Abortion

[OZZYGT]

+ Rep





Ciao!

 

[Gen.]

Uh, you're an idiot. Don't you realize things aren't as cut-and-dry as you say? Why should a poor woman be forced to bring a baby that she can't support into the world? Seriously, think next time. There is no benefit to anyone involved if a poor black woman in Harlem gets pregnant and then she can't get an abortion because it's illegal. Abortion saves the woman's life, it prevents the unborn child from living an incredibly hard life that will most likely end up in crime.

The foster system is a joke, dude. Don't even.

That was utter, utter win. 👍

 

[FoolKiller]

Uh, you're an idiot. Don't you realize things aren't as cut-and-dry as you say? Why should a poor woman be forced to bring a baby that she can't support into the world? Seriously, think next time. There is no benefit to anyone involved if a poor black woman in Harlem gets pregnant and then she can't get an abortion because it's illegal. Abortion saves the woman's life, it prevents the unborn child from living an incredibly hard life that will most likely end up in crime.

If she's poor how can she afford an abortion?

The foster system is a joke, dude. Don't even.

Tell my wife that. It probably saved her life.

It has its problems, but it is a good system that helps many, many children.

 

[Danoff]

Mine is an easy one..can the Child think ? is the Brain developed enough to form a thought ? Can the Child survive outside the womb ?

If the answer is yes than that child deserves every human right available to those of us not still attached to an umbilical cord. This is the point where choice is now changed to responsibility.

Adult dogs have thoughts. Adult Dogs can survive outside a mother's womb. Is it murder when you accidently hit one with your car?

Deer have thoughts. Should it be murder to hunt deer?

How many animals can you list that have thoughts AND survive outside their mother's womb? If that's the basis for rights, we've got some work to do.

 

[ledhed]

Adult dogs have thoughts. Adult Dogs can survive outside a mother's womb. Is it murder when you accidently hit one with your car?

Deer have thoughts. Should it be murder to hunt deer?

How many animals can you list that have thoughts AND survive outside their mother's womb? If that's the basis for rights, we've got some work to do.

I don't consider animal rights equal to human rights . It is foolish for you to use that as a counter argument or to assume that an accidental death is considered murder.

Thats one of the least , well thought out , counter arguments I have ever seen you post....

Who kidnapped danoff and replaced him with this fella ????

 

[Danoff]

I don't consider animal rights equal to human rights .

I know. Why?

It is foolish for you to use that as a counter argument or to assume that an accidental death is considered murder.

Don't miss my point. Hunting deer is not accidental death.

 

[ledhed]

I know. Why?



Don't miss my point. Hunting deer is not accidental death.

First we must make a huge jump to assume deer have "thoughts " or any other animal for that matter in the way we define " thought " versus simple instinct to breath and to eat or to fight or flee. Is thought the ability to reason ?

Hunting deer is harvesting food . No different from picking corn . or hitting a cow in the head with a mallet .

If I new what point you were trying to make .... well maybe I'd argue it ...but please don't say your point is that animals and humans have the same rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Deer have the right to do whatever they like until opening day Nov. 29 2006 , then I will use my right and my rifle to attempt to harvest said deer to make steaks .

How any of this has to do with abortion or the fact that I consider a viable life to have rights and its host to have obligations and responsibility , is where you need to make a connection .

You asked me what I based my values on I attempted to make it clear.
Somehow it was obfuscated to include dogs and deer .



Spell check is a wonderfull thing . BTW I think you got really hung up on the " brain developed enough to have a thought " . And so have missed the forrest by seeing only the tree.
To further clarify..once the brain developes past the brain stem and the fetus has attained what we consider " consiousness " ...BTW the same determination a medical examiner uses to determine death..only in reverse. And the heart is beating and said "fetus" can survive outside the womb...even if it is with medical help , is to me when life begins .

 

[Danoff]

The bottom line is that you give humans rights because they're self-aware and deer are not. At what point do humans become self-aware?

 

[ledhed]

The bottom line is that you give humans rights because they're self-aware and deer are not. At what point do humans become self-aware?

When they get that first ice cold beer on friday night.


Truthfully I do not know for certain. And I know of no one that does.

 

[Danoff]

When they get that first ice cold beer on friday night.


Truthfully I do not know for certain. And I know of no one that does.

I'll tell you what I do know for certain, it doesn't happen prior to birth.

