Aerodynamics question

  • Thread starter lbsf1
  • 81 comments
  • 3,684 views
Aw that's a shame!

Few things I'd change though just from that image alone. Road tyres or even hybrid slicks on the wheels, and disk wheels if you can. Also, fill in that gap in the wheel arch so that you're not getting air running through the body. Looks nice otherwise, nice headrest too ;)

I'm not quite sure where they would get the slick tyres from, but making the tyres wider, even on the same type of rubber compound will increase grip due to the increase area of tyre in contact with the road.
 
I'm not quite sure where they would get the slick tyres from, but making the tyres wider, even on the same type of rubber compound will increase grip due to the increase area of tyre in contact with the road.

We don't need grip, the race is around an airfield with 3 gentle corners, they are for low drag not grip.


EDIT: Also just noticed my feet in the top left of the image. ;)
 
Last edited:
I'm not quite sure where they would get the slick tyres from, but making the tyres wider, even on the same type of rubber compound will increase grip due to the increase area of tyre in contact with the road.
They're using bicycle rims, hence they can fit bicycle tyres of a racing slick style. This isn't for grip, it's because they have a low contact patch and can take 120 PSi.

It'd be far better than the wide mountain bike tyres they're using now at about 40 PSi.
 
Skimmed the thread, some things might have been covered.

Short answer for original question, blunt nose until you hit supersonic speed.


But... at 30mph none of it matters much. You're just not moving through enough air to actually have substantial drag. As dhandes above said, focus on ditching weight and making it work reliably. Whatever you do do not add a spoiler. At 30mph it will give you nothing.

At 30 mph aero has very little effect so the weight of any aero parts would be worse than the gain of the part.
Disagree.

30 mph is fast enough for aerodynamics to play a roles. This includes drag and downforce. What's different between 30 mph and 300 mph is what you actually focus on. At 30 mph, you might just use something "simple" like a blunt nose and sharp tail, and avoid wings and other crazy things, but you still need to engineer the simple shape as much as you would engineer a set of wings.

A spoiler would also have an effect but they are inferior to airfoils. I wouldn't use either though if drag is the biggest concern. Instead use an underbody diffuser if you want downforce. 30 mph is plenty to generate more downforce than the weight of the diffuser.



Dimples decrease the surface area exposed to the airflow. This reduces friction with the air, the friction being what slows the air and increases the boundary layer thickness which causes flow separation.

On the front surface of the ball the reduced surface area takes immediate effect, with the air flowing over air trapped inside the dimples as opposed to flowing over what would be more high-friction surface area. This reduction in surface area causes the reduction in friction buildup which extends the separation point. The benefit of the smaller wake is less parasitic drag.

Dimples increase area. Their purpose it to create turbulence as turbulence resists flow separation more than laminar flow. This means the wake behind the object is less and there is less drag.

The downside of turbulent flow is increased skin friction drag. Dimpling the whole car would be a bad idea. You would want to find the area where separation occurs and then trip the flow at that point. Golf balls have dimples all over because they can fly in any direction.

As far as shaping the body of the car, look at low Reynolds number airfoils. Reynolds number (or Re) can be used to gague how turbulent the air is. Laminar flow occurs between Re = 0 and 500,000 to 1,000,000 (you can trip is earlier than this though), turbulence occurs past 500,000- 1,000,000. You want to keep laminar flow for as long as possible by producing a favorable pressure gradient. The simplest way to do this is constant or increasing curvature. Decreasing curvature starts produces adverse gradients which lead to turbulent flow.


I don't believe skin friction decreases, in fact I believe there's an increase due to a turbulent boundary layer. However, the flip side is, as you said, the turbulent boundary layer allows a better attachment and a smaller low-pressure drag component. The reduction in low-pressure drag simply trumps the slight increase in skin friction.
Exactly.


EDIT

Also, closed wheel is better, as open wheels basically create a vortex that consumes kinetic energy. Don't worry about frontal area too much. It matters, but when you have a streamlined shape, skin friction and induced drag are the major sources of drag. Skin friction drag increases with total surface area.
 
Last edited:
Downforce is neither needed nor wanted, since downforce equals drag. So anything resembling spoilers, diffusers and whatnot is right out.

As for the effectiveness of aerodynamics at 30 mph:

A while back I used to race HO scale slot cars. This happened to be the time when vac formed bodies were first coming into use in HO. We were generally of the opinion that they were good because they were lighter and could look cooler, but we seriously questioned whether or not a downforce-producing body shape would make any difference. Consider that we were running on a track with a lap length of about 66 feet and our best times were around five seconds per lap. That meant that our average speed was in the neighborhood of 13 feet per second, or 9 mph.

As it turned out, yes, the bodies shaped to produce downforce handled significantly better than similar bodies that didn't produce downforce. Note that the downforce is only useful in the turns, where the car's speed is much less than the average.

Granted, the above is concerning downforce and not coefficient of drag, but still it shows that aerodynamics can matter at speeds much less than you'd think they would.
 
