A-Spec PP590 German Touring Car Championship

[Barra333]

The problem with comparing pace of wheel vs DS3 is the user groups for each. Generally, the more dedicated players will invest in a wheel, while the more casual players are more likely to stick with the sticks, so to speak. Obviously, there are exceptions when a DS3 user is super quick, or a casual gamer with money to burn gets a wheel and plods around.

Think of a sports analogy (assuming everyone was paying for own gear) - what brand of football boots do players use? The casual park player may have a pair of ASDA home brand boots, while the guy in the EPL has the expensive Nike/Adidas/whatever. There is no way you are going to argue that an expensive pair of boots will make you good is there? But the better/more dedicated player will be more likely to spend the money. Yes, there may be a few ASDA boot wearers in the EPL, and a few park footy players in expensive gear, but again they would be exceptions.

Of course, the steering/throttle inputs with a wheel are more precise, but surviving a slide is easier with a DS3. At the end of the day, once they are used to the input method, the best players will be at the top, regardless of what they use.

 

[SirAlanClive]

White. End of discussion.
*snip*
Some people just aren't as fast as someone like Amo, Stotty, Bandit, Doodle, or countless others.

Hey! Your wrong! It's blue
Sorry, couldn't resist. I agree with everything you said and have to add:
@Adrenaline and Ills1999

If you two spent less time typing and more time driving....

You guys seem to be filling the void left by Cargo and Dalone.

Wheel users have a great advantage because we think we're real cool and hot and the added self confidence just eats away at those seconds. You should see me throwing my car around. My seven year old thinks I'm a god...

 

[Barra333]

Wheel users have a great advantage because we think we're real cool and hot and the added self confidence just eats away at those seconds. You should see me throwing my car around. My seven year old thinks I'm a god...

end of discussion.

 

[Dalone]

Sir Allan;

"You guys seem to be filling the void left by Cargo and Dalone."

~

Aha, you rang? OK, now that I've been invited I'll end this discussion without resorting to untested facts and figures.

The following fact clearly shows that a wheel is superior to the DS3 for the vast majority of players in the vast majority of races.

And lets face it, only a very brave (think,Yes Minister) person would dispute what we all already know, which is that a wheel is faster than a controller.

~~

Stotty;

"It certainly is for me.... when I 1st got a wheel (back in GT5P), and I got used to it, I cut well over a second off my lap times at Suzuka, and that's when I was good on the DS3. Nowadays, I reckon I'm >1s slower for every 1 minute of lap time if I use the pad."

~~

Who here would seriously argue with that? Say that what Stotty said was incorrect?

Cargo is a faster driver than I am, end of story, I know that and I expect all you know that too. And while we parry and thrust here that fact remains.

Stotty's statement remains as the definitive answer to any reasonable questioner.

 

[Ills1999]

You clearly aren't intelligent enough to continue on with the level of debate. Best of luck in your alternate endeavors.
Stay in school kids.

I'm intelligent enough to recognize both the straw man and red herring logical fallacies and to shut them down when they raise their ugly heads. You are CLEARLY intelligent enough to know that you are engaging in both those fallacies AND adding the ad hominem, as well. That only wins arguments in your own mind.

 

[Ills1999]

The problem with comparing pace of wheel vs DS3 is the user groups for each. Generally, the more dedicated players will invest in a wheel, while the more casual players are more likely to stick with the sticks, so to speak. Obviously, there are exceptions when a DS3 user is super quick, or a casual gamer with money to burn gets a wheel and plods around.

Think of a sports analogy (assuming everyone was paying for own gear) - what brand of football boots do players use? The casual park player may have a pair of ASDA home brand boots, while the guy in the EPL has the expensive Nike/Adidas/whatever. There is no way you are going to argue that an expensive pair of boots will make you good is there? But the better/more dedicated player will be more likely to spend the money. Yes, there may be a few ASDA boot wearers in the EPL, and a few park footy players in expensive gear, but again they would be exceptions.

Of course, the steering/throttle inputs with a wheel are more precise, but surviving a slide is easier with a DS3. At the end of the day, once they are used to the input method, the best players will be at the top, regardless of what they use.