 

[ledhed]

I'll tell you what I do know for certain, it doesn't happen prior to birth.

Thats an opinion . What do you base it on ?


I know what I base mine on.

By Louise Knapp| Also by this reporter
12:55 PM Sep, 10, 2002

A device called SARA can detect and record fetal brain activity. That is a milestone for pediatrics, but the machine's most valuable feature lies in its potential to help reduce the number of children born with brain damage.

SARA, which stands for SQUID Array for Reproductive Assessment (SQUID, in turn, is shorthand for Superconducting Quantum Interference Device), uses a superconductor and pick-up coils cooled by liquid helium to detect tiny fluctuations in magnetic fields.


"A magnetic field is perpetually emanating from the heart and brain of the fetus. The pick-up coils pick up these signals," said Dr. Curtis Lowery of the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, where SARA was designed.

With SARA, doctors can measure how long the fetus takes to respond to light stimuli and so glean more information about the fetus' health.

Before SARA, doctors had to rely on monitoring fetal heart beat as an indication of neurological health.

"The fetus' heart rate should go up fast and down slow. It's squiggly with a lot of bumps," Lowery said. "If there is brain damage, then the heart rate is flat. It's like it is on auto-pilot."

http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,54944,00.html

The human brainstem is fashioned around the 7th week of gestation and matures in a caudal to rostral arc thereby forming the medulla, pons, and midbrain. The medulla mediates arousal, breathing, heart rate, and gross movement of the body and head, and medullary functions appear prior to those of the pons which precede those of the midbrain. Hence, by the 9th gestational week the fetus will display spontaneous movements, one week later takes its first breath, and by the 25th week demonstrates stimulus-induced heart rate accelerations. As the pons, which is later to mature, mediates arousal, body movements, and vestibular and vibroacoustic perception, from around the 20th to 27th weeks the fetus responds with arousal and body movements to vibroacoustic and loud sounds delivered to the maternal abdomen. The midbrain inferior-auditory followed by the superior-visual colliculi is the last to mature, and in conjunction with the lower brainstem makes fine auditory discriminations, and reacts to sound with fetal heart rate (FHR) accelerations, head turning, and eye movements--around the 36th week. When aroused the fetus also reacts with reflexive movements, head turning, FHR accelerations, and may fall asleep and display rapid eye movements. Thus fetal-cognitive motor activity, including auditory discrimination, orienting, the wake-sleep cycle, FHRs, and defensive reactions, appear to be under the reflexive control of the brainstem which also appears capable of learning-related activity.



FETAL BRAIN-BEHAVIOR AND COGNITIVE DEVELOPMENT

It is now well established that the human fetus is capable of some degree of behavioral complexity. In fact, as early as the 9th week of gestation the fetus is able to spontaneously move the extremities, head, and trunk (de Vries, Visser, & Prechtl, 1985). It has also been suggested that the near term fetus may be endowed with some degree of cognitive capability (e.g., Hepper & Shahidullah, 1994; Kisilevsky, Fearson & Muir, 1998). Cognition has been inferred based on alterations in fetal heart rate (FHR) and habituation to airborne sound (Kisilevsky & Muir, 1991), response-declines to
etc.

http://brainmind.com/FetalBrainDevelopment.html

For years, doctors who work in maternal and fetal medicine have had no way to detect brain activity in unborn children. Now, for the first time, researchers using a unique scanning device have shown that they can detect fetal brain activity in response to flashes of light transmitted through the mother's abdomen. With refinement, this technique may help physicians detect and prevent fetal brain damage resulting from maternal hypertension, diabetes, and other conditions. The work was supported by the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS) and appears in the September 7, 2002, issue of The Lancet. 1

The study is one of the first tests of a new device designed to study maternal and fetal physiology, including fetal brain activity, using magnetoencephalography (MEG) of the womb. It also is the first MEG study to use light, rather than pulses of sound, to stimulate the fetus.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/press_releases/pressrelease_fetal_brain_scanning_090502.htm

Introduction This study presents the first direct investigation of fetal brain activity in utero using fMRI. Human fetal brain activity is usually studied indirectly by monitoring the changes in fetal heart rate and associated fetal movements, although recently fetal MEG has been attempted’. fMRI offers a safe and relatively robust method of monitoring fetal brain activity. This has major implications for the study of fetal brain development, fetal learning strategies

