Aircraft being attacked by lasers

[Northstar]

In your scenario most people would grab a flashlight, not a high powered laser.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Now as to uses for high powered lasers?

Well, without the modern high powered portable laser we would lose all those modern high-def. surveys, cheap alignment tools and other measuring devices that make modern life so much fun.

Heck, iRacing would have no uber-detailed tracks to brag about

Laser Pointers, not several thousand dollar expensive laser devices no one can buy or alignment tools.

 

[RC45]

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[Joel]

I can't believe this. Banning laser pointers.

 

[porkchop87]

Just make laser pointers illegal, problem solved.

They have no practical use... they're more often than not misused anyway...

 

[RC45]

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[Joel]

Just make laser pointers illegal, problem solved.

They have no practical use... they're more often than not misused anyway...

Just make drugs illegal, problem solved.


Yeah, it hasn't really worked, has it?

Bottom line, no matter if they're legal or not, some idiot's going to do this, and there's really no way to stop it.

 

[the Interceptor]

There's nothing innately dangerous about a laser pointer, high-powered or not. Or a car. Or a gun. I've no idea what your point here could possibly be either.

Come on Famine, give this guy a break, please! Of course you know what his point is, you just want to tease him until he backs off and reverts his statement. Is that really necessary?

I completely agree that a laser pointer as such is not more or less a dangerous weapon than most ofther things of our daily life. Pretty much everything I can lay my hands on while typing this could be used in a potentially harmful way against a person, may it be directly or indirectly.

Laser pointers however seem to be a special case, as they are one of the few devices which seem to be perfect to blind other people over a distance while not being of much use in the practical world anymore. Whether that justifies a general ban is in the eye of the beholder, but since only very few people actually need a laser pointer for work or otherwise, this seems to be the easiest way to contain the problem. It will become more difficult to get hold of a laser pointer, and I suppose that people who use a laser pointer in a harmful way could also be charged more severely.

 

[RC45]

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[the Interceptor]

What is with peoples knee jerk "ban this and ban that" response to everything?

Why did you quote my post together with this comment? If that's what you read out of my statement, you should probably read it again. Or are you busy defending your property against trespassers?

 

[RC45]

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[the Interceptor]

I read your post - you are discussing the idea of a ban on a device in an attempt to alter peoples behaviour. An action that never works - ever.

Whether a ban is effective or not depends on the desirability of the object. Taking the example of drugs, a ban doesn't work because illegally selling them is quite profitable, and your customers are addicted to your product. One has to question whether illegally importing and selling laser pointers would be a crime worth committing since the reward is not that high, and only very few people want them as much that they would try to buy one illegally.

And no need to worry about trespassers - the one's that can read stay away of their own accord.

I expected nothing less.

 

[DQuaN]

Except if a low flying object appears directly over my property and I need to swing up a hand held search light to ID it...

Eh, what??

I get helicopters over my house every now and then. When they hover over my house, I know it's a police helicopter, Probably looking for a joyrider or a chav or something. I don't need a flashlight to identify this.

Are you afraid it might be a flying saucer? A very angry butterfly? Some mad inventor on his pedal powered flying machine perhaps?

I don't see the need to go outside and shine lights at it.

 

[RC45]

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[Northstar]

Read this, basically as long as they are a few hundred feet above your land you can't do anything about it.

 

[RC45]

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[the Interceptor]

Incorrect.

The only measure of success of a "ban" on anything, is if the behaviour you are trying to alter is curtailed.

You are hoping to stop the already illegal act of interfering with an aircraft underway by banning laser pointers.

The people who are inclined to point their lasers at aircraft are already breaking the law, so how do you hope to alter their already illegal behaviour by adding yet another law?

And this simply proves that creating yet another law and banning laser pointers will NOT alter the already illegal behaviour of interfering with an aircraft underway.

After all, the ONLY people you are trying to affect with your law banning laser pointers are the very same FEW PEOPLE who will obtain one illegally.

Those with an illegal intent will carry out their actions despite your new laws. All your new law will do is create a new class of criminal, those that have a legitimate reason to have a laser pointer.

The idea of this law is to make laser pointers so rare that people will stop to buy them randomly just to fool around with them. Of course, those who buy them to do harm will likely still be able to get hold of one in some way and continue their wrongdoings. Nonetheless, blinding pilots often are didoes done by youngsters who are not aware of the danger they put the people on that plane on. A ban of laser pointers would likely force this group to waste their time otherwise, as they only do it in the first place because laser pointers are cheaply and readily available.

I understand that this very much goes against your sentiment of living in a free country where you can do whatever you like to do.

And I expect nothing less than "ban it" as your first response to any social issue.

I asked you to read my post again, but seemingly you didn't. Would you be so kind to point out where exactly I said something along the lines of "ban it" or "I would like to see laser pointers banned!" in the following text?

