Africa, the forgotten continent?

[Scaff]

You might want to chance your stance on him. He was the man who carried out Mugabe's dirty work. He is a known illegal diamond dealer. And he is just as corrupt as his aging sugar daddy.

Hence the 'these days' bit, however I acknowledge this is a scale consisting of all bad.

 

[Dennisch]

It's incredible to see what Mugabe has managed.

During his reign the life expectancy dropped to an average of 42. It was in the 60's.

An unemployment rate of 95%. 70% of the population living in poverty.

And we all know how he managed to destroy the currency.

 

[Carbonox]

It's incredible to see what Mugabe has managed.

During his reign the life expectancy dropped to an average of 42. It was in the 60's.

An unemployment rate of 95%. 70% of the population living in poverty.

And we all know how he managed to destroy the currency.

Don't forget its status as the prosperous granary of Africa, completely washed down the toilet to the point where it's now a net importer of food.

 

[UKMikey]

During his reign the life expectancy dropped to an average of 42. It was in the 60's.

I'm not defending his draconian misrule but your figures are slightly off. Life expectancy wasn't in the sixties when he took over but 59. Now that the AIDS epidemic is over it's risen back to a majestic 58 after hitting a low of 43. Nothing to be proud of by anyone else's standards but things have improved slightly. Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...imbabwean-life-expectancy-rates-a6885376.html

 

[PeterJB]

I guess that's what you get with a president that's so popular that even the dead vote for him...

 

[UKMikey]

I guess that's what you get with a president that's so popular that even the dead vote for him...

No, it's what you get when a killer disease stops killing as many people. We all know he's a bad man.

 

[Keef]

I heard that western countries giving free **** to African countries, like clothes, actually hurts their prospects. Sure, they have more things, but they aren't *producing* anything. Basically we have so much crap that we give it to them for free, in some ways allowing them to skip an industrialized economy and go straight to a consumer economy. And that's not how any of this works. That's how you never get the kind of infrastructure you need to people to live easy lives.

 

[UKMikey]

I heard that western countries giving free **** to African countries, like clothes, actually hurts their prospects. Sure, they have more things, but they aren't *producing* anything. Basically we have so much crap that we give it to them for free, in some ways allowing them to skip an industrialized economy and go straight to a consumer economy. And that's not how any of this works. That's how you never get the kind of infrastructure you need to people to live easy lives.

"Give a man a fish..."

 

[TenEightyOne]

I heard that western countries giving free **** to African countries, like clothes, actually hurts their prospects. Sure, they have more things, but they aren't *producing* anything.

If a country's means of production (or those of a tribal part of a nominal country) has entirely collapsed then that theory really doesn't work, and I'm not sure why African countries are singled out there. Like most continents Africa has a pretty good range of wealth, cities and production. and some desperate barren places.

Add to that the history of economic pillaging of Africa's assets and real live people by world superpowers and you have a kind of debt for which a few voluntary aid payments are really fair enough. In the case of Zimbabwe (the country most recently mentioned in this thread) it's only a country because Britain gave it back to Africans 40 years ago. You could argue that the economic development of much of the continent has been held down by colonialism through what should have been their age of enlightenment. If we have a load of spare kelt that they can make use of then why not give it to them?

 

[Liquid]

If the dictator is starving his people into submission, someone must feed and clothe the people. A humanitarian crisis like that, where the dictator is starving his people into submission and no-one is feeding or clothing the people would be spectacularly horriffic. Some argue that this is happening in Yemen now.

It does get abused by governments in some countries like India, whose government is prosperous enough to pursue nuclear weapons and a space programme but does nothing about the 60% of the population living off £3 a day because the UK contributes billions in aid instead, but foreign aid is a good thing.

It has an air of a 'liberating' invasion when you think about it but you won't see any NATO or western allies moving into Zimbabwe any time soon; it's neither geographically strategic nor financially lucrative.

 

[Dennisch]

I say that they should pick Mugabe and friends completely clean and use the money as a start to bring the country back on its feet.

 

[mustafur]

That's all well and good to say but in 2017 complete and utter crippling corruption is what is putting Africa backwards, there is no proper Trains, Roads that go through the continent due to corrupt border controls to try milk money of anyone that comes through, which ruins trade completely, making things incredibly expensive despite these being poor countries already and thus keeping poverty.

And most of that is due to Governments that would turn their country into a wasteland before giving up power so they have no desire to fix even the most basic things that could improve quality of life drastically which most of all comes down to trade.

 

[Omnis]

How do they finance anything in Zimbabwe? It subsists only by its black market.

 

[Liquid]

How do they finance anything in Zimbabwe? It subsists only by its black market.

By force, I'd imagine.

"Build an extension to my grand palace or your family gets it."

It's also one of those countries where the USD is the de facto currency.