The argument is that any given player, regardless of skill level or accounting for skill level, can better approach that slide threshold, stay near that threshold for longer, can more accurately control the vehicle trajectory past that threshold in a way that is advantageous. You're pointing out that, after the user fails at all of the above, then they'd be better off with a stick.

 

[Adrenaline]

I'm intelligent enough...

Maybe in your head, maybe in real life. But the way you portray yourself on these forums, is that of a child. I'm more than willing to carry on logical debates within these forums among users who can prove their worth both on an intellectual level, as well as that of respect. You have not only yet to do so, but have done the exact opposite in my opinion; and that is not based solely on this discussion thus far. I've seen previous posts of yours that did not even involve me, that gave the same impression. You aren't an adult responding in a civilized manner. You're a child who ignores the data at hand, refuses to reason and repeats themselves regardless of what occurs throughout the entire process. You are close minded and enter every debate with an unwavering mindset. There's no point in wasting time with people of that manner, because they not only refuse to learn, but they actually have no desire to.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

 

[SunsetSailor]

Another otherwise fantastic seasonal ruined by SRF! Please PD, i need SRF to be off. I cannot drive with it on!!

 

[Ills1999]

Maybe in your head, maybe in real life. But the way you portray yourself on these forums, is that of a child. I'm more than willing to carry on logical debates within these forums among users who can prove their worth both on an intellectual level, as well as that of respect. You have not only yet to do so, but have done the exact opposite in my opinion; and that is not based solely on this discussion thus far. I've seen previous posts of yours that did not even involve me, that gave the same impression. You aren't an adult responding in a civilized manner. You're a child who ignores the data at hand, refuses to reason and repeats themselves regardless of what occurs throughout the entire process. You are close minded and enter every debate with an unwavering mindset. There's no point in wasting time with people of that manner, because they not only refuse to learn, but they actually have no desire to.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Nice try buddy, you have engaged in derisive behavior numerous times. We'll try this one more time...

Fact: A wheel gives a person more precise control than does a stick.

Fact: The closer a person can push and hold a vehicle to the limits of traction, the quicker lap times can be cut.


Again, this isn't a statistical or probability question. It's a physical reality.

I don't question your intelligence, I question your mental health and your character.

 

[SunsetSailor]

Maybe in your head, maybe in real life. But the way you portray yourself on these forums, is that of a child. I'm more than willing to carry on logical debates within these forums among users who can prove their worth both on an intellectual level, as well as that of respect. You have not only yet to do so, but have done the exact opposite in my opinion; and that is not based solely on this discussion thus far. I've seen previous posts of yours that did not even involve me, that gave the same impression. You aren't an adult responding in a civilized manner. You're a child who ignores the data at hand, refuses to reason and repeats themselves regardless of what occurs throughout the entire process. You are close minded and enter every debate with an unwavering mindset. There's no point in wasting time with people of that manner, because they not only refuse to learn, but they actually have no desire to.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Well i think if you've used a wheel before and experienced the more accurate feel for it, you can be much better with a controller than if you've never used a wheel. But you're right in the sense that pressing a button is always going to take less time than turning a wheel.

Nice try buddy, you have engaged in derisive behavior numerous times. We'll try this one more time...

Fact: A wheel gives a person more precise control than does a stick.

Fact: The closer a person can push and hold a vehicle to the limits of traction, the quicker lap times can be cut.

Again, this isn't a statistical or probability question. It's a physical reality.

I don't question your intelligence, I question your mental health and your character.

I've used both and i agree. My lap times are 5 seconds faster with a wheel...20 seconds faster on nurb'ring.

 

[brianwong]

I thought this thread was about the 590pp DTM Seasonal

 

[Machinehead]

I thought this thread was about the 590pp DTM Seasonal

You'd think so, what with the title and all.

As the thread has slowed down a bit, now seems to be a good time to summarize for those coming late to the party.

This seasonal was started shortly after the GT5 version 2.10 update changed the PP system, but while it was active another update reverted back to the previous PP system. The effect was quite huge as a Mercedes 190 with 436PP under the version 2.10 PP became a 492PP care with the reverted PP.