Downforce is neither needed nor wanted, since downforce equals drag. So anything resembling spoilers, diffusers and whatnot is right out.
Except that operating in ground effect, you'll be significantly impeding the vortices that want to form.

I don't think that they need much downforce either, if at all, but if they wanted to for it I'd think a diffuser would be the way to go.

As for the effectiveness of aerodynamics at 30 mph...

Pretty much, it comes down to good engineering. If they're not sure how much aero matters, they need to find out. I don't know how the competition works, but if it's like FSAE, and judges determine part of your score by reviewing your design, saying "30 mph just makes the aerodynamics unimportant" with no supporting evidence should be worth zero points.

I think that the aero would have a pretty big effect on this car because it's battery powered. Less drag = less power = less energy needed = smaller battery (unless batteries are limited to one configuration). But to get the real answer, someone needs to do some calculations.
 
Except that operating in ground effect, you'll be significantly impeding the vortices that want to form.

I don't think that they need much downforce either, if at all, but if they wanted to for it I'd think a diffuser would be the way to go.



Pretty much, it comes down to good engineering. If they're not sure how much aero matters, they need to find out. I don't know how the competition works, but if it's like FSAE, and judges determine part of your score by reviewing your design, saying "30 mph just makes the aerodynamics unimportant" with no supporting evidence should be worth zero points.

I think that the aero would have a pretty big effect on this car because it's battery powered. Less drag = less power = less energy needed = smaller battery (unless batteries are limited to one configuration). But to get the real answer, someone needs to do some calculations.


The competition is whoever can go the furthest in 4 hours, on 6 batteries (2 in the car at a time.) Therefore you have to balance speed and economy.

As already said the track has only very gentle corners so downforce is uneeded, just as little ressistance as possible. We are running on 80psi bmx tyres to try and sort out rolling resistance.

The solutions that we have came up with for aero efficiency is that we will add a gradual windscreen and some higher sides to stop the driver disturbing the flow to much (however the rules only allow bodywork up to the drivers eye height.) I will cover the inside of the wheelarches. We tried to make discs over the wheels last year but they were a failure and we couldn't get them to fit properly but we will try them again this year also I will make a flat floor for it to decrease drag aswell.


Thanks for your help.
 
The competition is whoever can go the furthest in 4 hours, on 6 batteries (2 in the car at a time.) Therefore you have to balance speed and economy.

OK. Then I guess these batteries are standardized right? If so, more aero efficiency won't cut your weight, but it will cut your energy consumption. If you get to choose the battery type, better aero should allow lighter batteries in general.


The solutions that we have came up with for aero efficiency is that we will add a gradual windscreen and some higher sides to stop the driver disturbing the flow to much (however the rules only allow bodywork up to the drivers eye height.)

CFD would be very helpful with this. You don't need to bring the windscreen to the top of the driver's head. Depending how you angle it, you will get a diving streamline between freestream and separated flow that my go above or below the driver's head even if the windscreen doesn't. However the windscreen is going to have very high pressure in the front and low in the rear, so it's not clear if it's going to be better than just having the driver exposed from the shoulders up. You might gain more by shaping the back of the driver compartment to fit the driver so to speak. But you would need to test thing with either CFD or wind tunnel.

Another thing that I suggest looking at in CFD is the very rear of the car. See how much the flow is separating back there. If the air flow just streaks off the car, you need a longer tail or you might want to trip the flow to turbulence (but only just before it separates).

I will make a flat floor for it to decrease drag aswell.
That might transition to turbulence faster than a slightly curved floor. Again, some kind of testing would be very useful here.

Best of luck!
 
As already said the track has only very gentle corners so downforce is uneeded, just as little ressistance as possible. We are running on 80psi bmx tyres to try and sort out rolling resistance.
Sure you can't switch to a road bike tyre set up? I'm sure it would have significant efficiency saving.

Exorcet
That might transition to turbulence faster than a slightly curved floor. Again, some kind of testing would be very useful here.
A flat under belly would be preferable to an exposed under-belly with turbulence around suspension and drivetrain components.
 
Last edited:
A flat under belly would be preferable to an exposed under-belly with turbulence around suspension and drivetrain components.

True, but I just wanted to point out that flat might not be the best. They should have something covering the bottom, but I don't know if it should be flat or a curved surface.
 
Ok, so with no real traditional performance needed from this car (ie: acceleration, braking, or turning), it sounds like it really is all down to reducing drag, and I concur that no downforce is needed or wanted and weight reduction will not pay massive dividends.

Is that photo indicative of how rough the skin of the car is going to be? You might want to take that into account in your shape.
 
Ok, so with no real traditional performance needed from this car (ie: acceleration, braking, or turning), it sounds like it really is all down to reducing drag, and I concur that no downforce is needed or wanted and weight reduction will not pay massive dividends.

Is that photo indicative of how rough the skin of the car is going to be? You might want to take that into account in your shape.