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...fetal+brain+activity&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...+fetal+consciousness&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...+fetal+consciousness&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

Evolutionary theory posits that emotions necessary for survival will develop as early as possible during ontogeny. If starvation and injury are the greatest threats to newborn survival, then hunger and pain may be the earliest homeostatic emotions to develop in the fetus13, 14. Lastly, Lee et al. propose that activation of the sensory cortex is a necessary criterion for pain “perception” to occur in the fetus2. The lack of evidence for pain-specific thalamocortical connections in fetal life thus supports their claim against fetal pain. This line of reasoning, however, ignores clinical data showing that ablation or stimulation of the primary somatosensory cortex does not alter pain perception in adults, whereas thalamic ablation or stimulation does15-18.
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Pain is now viewed as a homeostatic emotion, with the thalamus playing a central role in pain processing and regulating the spinal-brainstem-spinal loops that mediate descending facilitation or inhibition depending on the context of pain14, 19. Fetal development of the thalamus occurs much earlier than the sensory cortex20-22, but functional evidence for thalamic sensory processing will require novel neuroimaging techniques23or the recording thalamic field potentials18fromfetuses. If cortical activity is not required for pain perception in adults, why should it be a necessary criterion for fetuses? Despite this caveat, robust cortical activity occurs in pretermneonates exposed to tactile or painful stimuli24, which may be correlates of sensory content or its context and certainly imply conscious perception

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache...+fetal+consciousness&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

 

[Danoff]

Thats an opinion . What do you base it on ?

The actions, responses to stimuli, and general brain development of young children. Are you claiming that fetuses are self-aware prior to birth?

 

[Pako]

Why would pro-choice individuals try to devalue human life to justify the termination of that life?

 

[ledhed]

The actions, responses to stimuli, and general brain development of young children. Are you claiming that fetuses are self-aware prior to birth?

I am claiming nothing . Science shows that a fetus has cognitive ability BEFORE leaving the birth canal.
what does that imply ? It just means that a fetus is capable of awareness...as capable as it is after it leaves the womb.

Its silly to assume otherwise. What do you think a switch gets turned on once the fetus leaves the uterus ? Brain development is ongoing while the fetus is in the uterus.

prematurely born babies are certainly aware...thats a scientific fact.


If you need more links I'll get them ...but it makes for rather dull reading.

 

[Danoff]

I am claiming nothing . Science shows that a fetus has cognitive ability BEFORE leaving the birth canal.
what does that imply ? It just means that a fetus is capable of awareness...as capable as it is after it leaves the womb.

Its silly to assume otherwise. What do you think a switch gets turned on once the fetus leaves the uterus ? Brain development is ongoing while the fetus is in the uterus.

prematurely born babies are certainly aware...thats a scientific fact.


If you need more links I'll get them ...but it makes for rather dull reading.

No more aware than a dog. They don't become SELF aware until much later - after being born. Until they're older, I'd say probably even a year old, they're not more intelligent or aware than many animals we don't afford rights.

Don't lose me here, keep your eye on the ball. I'm talking about brain activity ABOVE and BEYOND that which many animals have that we DON'T offer rights to. A brain wave, a reflex... these are things even a squirrel can pull off.

Why would pro-choice individuals try to devalue human life to justify the termination of that life?

I'm not devaluing anything, I'm trying to reconcile hypocritical behavior.

 

[ledhed]

No more aware than a dog. They don't become SELF aware until much later - after being born. Until they're older, I'd say probably even a year old, they're not more intelligent or aware than many animals we don't afford rights.

Don't lose me here, keep your eye on the ball. I'm talking about brain activity ABOVE and BEYOND that which many animals have that we DON'T offer rights to. A brain wave, a reflex... these are things even a squirrel can pull off.



I'm not devaluing anything, I'm trying to reconcile hypocritical behavior.

Cognitive behavior has been measured in the fetus . A baby born at 7 months old shows awareness ...it shows the same evidence of thought that YOU DO . A human fetus has a brain that develops into a HUMAN brain the very thing that makes a deer a steak and a dog a pet and a human the hunter and the master. the cognitive center of the brain is active in a fetus.
It becomes active as it develops.

 

[Danoff]

Cognitive behavior has been measured in the fetus . A baby born at 7 months old shows awareness ...it shows the same evidence of thought that YOU DO .

