Aerodynamics question

  • Thread starter lbsf1
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As long as isn't Lada shaped you probably won't see much difference between the two.

:( (ex-Lada owner)

I'd say a tear drop shape is your best bet. Either that or if the thing is really small and has few parts just leave it without a shell. There is no point adding a shell to improve aero when adding one might only add to it's wind profile.

Here's what I know from cycling fast - the wind profile is the area you see if you look from in front of the model directly at it. If adding a shell adds massively to it's wind profile then don't bother.

Imagine who of these two riders carves through the air better:

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Dimples decrease the surface area exposed to the airflow. This reduces friction with the air, the friction being what slows the air and increases the boundary layer thickness which causes flow separation.

On the front surface of the ball the reduced surface area takes immediate effect, with the air flowing over air trapped inside the dimples as opposed to flowing over what would be more high-friction surface area. This reduction in surface area causes the reduction in friction buildup which extends the separation point. The benefit of the smaller wake is less parasitic drag.

We may be in violent agreement. I don't like the term surface area the way you're using it. The surface area of a dimpled sphere* is larger than the surface area of a sphere* (forget air flow or boundary layers). What you're trying to say is generally correct - the turbulent boundary layer enables the laminar flow to better conform to the shape and reduce drag.

*same radius of course
 
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Would drilling lots of holes in the body acheive this effect??
 
From what I know, dimpling a car to reduce drag does not work and the Mythbusters did not have a well set up test. They are a TV show, not a science lab. Way too many variables.

Fun fact: A golf ball with dimples will fly about twice as far as one without.

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We don't see dimples on cars is that the effect the dimples have only works well on a blunt body like a sphere or a cylinder. The biggest drag on a golf ball is due to pressure. In this case, the dimples are beneficial because they reduce the wake.

Shapes like wings and super efficient cars get more of their drag from skin friction drag.

Most streamlined bodies (bottom) have a teardrop shape that creates a much more gradual pressure gradient. This less severe gradient promotes attached laminar flow much further along the body that eliminates flow separation, or at least delays it as long as possible.

The ratio for length vs. height for laminar flow to stay connected on a downward slope is 6:1, meaning that for every 1 inch you want to drop, you need the shape to extend 6 inches rearward. Although this is nearly impossible on most cars, we get close on the super efficient models. The resulting wake is therefore very small and generates very little pressure drag.

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In the Mythbuster's clip they visited the NASA Ames Fluid Mechanics Lab (FML). I spent some time there during which we followed up the Mythbuster's test with our own. Rabindra Mehta, the head of the branch felt that their was inaccurate.

We were interested in the possibility of dimpling the surface of a passenger car. The (few) die cast models tested included a 350Z and (for fun) a 2002 VW Beetle (because it's shaped like a golf ball :D). We covered the models with a thin layer of clay, tested in a 15x15 Wind Tunnel, and found the drag coefficients of each of them. We then applied a few versions of dimples in different sizes, depths and placements on the car's body and tested some more.

The results showed that on average, strategically placed dimples increased the drag coefficient on the model by about 8%. Dimpling the entire car (except windscreens and wheels) increased the drag coefficient by about 15%.

This was a casual test. I would not be blown away if it were to be refuted. We did test to fairly high speeds, about 250fps in the test section.

This test also has limited relevance to your car because we only tested Corvettes, 350Z's, etc.

In conclusion: I recommend keeping it as smooth as possible, but my tests were not the most accurate and I am not an aero engineer by trade.

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Vortex generators work differently than the dimples. On a car, they must be placed precisely and have an extremely small effect.

Vortex generators can be placed on the outside edge of a wing in order to promote a turbulent boundary layer that adds forward momentum to the flow. This helps the flow overcome the pressure gradient and remain attached to the surface longer than it would otherwise, just like they do on a golf ball.

The purpose of putting this on a plane wing is shown in the diagram, it allows the wing to reach a higher angle of attack before stalling.
 
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Would drilling lots of holes in the body acheive this effect??

Hah, the first thing that came to mind:

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From my understanding holes will allow air pressure to escape removing the effect the dimples give and causing even more turbulence.
 
F1 Designers dont know ****.
Formula 1 is more worried about disrupting the airflow and getting by loopholes. They could care less about real advances in aerodynamics.
Really? So that's why F1 has some of the most advanced wind tunnel facilities and considerable investment in CFD?

I'm not saying that dimples aren't effective, but consider several other factors. Manufacturing and weight, interference turbulence and effectiveness on working surfaces. All of which are key issues in F1.

Dimples decrease the surface area exposed to the airflow. This reduces friction with the air, the friction being what slows the air and increases the boundary layer thickness which causes flow separation.
I don't believe skin friction decreases, in fact I believe there's an increase due to a turbulent boundary layer. However, the flip side is, as you said, the turbulent boundary layer allows a better attachment and a smaller low-pressure drag component. The reduction in low-pressure drag simply trumps the slight increase in skin friction.