Come on Famine, give this guy a break, please! Of course you know what his point is, you just want to tease him until he backs off and reverts his statement. Is that really necessary?

I completely agree that a laser pointer as such is not more or less a dangerous weapon than most ofther things of our daily life. Pretty much everything I can lay my hands on while typing this could be used in a potentially harmful way against a person, may it be directly or indirectly.

Laser pointers however seem to be a special case, as they are one of the few devices which seem to be perfect to blind other people over a distance while not being of much use in the practical world anymore. Whether that justifies a general ban is in the eye of the beholder, but since only very few people actually need a laser pointer for work or otherwise, this seems to be the easiest way to contain the problem. It will become more difficult to get hold of a laser pointer, and I suppose that people who use a laser pointer in a harmful way could also be charged more severely.

That is the difference betwen someone already living in a police state and someone who chooses to not allow their home to become a police state.

I am permitted to investigate who is over my property, you have already accepted that you no longer have that freedom.

I probably don't, but I can well live with that. I like my share of freedom, and while you may think otherwise, Germany is quite a free country. And I'm not sure whether I'd want to live in a country where pointing a bright light at a helicopter hovering above my neighborhood at night is a valid demonstration of individual freedom.

 

[RC45]

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[Azuremen]

We should probably restrict cars more heavily, and ban alcohol, and fireworks, and anything that has a sharp point on it. Because really, most people don't need these things.

 

[vfrmaverick]

We should probably restrict cars more heavily, and ban alcohol, and fireworks, and anything that has a sharp point on it. Because really, most people don't need these things.

Ban computers too, since most people dont have a real need to them because theres typewriters, encyclopedias and books out there. Actually baning computers may have the positive action of making it so idiots dont spread their moronic ideas all over.



As someone in flight school and a laser lover i can tell you that it is a possible problem, Ive yet to have it happen to me, but can see how anoying it would be. Someone got caught down here shining one from his apartment. People forget that on camera the beam is clearly visible (my blue on is visible to the eye at night).

 

[a6m5]

Anybody trying to blind the pilot with lasers should be shot IMO. I don't know what good banning lasers would do. If someone decides to use high powered laser to bring down a plane, he will find a way, even illegally.

I don't agree with flashing powerful lights at the helicopters though. If you don't like someone spying your home, harassing you, etc., you should file complaint or report with the police. I understand that you don't like your privacy being invaded, but personally, I don't think you should endanger the lives of your neighbors, or of the people in the craft over curiosity. That's me anyway.

P.S. Is my computer broken, or does it say "helo"? Is this a new way to call choppers or something?

 

[the Interceptor]

So how many planes have crashed because some kid pointed a laser at the cockpit?

100, 76, 54, 37, 21, 11, 8, 4,2 or maybe even 1??

Sounds like your legislation will do NOTHING to prevent the malicious act of someone intentionally trying to blind pilots. And last I checked on close approach the pilot is looking p away from the ground so not sure exactly how a ground based laser is going to "blind th pilots' and cause a crash - when the entire approach procedure is undertaken by multiple crew members and would handle the "blinded pilot" the same way they would a "heart attacked pilot".

You are trying to solve a NON EXISTING problem with pointless legislation that will not be able to prevent anything - you yourself admit the real terrorist is going to ignore all laws anyway.

See, now you're trying to say that the problem is so small that it doesn't need solving, because nothing bad has ever happened (to my knowledge at least). So which one is it now?

Outlawing "laser pointers" will not make them rare. You can buy approx 1000 different types of portable handheld laser levels for less than $10. That is 1000 different models and makes of "laser pointers" with legitimate uses you will now try "outlaw' for no real purpose?

The problem we two guys have is that you are so far away from even beginning to trying to understand this approach that you will never ever be able to grasp this concept. I'd actually be happy if you'd try, but to be honest I don't think you will.

Sort of like those free-for-all Autobahns you have where there is no speedlimit... talk about out of control chaos... right??

Autobahns work pretty well, thank you.

Seriously? I just bold-ed the bit where you "discuss banning laser pointers".

Whether that justifies a general ban is in the eye of the beholder, but since only very few people actually need a laser pointer for work or otherwise, this seems to be the easiest way to contain the problem.

In this sentence, I merely say that I think banning laser pointers in general might be a way to contain the problem. I didn't say that they should be banned, and didn't say that I want to see them banned. It is a simple evaluation by me of whether a proposed "solution" would get rid of an existing problem.

I was actually addressing DQuaN (...)

You're right, my bad, sorry!

(...), but exactly why would you object to being able to inspect the noise about your property? Until you investigate the disturbance, you have no idea if it is a helicopter, a para glider in trouble.