Yeah that is how rough it is, we only had 4 weeks to design and make the body for the car before the races last year, our idea of a light plastic skeleton, and polyester resin + fabric skin over the top was good and is quite light, however it didn't turn out exactly flat because it bubbled up alot.

We could probably make it abit smoother if we did it again, however it won't be amazingly smooth.


We have a whole team meeting tommorow and I'll discuss the idea's from this thread with them then. We shall win ;)
 
Except that operating in ground effect, you'll be significantly impeding the vortices that want to form.

I don't think that they need much downforce either, if at all, but if they wanted to for it I'd think a diffuser would be the way to go.



Pretty much, it comes down to good engineering. If they're not sure how much aero matters, they need to find out. I don't know how the competition works, but if it's like FSAE, and judges determine part of your score by reviewing your design, saying "30 mph just makes the aerodynamics unimportant" with no supporting evidence should be worth zero points.

I think that the aero would have a pretty big effect on this car because it's battery powered. Less drag = less power = less energy needed = smaller battery (unless batteries are limited to one configuration). But to get the real answer, someone needs to do some calculations.
I have done a lot of RC car related stuff and yes aero does a BIG difference at 30 mph. Though these cars are usually overpowered so its not so much drag we worry rather downforce. You might want to look into soapbox derby style cars. But with covered wheels. Some years back i remember some pretty good ones sold at an auction on TV made by companies like audi, mazda,etc.
http://www.gizmowatch.com/entry/20-gravity-cars-that-vividly-defy-gravity/

Another big thing is friction. Try and use ceramic bearings if possible. in RCworld these can increase acceleration and top speed over regular bearings. As for the body you can try some RC plane plastic covering. It glues on and with some heat can get rid of wrinkles and such.
 
Last edited:
Yeah that is how rough it is, we only had 4 weeks to design and make the body for the car before the races last year

I'd side with Danoff on this. A rough surface is going to spoil the shape of your body. Going back to what I was saying before about turbulence and separation, you can't really control any of that unless your body is smooth.

I have done a lot of RC car related stuff and yes aero does a BIG difference at 30 mph.

Yeah, it's all situational. I don't really like big blanket statements (though I know I'm guilty of making them). This car isn't a 3500 lb full size racer with a 500 hp engine; that's where the idea/intuition that 30 mph is too slow to matter is probably coming from. You need to examine every case separately on its merits to really see what's going on.
 
As for the body you can try some RC plane plastic covering.

I like this idea a lot. A latex or plastic skin is going to be smoother, probably much faster to manufacture, lighter, maybe cheaper, but will probably work out better for airflow. You might still want to go with a solid nose for front impacts since that seems to be an issue. ;)
 
Yeah, it's all situational. I don't really like big blanket statements (though I know I'm guilty of making them). This car isn't a 3500 lb full size racer with a 500 hp engine; that's where the idea/intuition that 30 mph is too slow to matter is probably coming from. You need to examine every case separately on its merits to really see what's going on.

exactly, would you believe adding this little piece of plastic under the front wing made the car go from incredible high speed understeer to incredible high speed oversteer?
cfd4977a.jpg

b5143eda.jpg
 
There are a number of good ideas here, but this thread has mostly been focusing on aero. Looking at your (lbsf1's, not vfrmaverick's) picture, though, I would say that the biggest gains would come from reduction of rolling resistance; ie hard, skinny tires. I think it was dhandles who first mentioned this.

One thing that needs to be emphasized, though, is this is all speculation and theorizing. The only way to know for sure is to test.
 
exactly, would you believe adding this little piece of plastic under the front wing made the car go from incredible high speed understeer to incredible high speed oversteer?
cfd4977a.jpg

b5143eda.jpg
Yes. Because you covered the curved part of the wing I bet you doubled its mean chord and its camber went through the roof. I wouldn't doubt you doubled the lift downforce it makes.
 
The gains on the RC car probably has more to do with massive stagnation on top of the front wing. At that scale, the flow wants to be laminar. The air on the bottom probably comes to the plastic, sees the sharp turn, says "no way" and just goes straight past the rear of the wing.

Back to the battery powered car, I second BobK (and everyone else) who suggested hard, thin tires, and testing.

Also, I can believe how many missing words/typos are in my other posts.
 
Yes. Because you covered the curved part of the wing I bet you doubled its mean chord and its camber went through the roof. I wouldn't doubt you doubled the lift downforce it makes.

Believe it or not that was my first of 3 attempts and the one with the least downforce. The one with the most is was actually flush with the top of the wing. Its essentially a diffuser on the nose. With it so big and steep it was stalling. Making it lower and shallower held airflow much better. And yes i did test airflow by making my own "flowviz" like in f1
 
OP: Can you cover the rear wheels? That should reduce airflow turbulences on the sides of the car especially when turning. Or maybe use fender holes that lets the air that gets caught in the wheel arch escape.
 

Latest Posts

Back