It most certainly does not. I'm insulted... when was the last time you saw a fetus typing a post on GTPlanet? That's evidence of thought - though, granted, not necessarily intelligent thought.

A human fetus has a brain that develops into a HUMAN brain the very thing that makes a deer a steak and a dog a pet and a human the hunter and the master. the cognitive center of the brain is active in a fetus.
It becomes active as it develops.

I don't care what the fetus develops into. Yes I'm aware that I developed from a fetus, thank you, no need to remind me. What I DO care about is the fact that rights are based on self-awareness (not just awareness, self-awareness). Why then must we extend rights to unborn children when they don't have the cognitive power of a cat?

 

[Klostrophobic]

If she's poor how can she afford an abortion?


Tell my wife that. It probably saved her life.

It has its problems, but it is a good system that helps many, many children.

If you're faced with the possibility of raising a child for 18 years on limited income, I think you can scrap together the funds to get an abortion. How much could an abortion seriously cost?

 

[ledhed]

It most certainly does not. I'm insulted... when was the last time you saw a fetus typing a post on GTPlanet? That's evidence of thought - though, granted, not necessarily intelligent thought.



I don't care what the fetus develops into. Yes I'm aware that I developed from a fetus, thank you, no need to remind me. What I DO care about is the fact that rights are based on self-awareness (not just awareness, self-awareness). Why then must we extend rights to unborn children when they don't have the cognitive power of a cat?

The same reason we give those rights to a 6 month old premature baby .

If your level of thought and quality of thoughts were a measure of " worth " or if you deserve " rights " the large part of this entire forum would not qualify .

I'm surprised you are assuming a fetus at 6 month old only has the cognitive powers of a cat. I'm not used to you jumping to conclusions.


http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0030050

Here is your reason for not being a source of food and being able of " thought "

http://biology.about.com/library/organs/brain/blcortex.htm

This is what separates us from " cats " .

http://www.ifisiol.unam.mx/Brain/cercox.htm

proof of the development of said cerebral cortex in a fetus.

The fetus has a " thought" center . It receives stimuli to this area in the uterus. It is capable of " thought" the mechanism exist for it.

You are attempting to weigh a human life by the value or " quality " of its " thoughts "

http://www.ajnr.org/cgi/content/abstract/22/1/184

Thats a very slippery slope you are climbing my friend.

Abstract:

Objective

To identify sonographic landmarks of normal fetal cortical development.

Methods

Serial ultrasound examinations were performed every 2 weeks from 18 weeks of gestation until term. In each session a detailed examination of the fetal brain was performed and the appearance of the main sulci and gyri was recorded.

Results

Twenty-two pregnant women volunteered to participate in the study. The fetal cortex followed an orderly pattern of development. By the time of the first ultrasound examination, at 18 weeks, the major fissures were present. The first sulci could be demonstrated as early as 18 weeks. Main landmarks, represented by the parieto-occipital fissure and the cingulate and calcarine sulci, were present between 22–24 weeks. The central sulcus was present in all cases by 28 weeks. By 30–32 weeks most of the main sulci could be demonstrated.

Conclusions

Prenatal sonographic examinations can accurately demonstrate structures of the fetal cortex. Comparison of our results with those of both magnetic resonance imaging and other sonographic studies shows similarities in the order of appearance of the sulci and gyri, with only minor differences in the exact gestational age at which they are detected. Accurate knowledge of the ultrasound appearance of the fetal cortex at different stages of gestation is important in order to be able to diagnose in-utero malformations of cortical development. Copyright © 2006 ISUOG. Published by John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

You have the ability as a fetus to " think " to process stimuli in way other mammals can not.

If a baby taken from the womb is afforded the same rights as a baby delivered after a full gestation , then ergo sum at six months a human fetus has rights and the " host " has obligations and responsibilities.

You may as well say its OK to dispose of new Born's using your logic and " qualification of the quantity and quality of "thought " determining viability for the right to be called a human .


here is an interesting argument.

http://www.slate.com/id/2120872/

Common sense, law, medicine, and philosophy have long considered consciousness a central aspect of our moral existence as human beings. The ability to precisely detect and measure it promises to alter our struggles with both end-of-life decisions, like those at issue in the Terri Schiavo case, and beginning-of-life decisions involving abortion. In both instances, religious conservatives probably won't be happy about the results.