I've got lecture notes on it somewhere, I'll dig them out soonish.
 
corporatesteve
F1 Designers dont know ****. They dont have the same research capabilities as aeronautical corporations do such as Boeing.

Then kindly tell us all why an entire 747 isn't dimpled, if it's so aerodynamic?...

A golf ball needs all the help it can get because a ball is an inherently unaerodynamic shape. A smooth, streamlined object, such as an aircraft or car, wouldn't benefit from dimples as airflow has no trouble remaining attached to a smooth surface.

And for the record, putting an asterisk in place of one letter in the word you used is frowned upon here. Don't do it.
 
What I would try if I were doing this (and it might well come to nothing, but I'd try it) would be minimal bodywork and open wheels, but that's assuming the suspension isn't just round tubes, and the mechanical aspects of the chassis can be kept narrow enough to be contained by a formula-type body, like Formula Ford or something. Roundish nose and Kammback. Body only wide enough to contain the driver and mechanicals. Trying to shroud the wheels puts more bodywork in the air than you want, unless you go with an extremely narrow track like the beast Famine pictured.

Making the suspension out of something other than round tubes gets either heavy or expensive, though. Maybe bodywork protrusions to shroud the suspension pieces, like little wings covering the tubes.
 
Dimples? Don't make me laugh. Think what does a golf ball do? Spins. It makes severe stability issues. Also it will disrupt airflow The reason golf balls have them is because a sphere doesnt use the flow like an aerofoil.

Like I said though don't spend much time on the aero even the best guys in the buisness could only get 1 or 2 mph more out of your car (assuming the thrust remains the same and that it will keep going till the forces are in equilibrium not like a redline) at 30 mph so the efficiency isn't going to be that much.

1 thing I would suggest though is try to reduce rolling resistance from the tires.
 
My priorities would be Weight>Frontal Area>Drag Coefficient considering the speeds at which you will be racing.
This means skinny wheels and no body work wider or taller than the chassis and necessary parts.

Keep in mind that although I am interested in aerodynamics, I don't know anything.
 
At the risk of harping too much on the dimple thing (which is not going to be practical and will, like all aerodynamic effects, have very little contribution at 30 mph)...

From what I know, dimpling a car to reduce drag does not work and the Mythbusters did not have a well set up test. They are a TV show, not a science lab. Way too many variables.

...like the shape of the car. But for the car they tested (not very aerodynamic) it worked well.

We don't see dimples on cars is that the effect the dimples have only works well on a blunt body like a sphere or a cylinder. The biggest drag on a golf ball is due to pressure. In this case, the dimples are beneficial because they reduce the wake.

I think one of the main reasons we don't see this attempted on cars is because it's a horrific manufacturing process and ugly to boot.

Shapes like wings and super efficient cars get more of their drag from skin friction drag.

Ok, looked it up. Skin friction drag is apparently reduced when the boundary layer is laminar. However, the turbulent boundary layer helps prevent separation.

So the bottom line on the dimple question is whether separation is a dominant source of drag. Seems like it might be for some cars and not for others.

The ratio for length vs. height for laminar flow to stay connected on a downward slope is 6:1, meaning that for every 1 inch you want to drop, you need the shape to extend 6 inches rearward. Although this is nearly impossible on most cars, we get close on the super efficient models. The resulting wake is therefore very small and generates very little pressure drag.

That's not dependent on airflow speed? Or you've calculated that for 30mph?


Ok, to counteract some of the dimple talk. Let's get back to reality:

me
...at 30mph none of it matters much. You're just not moving through enough air to actually have substantial drag. As dhandes above said, focus on ditching weight and making it work reliably.

An Ariel Atom apparently has a drag coefficient of 0.4. A hummer has 0.6. The best production cars come close to 0.2. I think the atom would be the recipe for success here. But let me ask another question...

Are you functioning at the vehicle's top speed much during the race? Do you have any control over engine output? How much of the time is the car accelerating vs cruising at max output? Can you control gearing?
 
At the risk of harping too much on the dimple thing (which is not going to be practical and will, like all aerodynamic effects, have very little contribution at 30 mph)...
Which I think we need to stress more. You being a fully-credited rocket scientist, and I being educated in rocket science...
 
Then kindly tell us all why an entire 747 isn't dimpled, if it's so aerodynamic?...

A golf ball needs all the help it can get because a ball is an inherently unaerodynamic shape. A smooth, streamlined object, such as an aircraft or car, wouldn't benefit from dimples as airflow has no trouble remaining attached to a smooth surface.

And for the record, putting an asterisk in place of one letter in the word you used is frowned upon here. Don't do it.