Hell, if you are near the Mexican border it could easily be a drug cartel chopper looking to drop merchandise to local runners - in which case you will be hailed as a hero for exposing them.

See, again this knee jerk "ban' and "civilians must cower" attitude is not living in freedom by any measure - it is being subservient to the government. It is almost as if there are entire countries of people that think THEY exist to serve the government rather than the other way around.

Fascinating.

Interesting how you turn everything I say into something I didn't really say, nor mean. Kind of reminds me of certain American media. But anyway...

Why would I not point a bright light at a flying object hovering above my neighbourhood? Because I'd assume it is a chopper looking for someone or something. And given they don't have searchlight turned on, I'd also assume they use some kind of nightvision equipment, in which case being blinded by a lamp wouldn't really help much. I would assume that someone up there is just doing his job, and that he does it best when I, as a bystander, don't interfere. If that is "serving the government" for you, then so be it. I just know that if I were that pilot, I wouldn't want to be blinded by bright lights from the ground I'm hovering above, so I don't do it to him either. Whether I have a right to do it or not doesn't really matter to me. And I can still sleep at night.

Somehow I can't help the feeling you're just hearing this unbearably loud "A communist!!!" WOOOOOOSH in your head whenever you read something I wrote - your responses don't really seem to interact with my statements that much.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Anybody trying to blind the pilot with lasers should be shot IMO. I don't know what good banning lasers would do. If someone decides to use high powered laser to bring down a plane, he will find a way, even illegally.

The problem is that these things are cheap and easy to get, most people don't plan to "bring down a plane", but they buy them for a couple of bucks and mess around with them, including pointing them at aircrafts.

"Helo" is just abbreviation for "Helicopter" as far as I know.

 

[Dotini]

The problem is that these things are cheap and easy to get, most people don't plan to "bring down a plane", but they buy them for a couple of bucks and mess around with them, including pointing them at aircrafts.

This is a good example of the double-edged and paradoxical nature of technology. A $2 laser wielded by a moron can bring down a multi-million dollar airplane with hundreds aboard. An uneducated peasant in Afghanistan can build, plant and detonate an inexpensive IED that destroys a million dollar tank with college educated men inside.

There is nothing inherently good, progressive or "right" about technology. It is amoral, without purpose or conscience. In a world of bad, degenerate or amoral people, technology will be used for bad, degenerate and amoral ends. It is within the capability of mankind, using any one of a number of WMD's, or even misguided industrial technologies, to severely damage whole populations of plants, animals and people.

It is questionable whether human capacity for selfish, thoughtless destruction has exceeded human capacity for wisdom, love, and community.

In short, humanity, our culture and technology, may have evolved too far beyond humble beginnings for our own overall good.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[OG_Wretch]

Technology or no, any fool can be a destroyer with most of them being just angry impotent Napoleons
that haven't worked out their own personal issues gained in childhood.

While they certainly should have the opportunity to work through those issues to become useful members of society
once they cross the line and endanger or take the lives of others there should be serious and certain consequences.

In regards to downing aircraft, whether they use a laser, a bean fling or a sack of feathers is irrelevent.
Punish the criminals or wrong doers in such a manner that or until they understand not to do it again.
No matter if they resolve their own personal issues or not and make it public so others comtemplating such an act get fair warning.

 

[RC45]

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[the Interceptor]

And again you prove my point.

Exactly what would banning or closely controlling lasers accomplish?

You are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. If the laser is such a danger to pilots eyes, then you need to outlaw all silver metal roofs as well - they could cast a blinding reflection at a pilot and temp. blind them.

I am still waiting to hear what danger a "temporarily blinded" pilot faces? Considering almost the entire trip any modern aircraft covers is done well within scope and guidelines of IFR. SO how again is a temporarily flashed laser any different to any other "event" in the sky?

A possible scenario:

A plane is being landed manually by a pilot. Just before touchdown, the pilot is blinded by someone pointing a laser pointer at the cockpit. The pilot is momentarily confused and loses focus on the task at hand. The copilot, being suprised by the new situation, fails to understand what is going on and does not take control of the plane in time. The plane touches down hard, a part of the landing gear collapses, the plane spins out of control, crashes and burns.

All of this happened because someone found it funny to play around with a laser pointer "to annoy other people". Shouldn't we take measures to prevent that from happening if we can?

No - the problem is yet another person in the world imagining a problem and then thinking the only solution to the none existent problem is yet more control and legislation.

I never said a ban is the only solution. I just said it might be a possible solution.

Everything need to restrict, control and punish someone who burns the eyes of a pilot out and causes a crash are in place already. No need for MORE laws.

It is already illegal to interfere with an aircraft underway - doesn't matter what tool was used - the action is still illegal and will result in punishment.