Roe replaced the quickening marker with one based on fetal viability, which typically occurs at about the 23rd week. Before that, the court ruled, abortion is a private matter concerning doctor and patient, while after that point the state has an increasing say. The court's abandonment of quickening was essentially a tactical move. Seeking more solid practical ground on which to base the law, the seven-justice majority exchanged a vague indicator of consciousness (quickening) for a more concrete developmental stage (the baby's ability to live outside the womb).

As leading neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga, a member of President Bush's Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn't possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain. Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead.

I think I have showed you more than enough to justify why I believe what I do and the reasoning behind it .
As you can see it was not an arbitrary decision. And it was not based on " faith " . Its based on cold hard logic and reason , after carefull consideration of the facts available.

 

[Swift]

I don't care what the fetus develops into. Yes I'm aware that I developed from a fetus, thank you, no need to remind me. What I DO care about is the fact that rights are based on self-awareness (not just awareness, self-awareness). Why then must we extend rights to unborn children when they don't have the cognitive power of a cat?

OK, so this begs the question. If a fetus is born radically prematurally, before the point that medical science says it is self-aware, should it just be left for dead?

 

[Lamboracer]

Ok so while in this thread i ahve a question. If a girl is on the pill and she misses it by a few hours, say she takes it at 6 in the morning but misses it and takes it at 4 that day, will it still be as effictive, and this is with everyday use.

 

[Danoff]

OK, so this begs the question. If a fetus is born radically prematurally, before the point that medical science says it is self-aware, should it just be left for dead?

No.

But if you'd said "could" it be left for dead - as in, could our laws morally state that, I'd say yes. My position is that since fetuses aren't self aware (no, ledhed has not proven that they are - and my interactions with infants suggest to me that they aren't), and neither are infants it is not inherently immoral to kill them. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere right? It could be drawn at 2 months or 4 months. I'd draw it at birth since that's the point where legal rights stop conflicting and legal identity is possible. The term "birth" includes a premature birth.

The same reason we give those rights to a 6 month old premature baby .

See above.

If your level of thought and quality of thoughts were a measure of " worth " or if you deserve " rights " the large part of this entire forum would not qualify .

How else do you explain why humans have rights and animals do not?

I'm surprised you are assuming a fetus at 6 month old only has the cognitive powers of a cat. I'm not used to you jumping to conclusions.

Interact with a 2 week old baby for a little while. Then interact with an adult cat. Tell me which one has a better defined sense of self, a more responsive brain, a better memory, or even problem solving capability. In every aspect, an adult cat has a better defined brain than a 2 week old baby.

proof of the development of said cerebral cortex in a fetus.

The presence of parts of the brain does not say anything about the quality of their functionality. The brain is an interesting organ, getting better with age (to a point). An adult brain obviously functions better than a teenager or a child's. I'm surprised you're pushing back here.

The fetus has a " thought" center . It receives stimuli to this area in the uterus. It is capable of " thought" the mechanism exist for it.

I don't care when it is capable of thought. Squirrels are capable of thought.

You are attempting to weigh a human life by the value or " quality " of its " thoughts "

How else do you explain why humans have rights and animals don't?

Thats a very slippery slope you are climbing my friend.

I'm fully aware of the implications of offering rights to the self-aware and removing the rights of those who are not.

You have the ability as a fetus to " think " to process stimuli in way other mammals can not.

We're not the only mammals with a cerebral cortex. But the ability to process information differently is something almost all animals have. You still have to make a judgement call about what makes one animal's brain worth giving rights to.

Ok so while in this thread i ahve a question. If a girl is on the pill and she misses it by a few hours, say she takes it at 6 in the morning but misses it and takes it at 4 that day, will it still be as effictive, and this is with everyday use.

She should know that... why... are you concerned?

 

[ledhed]

Dan I have two children and nieces and nephews along with being the oldest son in my family...I feel very safe in saying you are DEAD wrong .

Based on MY amount of experience with newborns through teens to adults over the last 45 or so years .

AND BTW I was at the Birth of both my children by Cesarean and watched EVERYTHING.

Your origin question was what criteria did I use to form my opinion .

Am I correct ?

I think I more than satisfied that question.

Ask someone else and THEY will give you an entire set of new answers.

You have YOUR criteria....and I have mine .

And it seems we have had different experiences or different perceptions of the same events.

Another thing by the way that makes us humans and individuals.

