Abortion

[Joey D]

Michigan health care system reverses its decision to curtail abortion care after Roe overturned

After telling BHSH Health staff Friday that the health system would restrict abortions to cases where it's deemed "necessary to preserve the life of the woman," BHSH CEO Tina Freese Decker reversed course Saturday night.

www.michiganradio.org

So I used to work for Spectrum and they provided a ton of women's health services, especially in rural, backwater places in Michigan. Beaumont is evil and can go 🤬 itself with a scalpal though. Still, the logic in their reasoning to curtail abortions makes sense under the current law. Health systems want to reduce the risk of litigation as much as possible and they're clearly afraid that offering abortions, it's going to open them up to criminal and civil penalties at some point. Honestly, I think all major healthcare systems in states that don't have abortion legally protected will do this.

Another potentially problematic thing is on the horizon as well. The GOP will likely revise how Medicare/Medicaid are paid out through CMS if they get control of Congress. In doing this they will make it so hospitals can't be reimbursed for women's health services if they perform abortions, which would cripple hospitals financially. I'll be curious to see how they go about doing this because they might not even need to make abortion federally illegal, they just need to cut off finances to health systems.

And if you want a really good reason why government-funded healthcare is a horrible idea in America, it's stuff like that.

 

[Scaff]

I have no way of verifying this, but I certainly find it believable.

 

[Danoff]

I have no way of verifying this, but I certainly find it believable.

Agreed that it's hard to tell whether that is true. But I definitely is a believable story. Trigger laws were designed to take effect immediately, and we know of trigger laws that cover ectopic pregnancies. Even if it's wholly fabricated, it's still a huge concern right now. If it's true it's awful. If it's false, the fact that it is believable and makes sense is awful.


Edit:

The idea that a doctor would refuse to save someone's life because they were afraid of losing their license in their state is ALSO awful. I'd like to think that someone's life is worth more than your ability to practice medicine in a state with immoral laws. Stand up for something. I get it if the doctor was worried about being charged with homicide.

 

[Joey D]

I have no way of verifying this, but I certainly find it believable.

It's likely true to some degree (and a HIPAA violation). But I'm not aware of any trigger law that states a procedure can't be done if the mother's life is in danger. Even here in ultra-religious Utah, if two doctors sign off stating the women's life is in jeopardy, a procedure can be performed. I'm sure there are some states actively working to change this though. Still, I can understand the confusion on the part of the doctor but it sort of baffles me that the health system's legal team couldn't just give an answer right away. Like how ill-prepared is your legal team that it hadn't figured all this out when the Supreme Court draft was leaked?

Yes, women are going to die, but I'm not so sure it's due to the trigger laws themselves. It's likely due to healthcare professionals not being properly educated on the laws and knowing what they can or cannot do in the area where they practice. Does it suck? Yup, but it is what it is at the moment and while people are working to combat the laws, you need to follow them in the meantime.

I'm also not 100% sure how they could prosecute something like this either. If the doctor performed the procedure, it's not like it's going to be flagged to the state because under HIPAA it can't be. If law enforcement wants to obtain medical records, it needs a warrant and that's tricky when it comes to health information. While it can be done, it's not super straightforward. It's difficult to sometimes get a warrant for a patient's blood when they're alive and have been in a traffic accident due to suspected drunk driving. Hospital legal teams are wonderful at dragging their feet too and pretty much anyone who works in healthcare knows if law enforcement shows up you don't say anything and get ahold of legal. I could see pro-choice health systems making it super difficult for states to obtain information by making them jump through hoops.

Basically, if the patient would want the procedure done, they'd just need to get it done and then not say anything. Information you divulge isn't protected by HIPAA (despite how badly anti-vaxxers want it to be).

 

[kjeldsen]

So the pro-lifers have fought for and got something that will kill roughly the same amount of "babies", but also more women than before. Sound logic.

Yes.. It's almost like they're stupid?

 

[Blitz24]

The idea that a doctor would refuse to save someone's life because they were afraid of losing their license in their state is ALSO awful. I'd like to think that someone's life is worth more than your ability to practice medicine in a state with immoral laws. Stand up for something. I get it if the doctor was worried about being charged with homicide.

The idea that someone, after finding out a life was saved because of a necessary abortion, would then go and report the doctor to the state authorities is equally awful and reeks of removing human rights from some individuals.