It is absolutely correct - at least I assume so - that there are plenty of laws in place which offer punishment for those actions. That however doesn't seem to keep people away from it. The idea behind introducing a ban of laser pointers is to prevent the crime from happening in the first place.

Ah - you took the bait

You prove my point yet again. No-one needs a 260kmh car - in fact out side of a race track a FEW German roads it is not legal to go 260kmh - so there for ALL cars should be restricted to 120kmh and the autobahns shut down - they are unneeded and dangerous. I mean there have been more accidents on the autobahn than planes brought down by laser pointers, yet you talk about banning laser pointers and not automobiles

I will drop this part if you don't mind, because it is pretty far off-topic. If you would like to adress this further, please send me a PM.

And which is discussing banning laser pointers. Not sure what the problem is here you are discussing the idea - you might lean either way, but you are still discussing the idea of banning laser pointers. I merely pointed out you are discussing it. It must be a language thing. *shrug*

It is a language thing if you consider that what you say now is not what you said before. I do not deny that I am discussing a ban of laser pointers (mainly because it is a good part of the topic of this thread). What I have a problem with is being accused of coming up with the idea, which I clearly didn't:

And I expect nothing less than "ban it" as your first response to any social issue.

As I said, I offered my evaluation of whether this would help, and nothing more.

Pointless jab at "America" - I will refrain but have a 1,000 retorts about Germany, having German family makes for having lots of mud to sling

Feel free to do so, via PM of course.

You don't seem to be a very good German - no attention to detail.

I never once referenced a helo being "over the neighbourhood" - I went to great pains to specifically say "over my property".

I am quite aware of what you said. The original case which sparked this part of the discussion however was referring to a helicopter of the National Guard hovering above "the neighborhood", to which you replied that they have no business in hovering over private residences in the first place.

Couple that with a lot or "assumptions" on your part - you are just "assuming" they are permitted to be there doing what they are doing - sounds more like apathy than anything else. Do you normally just accept violations of trust, privacy and ethics as the norm because "people must surely just be doing their job".

Well, eveything could be a threat to me. Every person I meet somewhere could hold me at gunpoint just a moment later and not-so-kindly ask for my money. At every traffic light, someone could step next to my car, pull me out through the window, get in and drive away with it. Every helicopter hovering above my neighborhood could be a group of burglars trying to sample their next area of prey. Everything could be everything. I'm not sure whether freedom actually is freedom however if it means that I constantly feel the urge to investigate every happening which I deem potentially harmful, wrong or unlawful. Sounds more like paranoia.

No, what I am hearing is "spineless socialist drone".

Not much different but still not a position I choose to live in - that is why I immigrated to the USA 15 years ago - to not have to live under such arbitrary "control"

Since you mentioned you have a German family, am I correct in assuming that you emigrated from Germany? Either way, I'd love to hear what made you leave the country you came from and move to America, via PM if you don't mind.

Anyway, I am still wanting someone to explain to me how a laser pointer is going to "bring down a big jet full of nuns and infants".

Please explain.

See example at the beginning of this post.

 

[BrutherSuperior]

A possible scenario:

A plane is being landed manually by a pilot. Just before touchdown, the pilot is blinded by someone pointing a laser pointer at the cockpit. The pilot is momentarily confused and loses focus on the task at hand. The copilot, being suprised by the new situation, fails to understand what is going on and does not take control of the plane in time. The plane touches down hard, a part of the landing gear collapses, the plane spins out of control, crashes and burns.

Interesting hypothetical.

Now ask yourself, how one would enforce a law against shining a laser at a plane? You can't. Things like an address, intersection, or what the perpetrator is wearing will be impossible to identify from an airliner. You can make something illegal until you're blue in the face, but unless there's adequate enforcement, the law is pointless.

The next logical step in this thought experiment would be an outright ban on laser pointers. And that is a very-very slippery slope.

Banning a product b/c it 'can' be used in a harmful manner will most certainly lead lawmakers into the realm of ridiculousness.

Now lets take your scenario and instead of laser pointers and airplanes, replace them with wood nails and school buses. Would you or anyone call for the outright ban on nails b/c it can cause a tire failure and a gruesome death? No, you wouldn't. Nails, like baseball bats and kitchen knives, are useful tools that can be misused to cause harm. The only difference is that there isn't any data to show how many people have crashed their planes b/c of a laser pointer.

I'd really like to see the calculus on this. Things like approach speed & the angle needed to shine a laser into the pilots's eye would probably squash the argument as someone on the ground would have to be quite a distance away.

 

[sumbrownkid]

It would be pretty awesome if the airline industry develops a laser that can accurately fire a laser beam right back at the idiot trying to blind the pilot.

And the laser fired back is a hundred times stronger.

 

[RC45]

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