Low PP Car: The Mercedes 190 E Evo II Touring Car '92 was the considered best car to use to get a low PP before the change, but as the PP changes affect different cars differently I'm not sure it is still the best choice. Someone else may have posted an answer to that earlier, but as I'd decided to keep using the same car I may have just forgotten if they did.
If it is still the Mercedes 190, I can't say that it is the same difficulty to get a 492PP under the 2.11 system as it was with to get a 436PP with the 2.10 system as the car to beat changed from an Abt Audi to a Mercedes CLK with the change from 2.10 to 2.11, and one is presumably harder to beat than the other, though I'm not sure which.

Lowest PPs: Partial scan I saw Lewis_Hamilton doing all at 425PP with little trouble, Cape Ring at 412PP, Dalone with 420PP at Nurburgring, all with Mercedes 190, all page 7.

Tunes: Saw Adrenaline one for Mercedes also on page 7.

Can someone say if Mercedes 190 is still best for PP, tell how the rabbits compare, or tell of other tunes/ low PPs.

I did all with Mercedes 190 @ ~430-440/490-500 PP.
v2.10, 438PP @ Madrid
v2.10, 436PP @ Laguna Seca (which would be a 492PP with v2.11)
v2.11, 500PP @ Nurburgring (no Chicane cut, but playing bumper cars as usual)
v2.11, 490PP @ Cape Ring
v2.11, 500PP @ Eifel
No ballast, min aero, limited PP with power limiter, transmission was easily tuned to always be in the max power range, made alterations to Suspension and LSD, but have very little idea what I'm doing.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

I haven't seen anything lower than the 412PP (not 512) run I did at Cape Ring, but I haven't looked for any Youtube videos yet either.

I was going to upload the replay with the tune as well, but then PD changed the PP system again rendering such a replay useless. I believe my car is now 468PP after the update. It will still fetch a lot of money no doubt, but not the near 3.5 million that it once could.

I could upload it anyway if needs be, but as you say the rabbit cars have probably changed too. I have yet to run these races to see what the new required finishing time is on each race, that's if it has changed.

 

[Argon]

You'd think so, what with the title and all.

As the thread has slowed down a bit, now seems to be a good time to summarize for those coming late to the party.

This seasonal was started shortly after the GT5 version 2.10 update changed the PP system, but while it was active another update reverted back to the previous PP system. The effect was quite huge as a Mercedes 190 with 436PP under the version 2.10 PP became a 492PP care with the reverted PP.

Low PP Car: The Mercedes 190 E Evo II Touring Car '92(can be bought at new car dealer) was the considered best car to use to get a low PP before the change, but as the PP changes affect different cars differently I'm not sure it is still the best choice. Someone else may have posted an answer to that earlier, but as I'd decided to keep using the same car I may have just forgotten if they did.
If it is still the Mercedes 190, I can't say that it is the same difficulty to get a 492PP under the 2.11 system as it was with to get a 436PP with the 2.10 system as the car to beat changed from an Abt Audi to a Mercedes CLK with the change from 2.10 to 2.11, and one is presumably harder to beat than the other, though I'm not sure which.

Lowest PPs: Partial scan I saw Lewis_Hamilton doing all at 525PP with little trouble, Cape Ring at 512PP, Dalone with 520PP at Nurburgring, all with Mercedes 190, all page 7.

Tunes: Saw Adrenaline one for Mercedes also on page 7.

Can someone say if Mercedes 190 is still best for PP, tell how the rabbits compare, or tell of other tunes/ low PPs.

I did all with Mercedes 190 @ ~430-440/490-500 PP.
v2.10, 438PP @ Madrid
v2.10, 436PP @ Laguna Seca (which would be a 492PP with v2.11)
v2.11, 500PP @ Nurburgring (no Chicane cut, but playing bumper cars as usual)
v2.11, 490PP @ Cape Ring
v2.11, 500PP @ Eifel
No ballast, min aero, limited PP with power limiter, transmission was easily tuned to always be in the max power range, made alterations to Suspension and LSD, but have very little idea what I'm doing.

Nice re-cap 👍 One thing though the Merc is not available from the New car dealership it is only available from the UCD or OCD. I still think the way to go is with the Merc 190.