 

[Danoff]

It's likely true to some degree (and a HIPAA violation). But I'm not aware of any trigger law that states a procedure can't be done if the mother's life is in danger. Even here in ultra-religious Utah, if two doctors sign off stating the women's life is in jeopardy, a procedure can be performed.

Missouri was the one that had a trigger law banning abortions even in ectopic cases, and explicitly called out ectopics as being banned. That law may have been changed, but it was a trigger law. I wouldn't be surprised to find that doctors are scrambling in Missouri to figure out whether they can perform it and under what circumstances.

Yes, women are going to die, but I'm not so sure it's due to the trigger laws themselves.

In the case of missouri, it could be.

Basically, if the patient would want the procedure done, they'd just need to get it done and then not say anything.

Finding a doctor to perform an abortion right now is not easy in certain states.

 

[Joey D]

Missouri was the one that had a trigger law banning abortions even in ectopic cases, and explicitly called out ectopics as being banned. That law may have been changed, but it was a trigger law. I wouldn't be surprised to find that doctors are scrambling in Missouri to figure out whether they can perform it and under what circumstances.

I'm going to need some help then because in reading the statement of the Missouri AG, it looks like abortions are legal under a medical emergency.

https://ago.mo.gov/docs/default-source/press-releases/22-2022.pdf?sfvrsn=39ffd2d_2

I can't see anywhere in the law that suggests this either:

188.017

Right to Life of the Unborn Child Act — limitation on abortions, when — affirmative defense — contingent effective date.

revisor.mo.gov

It appears that it was part of the initial bill though.

*** I just reread your post, sorry I missed the part where you said "that law might have been changed", so my fault for that one.

 

[eran0004]

If an embryo can be considered an “unborn baby”, that has a right to life, does that mean that a human can be considered an “undead corpse”?

Perhaps those are the two principles that are currently guiding the Republican Party 🤔

 

[TexRex]

“undead corpse”

[Pat Robertson has entered the chat]

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

One interesting idea I have seen floated is to provide funding to Native American tribes to set up abortion clinics on their land, somewhat like is already done with Casinos. This actual Supreme Court majority very recently gave sovereign immunity of the tribes a big win this year.

 

[Imari]

One interesting idea I have seen floated is to provide funding to Native American tribes to set up abortion clinics on their land, somewhat like is already done with Casinos. This actual Supreme Court majority very recently gave sovereign immunity of the tribes a big win this year.

It turns out the real America was there all along.

 

[Joey D]

This was unexpected:

Judge temporarily blocks Utah's abortion ban

A Utah judge has blocked a state law that banned elective abortions in the state in the wake of a Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe v. Wade last week.

kutv.com

Thankfully, Judge Stone ruled on the case though and he's consistently one of the best district court judges we have in Utah. He frequently rates well above average with the Judicial Performance Evaluation Commission (JPEC).

I suspect not much will happen with this, but at the very least it'll give the women who had procedures scheduled this week a chance to get them done. Per the article, there are 28 women awaiting appointments.

 

[TexRex]

Judge Stone

 

[Jezza819]

 

[TexRex]

This is what was always going to happen. They knew this is what was always going to happen. They did it anyway because they're not human.

 

[Danoff]

This is what was always going to happen. They knew this is what was always going to happen. They did it anyway because they're not human.

This is what is to be expected from "states' rights". The laboratories that are the states can be used to experiment with law to see which laws work out best, in the hopes that when one state gets something right, others will follow. So you'd expect some states to adopt poor laws and others to adopt better ones. Missouri is obviously an example of doing a bad job here. I guess one could even argue that states' rights is working since we could have the missouri law federally, so the damage is being localized to that state.

The problem with this is, of course, that Missouri should not be allowed to experiment with people's lives in this manner.

It would be nice to see a medical board (or petition or whatnot) push for the state legislature to accept that all ectopic pregnancies are immediately a medical emergency, so that the state can get some better policy from hospitals.

 

[TexRex]

JFC



Biden playing toad to McConnell's scorpion. You can't work with these mother****ers like they're going to act in good faith because they can't act in good faith, so Biden's just nominating an anti-choicer to a federal court slot...full stop.

 

[UKMikey]

We could really do with that facepalm response emoji.

 

[Darla Starch]

Democrats own-goaling at a critical juncture?

 

[Joey D]

Cynical me thinks the Democrats are shooting themselves in the foot over this for better fundraising opportunities. The more Republican push to outlaw abortion, the more Democrats can use it as a rallying cry for those sweet, sweet campaign donations.

