better make do", which seems to be a common sentiment when discussing GT's shortfalls.

Johnny , I enjoy competitive racing as well , but I don't expect it in a "BEGINNER" event. The intermediate and expert levels are in effect the sliders that you desire so much.
Yes Johnny each to their own and you have made it quite clear that you no longer enjoy or "PLAY" the game "Good for you" Oh on topic....I am enjoying this seasonal with as many low powered and "non competitive" cars as I possibly can.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Hi Johnny (man do you ever sleep?)

Johnny , I enjoy competitive racing as well , but I don't expect it in a "BEGINNER" event. The intermediate and expert levels are in effect the sliders that you desire so much.
Yes Johnny each to their own and you have made it quite clear that you no longer enjoy or "PLAY" the game "Good for you"

Plenty of time to sleep when I'm dead

I can't see why anyone would advocate some programmer sitting in a cubicle in Japan deciding the difficulty levels of racing for 10 million people with the push of a button because that's really what you're doing. I can't see why anyone would advocate for not having difficulty sliders in a racing game when all racing games since Atari have difficulty sliders. Sorry, don't get it. Sounds to me like people just want to defend PD and their choices regardless of reason, logic and the potential for something much more suitable for all players.

By the way, can you show me where I made it quite clear that I no longer enjoy or play the game or are you just leaping to that conclusions because I have criticisms about the game?

 

[joeledward]

Plenty of time to sleep when I'm dead

I can't see why anyone would advocate some programmer sitting in a cubicle in Japan deciding the difficulty levels of racing for 10 million people with the push of a button because that's really what you're doing. I can't see why anyone would advocate for not having difficulty sliders in a racing game when all racing games since Atari have difficulty sliders. Sorry, don't get it. Sounds to me like people just want to defend PD and their choices regardless of reason, logic and the potential for something much more suitable for all players.

By the way, can you show me where I made it quite clear that I no longer enjoy or play the game or are you just leaping to that conclusions because I have criticisms about the game?

Johnny I don't defend PD or advocate not having difficulty sliders ( can't remember ever saying that ) Just said" I enjoy the game as it is."

Yeah nah can't recall that post Don't know where I got that Idea from Yeah think I must have leaped at that one
Doing these seasonals and TT,s by the way ?

Good luck with your dream of a GT that is all and everything that you ever wanted it to be ( yeah like thats ever gonna happen)

Thanks for the banter Johnny I'll get back to playing the game