The presence of parts of the brain does not say anything about the quality of their functionality. The brain is an interesting organ, getting better with age (to a point). An adult brain obviously functions better than a teenager or a child's. I'm surprised you're pushing back here.

until someone is actually able to measure what a thought is and when it is present ..the only way to determine if thoughts are present is to be able to recognize that the mechanism for " awareness / thought " is PRESENT .

Thats why they scan a brain for activity to determine if someone is dead. If a fetus is showing brain activity that mimics the KNOWN patterns that show cognitive behavior , what would you call it Dan ?
we have already established the baby is a human , unless humans have suddenly acquired the ability to cross breed . So if a fetus is showing all the signs we use to determine LIFE in a human ergo sum it is alive and a human and it becomes the responsibility of the host and the state to protect its rights as a human .

if you read the links I posted you will find that to my everlasting surprise thats almost EXACTLY what Roe vs Wade decided. And I didn't even go to law school .

The quality of Brain function doesn't determine your viability for human rights . or we would just shoot all the retarded people and drown all the babies with downs syndrome.

Why dont we give a national IQ test and castrate all the stupid people so we can improve the gene pool ?

Thats the slope I was refering to in case you missed it.

Fact a baby / fetus has developed the capacity for thought or cognitive behavior at a certain period of gestation.

Fact a baby / fetus has functioning organs and can survive outside the womb if necessary after a certain period of gestation.

So at that POINT ..that fetus is a human with all the rights any other child has and is no longer a candidate for an abortion...unless the mothers life is in danger.

If you cant decide before six months what your going to do with the baby ...darwin award time .

And if you bother to check you will find that thats the actual LAW of the land in the US . In fact you can go back and read the thing in one of the links I gave you .

We're not the only mammals with a cerebral cortex. But the ability to process information differently is something almost all animals have. You still have to make a judgement call about what makes one animal's brain worth giving rights to

WE are the ONLY mammals with a cortex that works the way ours does and thats what seperates us from Chimps. And Drifters. Higher brain functions Dan...even in a developing fetus these functions are working and it has been proven ..not only that but its an accepted part of neonatal care and diagnosis.

We're not the only mammals with a cerebral cortex. But the ability to process information differently is something almost all animals have. You still have to make a judgement call about what makes one animal's brain worth giving rights to.

You do not give rights to a brain you give them to the whole human . The individual gets rights by being human ...irreguardless of his brain function as long as he/she has any .
If and when human society decides to give rights to our hamburgers and sausage , that will be very interesting. Will I have to give a form of miranda warnings to a deer before I shoot it and eat it ?

Believe me when I cook a steak I am not wondering about any other rights except the right amount of time it takes to cook it .

 

[Danoff]

Dan I have two children and nieces and nephews along with being the oldest son in my family...I feel very safe in saying you are DEAD wrong .

Give me an example.

 

[ledhed]

I have four cats and a dog . I have had two children of my own. An example of what ? My child recognizing patterns at two weeks old and responding to different people in different ways and being manipulative ?

My cat's never did that . They are all individuals with thier own quirks and personality but they are far from human ...even baby human .

Although to be fair compare a baby kitten to a human child. the Kitten will develope survival skills well before a human child will.
Buts thats evolution . The cat wont grow up to be the next Einstien or Bill Gates .

 

[Danoff]

I have four cats and a dog . I have had two children of my own. An example of what ? My child recognizing patterns at two weeks old and responding to different people in different ways and being manipulative ?

I've seen cats and dogs recognize patterns, respond to different people in different ways, and be manipulative. Why don't they get rights?

 

[Lamboracer]

yes i am concerened

 

[Danoff]

yes i am concerened

It should be as effective as it would have been anyway. But it isn't a guarantee even if she takes it on schedule.

 

[ledhed]

I've seen cats and dogs recognize patterns, respond to different people in different ways, and be manipulative. Why don't they get rights?

They get all kinds of rights in my house ! ARE YOU JOKING

They also have animal rights to be treated humanely..in OUR society because as much as we gave ourselves rights we gave them some too.

Hey I do not eat my pets but I will eat a cow...after cooking it first .

In India I could get the death penalty for that .

 

[Danoff]

They also have animal rights to be treated humanely..in OUR society because as much as we gave ourselves rights we gave them some too.

Not the right to life. Ask anyone who works at an animal shelter.