It's kind of the same reason why I'm not sure the Republicans will actively push for a federal abortion ban. They want their base to think that's what they're going to do, but only slowly chip away at things so they can use it to fleece people out of money.

 

[TexRex]

 

[UKMikey]

She says he won't sign it until next week, too late to prevent the ban coming into force for a couple of days.

 

[Blitz24]

What is to stop this from going up to SCOTUS? I've never really understood how you can prevent that.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

What is to stop this from going up to SCOTUS? I've never really understood how you can prevent that.

SCOTUS basically just said there is no federal level protection for abortion. They can't say that a state court's ruling on a state law violates some federal level rule if that federal rule doesn't exist...as much as the SCOTUS majority would love to do it.

 

[TexRex]

She says he won't sign it until next week, too late to prevent the ban coming into force for a couple of days.

Yeah and mo-Ron can be expected to fight it, but it's not nothing.

 

[Joey D]

The Utah governor basically just called out the BS stance by Republicans regarding abortion and I'm here for it:

No matter where you stand on abortion, Utah Gov. Spencer Cox has a message for you

Gov. Spencer Cox had a message Wednesday for those on both sides of the abortion debate and the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling on Roe v. Wade

www.deseret.com

"If you are pro-life, then that means you should be pro-all life not just pro-life until birth," he said. "We should be working to prevent unwanted pregnancies. We should be doing more to make birth control more accessible in our state."

I mean credit where credit is due, however, Utah is fairly awful when it comes to preventing unwanted pregnancies. While birth control is relatively easy to get since it's accepted and encouraged by the LDS Church, schools can only teach abstinence-only sex ed. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's the school's job to teach that stuff, it should be the parent's responsibility, but I know how many parents can't be bothered with it.

I do hope Cox's comments though mean he'll push the State Congress to enact policy change. Although, given that our Congress is made up of 🤬heads I won't hold my breath. Still, nice to see that there's at least a somewhat reasonable religious Republican when it comes to abortions. I hope it carries over to the next election too and a women's coalition is formed called "Women for Cox" because I will 100% buy merchandise with that printed on it.

 

[TexRex]

The Utah governor basically just called out the BS stance by Republicans regarding abortion and I'm here for it:

No matter where you stand on abortion, Utah Gov. Spencer Cox has a message for you

Gov. Spencer Cox had a message Wednesday for those on both sides of the abortion debate and the U.S. Supreme Court’s ruling on Roe v. Wade

www.deseret.com

I mean credit where credit is due, however, Utah is fairly awful when it comes to preventing unwanted pregnancies. While birth control is relatively easy to get since it's accepted and encouraged by the LDS Church, schools can only teach abstinence-only sex ed. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's the school's job to teach that stuff, it should be the parent's responsibility, but I know how many parents can't be bothered with it.

I do hope Cox's comments though mean he'll push the State Congress to enact policy change. Although, given that our Congress is made up of 🤬heads I won't hold my breath. Still, nice to see that there's at least a somewhat reasonable religious Republican when it comes to abortions. I hope it carries over to the next election too and a women's coalition is formed called "Women for Cox" because I will 100% buy merchandise with that printed on it.

Obviously Cox is a RINO. /s

I agree that we should be working to prevent unwanted pregnancies and doing more to make birth control accessible (which necessarily means not overturning Griswold v. Connecticut as advocated for by many conservatives), but termination also absolutely should be on the table and access to it should be protected.

 

[Joey D]

Obviously Cox is a RINO. /s

I agree that we should be working to prevent unwanted pregnancies and doing more to make birth control accessible (which necessarily means not overturning Griswold v. Connecticut as advocated for by many conservatives), but termination also absolutely should be on the table and access to it should be protected.

Haha, Rino Cox.

At least in Utah, abortion policy is less ridiculous than it is in some other states. Abortions can be performed if the mother's life is in danger and if two physicians agree, which is fairly easy to get with most OB docs. There are also exceptions for rape/incest as well as severe genetic conditions present in the fetus, which also requires two docs to sign off. While it's not ideal, it's better than places like Texas.

If we could increase access to birth control and start educating pre-teens on contraceptives, I think the number of elective abortions of consciously conceived, viable fetuses would be reduced drastically. The LDS Church also needs to really step up its game in promoting the use of contraceptives, because while the government makes the laws here, the Church tells people what to do.

Utah is probably a weird case though.

 

[CodeRedR51]