Becuase like I said before in my post, its the most basic design for keeping airflow attached. Boeing has much more state of the art designs in their aircraft ( sweepback, composite, vortiles, VG's, etc etc i can go on forever). Everything that has been introduced in F1 has already been used in aeronautics since the dawn of flight. That is why F1 doesnt need to use that basic concept, theyre already using other "better" concepts that were produced in the aeronautic and space industry. Btw the Lockheed Martin RQ-170 Sentinel and the General Atomics MQ-9 Predator use dimple designs on the under belly of their aircraft. However I do not know much about its use since its deemed top secret. I do know that the MQ-1 Pred uses it for high AOA uses on the airfoil, which im assuming is used for slow flight/ short field landings.
 
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I do know that the MQ-1 Pred uses it for high AOA uses on the airfoil, which im assuming is used for slow flight/ short field landings.

High AOA = separation. Turbulent boundary layer = less separation. Makes sense.

me
Are you functioning at the vehicle's top speed much during the race? Do you have any control over engine output? How much of the time is the car accelerating vs cruising at max output? Can you control gearing?

If the answer to these questions is something on the order of "yea we go around a track at full speed pretty much the whole time, there aren't hard turns or braking or anything that requires accelerating from low speed except the start of the race" and something like "we have no control over the engine output, it's basically a box that's given to us and we put in the car". Then I'd conclude that you should mess with aerodynamics. The best approach is to rip off other people who did well before you.
 
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Wikipedia: Drag coefficients

It's little accident that all solar cars and many high-efficiency concepts look like a teardrop with a very long tail...

Here's the most efficient car in the world:

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It has a drag coefficient of 0.075 - a quarter that of a Toyota Prius.

I don't think I would class that as a "car" to be honest... :P .
 
What on earth is that? And how are you gonna drive or race something like a Pac Car?

That's one wierd concept car there.
 
If the answer to these questions is something on the order of "yea we go around a track at full speed pretty much the whole time, there aren't hard turns or braking or anything that requires accelerating from low speed except the start of the race" and something like "we have no control over the engine output, it's basically a box that's given to us and we put in the car". Then I'd conclude that you should mess with aerodynamics. The best approach is to rip off other people who did well before you.

Yeah that basicly hits the nail on the head.
 
Yep, I call hacks! If I'm correct you can't turn in the Pac Car II. I think...

It rear steers.

lbsf1, it might be an idea to look at and take some influence from salt-flat belly tanks maybe.. having said that, what you're working with is quite low to begin with, so it may not be possible.

With regards to the wheel shrouds, i was thinking somewhere along the lines of this:


It's a Lotus gravity racer, so speed is the essence with this.. not efficiency, so doing something like this might not be beneficial to you, therefore wheel disks may be the way to go (as shown in W3HS's bike pic), the difference between the 2 being the shroud is static where-as the disk is moving (obviously).. don't know whether having a moving disk would affect airflow/air friction to be honest, another potential problem with the shroud is something that i'm sure you've thought about.. the steering and how the shroud itself is attached but still separate from the struts and rods etc.

I'm sorry i can't really offer anymore advice than that (i have no aerodynamic experience), but i do find it an interesting subject and wish you good luck with your project. 👍
 
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Yeah that basicly hits the nail on the head.
Ahhhhh. Right, that makes the aero more critical then.

Do you have to have 4 wheels? Is there a stability test?

I'd think a reverse trike or a very narrow 4 wheel set up would be quite beneficial.
 
Ahhhhh. Right, that makes the aero more critical then.

Do you have to have 4 wheels? Is there a stability test?

I'd think a reverse trike or a very narrow 4 wheel set up would be quite beneficial.

We arn't really in a position to change the wheelbase since we have allready made the complete rolling chassis that. We are just looking at changing the bodywork before the races start in june.

This whole thread was in an attempt to get my teacher to change his mind and let us produce a new body. Now we will need to anyway because after testing yesterday he did this, it was wet and he braked where you do in the dry. :facepalm: (And he constantly has a go at me about being careful when driving it ;) )

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(please note that most of the damage isn't visible, it broke most of the supports underneath for the whole front section, it also went in further to the post but this is after we pushed it back.)
 
We arn't really in a position to change the wheelbase since we have allready made the complete rolling chassis that. We are just looking at changing the bodywork before the races start in june.

This whole thread was in an attempt to get my teacher to change his mind and let us produce a new body. Now we will need to anyway because after testing yesterday he did this, it was wet and he braked where you do in the dry. :facepalm: (And he constantly has a go at me about being careful when driving it ;) )

szvips.jpg


(please note that most of the damage isn't visible, it broke most of the supports underneath for the whole front section, it also went in further to the post but this is after we pushed it back.)

He should have let me done the driving. I am a very good driver :D .
 
Aw that's a shame!

Few things I'd change though just from that image alone. Road tyres or even hybrid slicks on the wheels, and disk wheels if you can. Also, fill in that gap in the wheel arch so that you're not getting air running through the body. Looks nice otherwise, nice headrest too ;)
 
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