 

[Omnis]

By force, I'd imagine.

"Build an extension to my grand palace or your family gets it."

It's also one of those countries where the USD is the de facto currency.

No, not the Mugabes. The regular people.

 

[TenEightyOne]

No, not the Mugabes. The regular people.

The USD is de facto currency everywhere. Zimbabwe's own currency was ruined by insane inflation thanks to the Mugabe regime's disastrous financial policies with corruption rendered virtually unpolicable by regime favouritism.

Both of these things are fixable now that Robert Mugabe has been removed as leader and Grace Mugabe is ineligible to rule (BBC) but it's a long road. If Zimbabweans want it enough, and if the new government allows it, these things are fixable. Hopefully the IMF will return to the country - that would be an important first step.

 

[Liquid]

I'm finding it hard to not get swept up in euphoria about a Mugabe ousting from power but I do wish that whatever the next step for Zimbabwe is, however transitional or permanent, the country can start moving forwards. At last.

It's equally hard to not be cynical about the next government being as bad as the old one; Mugabe took power in 1980 and was seemingly popular at first because it wasn't until the 1990s that his knighthoods, doctorates and honours started being taken away from him.

 

[Dennisch]

They have reinstated his former right hand man.

Nothing is going to change.

 

[TenEightyOne]

They have reinstated his former right hand man.

Nothing is going to change.

And Mugabe's re-instated himself

 

[Dennisch]

And Mugabe's re-instated himself

Beat me to it!

But when the inevitable regime chance comes, how long will it take for them to hold up their hands for a massive increase in foreign aid?

I'm going to say 12 hours.

 

[TenEightyOne]

But when the inevitable regime chance comes, how long will it take for them to hold up their hands for a massive increase in foreign aid?

I'm going to say 12 hours.

And why not? If investment kick-starts a new economy then it's good. We'll have to see if that's how it works out of course.

As aside: an interesting article about Mugabe on the BBC.

 

[UKMikey]

 

[ghostrider135]

You'd have thought by now someone would have tried to assassinate Mugabe, But nope hes still there clinging on like crap on a carpet.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You'd have thought by now someone would have tried to assassinate Mugabe, But nope hes still there clinging on like crap on a carpet.

Not high value enough for the west to dispose of him, nor anything to really gain.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Not high value enough for the west to dispose of him, nor anything to really gain.

The country is very rich in resources, added to that there are a lot of families (both black and white) displaced as refugees from the country. The country's never really had a good shot at post-colonial life, first there was Ian Smith and his effective apartheid and then Mugabe. It's in a lot of people's interests to see economic and social stability return.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

The country is very rich in resources, added to that there are a lot of families (both black and white) displaced as refugees from the country. The country's never really had a good shot at post-colonial life, first there was Ian Smith and his effective apartheid and then Mugabe. It's in a lot of people's interests to see economic and social stability return.

Yes resources that the U.S. has the corner market on, and no reason to rid a leader or want to help change the platform. So there isn't really anything the west wants enough or is being stopped from having to wish to help change the political climate. The only people who have an interest in seeing that stability are the people who live there (reasonable). So what was confusing about my original post?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes resources that the U.S. has the corner market on, and no reason to rid a leader or want to help change the platform. So there isn't really anything the west wants enough or is being stopped from having to wish to help change the political climate. The only people who have an interest in seeing that stability are the people who live there (reasonable). So what was confusing about my original post?

I wasn't at all confused - I just don't see why it isn't in the west's interest if refugee families can be repatriated or if Zimbabwe rejoins the oil and gold markets as a stable supplier. To my mind there are definite gains to be had from Mugabe and his immediate family remaining removed. Those gains could even extend to Europe and the USA given our mining technologies.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I wasn't at all confused - I just don't see why it isn't in the west's interest if refugee families can be repatriated or if Zimbabwe rejoins the oil and gold markets as a stable supplier. To my mind there are definite gains to be had from Mugabe and his immediate family remaining removed. Those gains could even extend to Europe and the USA given our mining technologies.

I don't know send a tweet to Barack or Trump ask them what's the deal. When a nation does bad things yet works with the U.S. they tend to get away with it. For instance Bahrain hosts the 7th fleet and yet we said nothing as they did horrible things during the Arab Spring, but yet look who we did respond to with some sort of condemnation or action. This is no different, they have resources, we get American mining companies there to mine such resources and so on. And this is all under the same guy who is in power, I think you're taking my somewhat sarcastic and critical response as support for a regime, which is why I asked what confusions you might be having.

There is nothing more for me to say.

 

[Dennisch]

 

[justin credible]

Africa is a place where people are homeless and starving and groups go around killing there fellow man, HIV is rife and it's leaders are a bit dodgy at best or is that America?
In all seriousness though I don't know what is to be done to sort Africa's problems it is just horrible the way some countries are.