 

[nowayback]

opel calibra touring was easiest for me, moneymaker after 2.11 update before it was the 190. calibra 480-485 pp over 2m. stock basically just trannny trick.

 

[Machinehead]

@Lewis_Hamilton_, Argon 56
Edited some pretty blatant misinformation there.

@Lewis_Hamilton_
I assumed that's what was going on when you never posted the tune/replay. I'd still be interested in what that 2.10 suspension tune was though.

 

[the2armedmen]

Is anyone doing the nurb race with anything lower than 460 pp? If so can we get a tune and what car to use. I'm in the vauxhall astra super touring car @ 460 pp right now

 

[light driver]

Well I did all these DTM races with all my different TCs....I have them all...I did both the 2.10 update and the 2.11 versions....Don`t recall exactlly all my pps, but 545pp on Madrid in the CLK on the 2.11 update....Easy enough, could have done it lower, but seriously....You guys are talking about 460pp??? Well aren`t You bragging a little??? I think I could do it in CLK with perhaps 525pp after a few goes, but 460pp?? Am I really THAT bad compared to You??? Or is there some differences in our PS3s, or the network etc....Come on, if You go 460pp, Your car is much slower than the rabbits up front....Prove it with a video-upload....And don`t fake it....Hey I`m using a standard sixaxis controller (with no dual choke crap)....

 

[mikeerfol]

I got the Lexus car and did it, really easy.

 

[the2armedmen]

At nurb you can cut the course and knock 6-10 seconds off every lap, not doable on any of the other races in the series tho. Times are around 2:05 every lap. Dont get ur panties in a bundle because you think you suck, drive better

 

[GSX1300R]

Just did a run at nurb lowering to 540, passed the leader on 4th lap. 1.4 million. I have always tried to max out pp as much as possible. should be able to drop pp quite a bit more. Now I can finally get that Ferrari f1.

 

[corviwulf]

Loved this series...ultra close racing ..but it always came down to me and the CLK at the end

 

[TF GT1 01]

What's SRF ?

 

[DurWinning]

What's SRF ?

SRF = Skid Recovery Force

 

[Musolini187]

At nurb you can cut the course and knock 6-10 seconds off every lap, not doable on any of the other races in the series tho. Times are around 2:05 every lap. Dont get ur panties in a bundle because you think you suck, drive better

i think thats the minimun lap time you need to beat it.

 

[the2armedmen]

i think thats the minimun lap time you need to beat it.

you sir are correct

 

[nowayback]

At nurb you can cut the course and knock 6-10 seconds off every lap, not doable on any of the other races in the series tho. Times are around 2:05 every lap. Dont get ur panties in a bundle because you think you suck, drive better

6-10 secs? i do it at 475 pp with vauxhaul 205-06 laps, shortcut about 5 secs(before finish). what are the other shortcuts? also cut thru gras a bit before that but it doesnt really save time, more so i dont screw up the sweeping left turn

 

[WeeRacingGuy]

Just my 2nd post, I think - first was to thank all you racing god types for all the amazing help you give us mere mortals with your tips, tunes and vids. Here's my take on this event from planet mediocre - no wheel or chair and not much skill!
All at nurb circuit
The 190 turns like a bus. Tried on pp525 and lost by half a min and only managed 8th
vx calibra. pp544. Lost by just over 9s and came 3rd.
vx astra. pp584. Win! At last. by 1.9s
Then thought i'd try out the Audi R8 LMS Race Car 09. At pp590. Won - surprise, surprise - by 9s. Best lap time was 2:03.169
Tried again at pp540. Best I could manage was 2nd with a time of 10:39.797. Best lap was 2:07.044
Just couldnt catch the CLK rabbits.
I dont know if my inability to do this race in the pp that some of you guys do it in is down to the changes or my lack of ability - maybe a bit of both.
Still made a fair bit of money out of, though!

 

[djrdx84]

2 on Eifel with R8 LMS race car....5 sec behind....whats the best car to best the clk 90..

 

[USARMYCOMBATVET]

2 on Eifel with R8 LMS race car....5 sec behind....whats the best car to best the clk 90..

BMW M3 GTR Race Car '01 is my choice for this seasonal. I could put it on share for you(if need be).