Aliens

[Dotini]

Dotini, where do keep digging these up?
Fascinating articles.

For Life it seems a Philosophical question: "Je pense donc je suis" René Descartes.
And there is not one Philosophy + Philosophy evolves.

Is the planet earth alive? If so does that make all plantes, stars, etc... alive...

Why would earth be alive, Earth changes, if we believe in expanding/retracting universe, it will have several generations, it reacts on the influence of industry, ...

Just to make a point: there might be other then carbon/water life here with us, but just because it works on completely different timescales then us and does not interact in a way we see "life" should, does not mean it is not there, it just means we do not observe it.

So why do we look for "carbon/water life" forms, since we will understand them and have some idea what to look for. Who knows what we might find!

Sounds like a good discussion with some beer, but never a final conclusion would come according to me, like there will never be a final philosophy.

Vince,
Thanks for your many astute questions and observations. I particularly like your final idea of a good discussion with plenty of beer and no end!!

Why is it that fire isn't considered alive, and do you think it should be? I'm rather curious on this matter.

Methinks Famine is thinking "plasma" and typing "fire".

Respectfully yours,
Dotini

 

[Famine]

Stevisiov. - in this instance the definitions of life aren't sufficient to describe fire. They are biological definitions of life and fire has no biological component. Even if you're burning a corpse.

Methinks Famine is thinking "plasma" and typing "fire".

Methinks you should stop talking for other people and inserting your own ideas in place of theirs.

Unless you want to call the Plasma Department to put out a forest plasma in their plasma engines.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

You've missed a key word:

All conditions must be satisfied to qualify as life.

I believe your example of

viruses satisfy most conditions (growth, stimulus, reproduction, adaptation) but not some (metabolism, homeostasis) and are classed as life, so there really is no hard and fast rule except that if something does not meet any of those conditions or meets fewer than it does not, it is not alive.

Does state:
* viruses do not have all properties but are life.
* if not all all (=fewer) properties are there it is not life.

=> clearly more beers needed to get to the bottom of this virus one.

Does it undergo metabolism? No.
Does it maintain homeostasis? No.
Does it possess a capacity to grow? No.
Does it respond to stimuli? No.
Does it reproduce? No.
Does it adapt to its environment? No.

So is the Earth alive? Nope.

1) This sticks to what we know/ how we interpret life today, OK, but sounds a lot like Spanish Inquisition to me, do not go outside or ... that never was most productive to progress. => However I agree that the example is far fetched, but I'm not writing a scientific paper either.
2) I rejected the definition probably earlier in my head then in writing: "works on completely different timescales then us and does not interact in a way we see "life" should, does not mean it is not there"

Your earth is not alive is indeed a view that is best defend-able to most people, including me.

I remain with a view that there are flows of fluids in the earth (magma, lava) that there is change (tectonic movement) that there is reaction (e.g. on the magnetic fields of other planets) that there is a life cycle to planets (in acceptance of a expanding/retracting universe theory), growing from inflowing space dust (very minimal) ... just like your example of fire.

We (whomever chooses so and me) currently see this as inert matter that is purely obeying laws of physics.

Conclusion remains: the physics view is the current most plausible explanation and when talking about something we do not know very well, have not observed, we should have a more open view.


On physics do you follow Newton or expand already to Einstein and how long will that view stand? For me Newton is OK since I do not move close to the speed of light in my experience of the world.

BTW it was Dotini, that accedently tried to correct you. Fire/Plasma. The article Dotini dug up was about plasma, your statement on fire is a fine example too.

 

[tyl0r_r]

If space is infinite I'm sure there's something on some other planet somewhere that is alive. That's good enough for me, even if it's a tree on some desolate burg a million light years off (bad example).

 

[Famine]

clearly more beers needed to get to the bottom of this virus one

Not particularly. Viruses meet fewer of the conditions than fire does, but the conditions are for the biological definition of life. Fire is not biological in origin, but a virus is.

I remain with a view that there are flows of fluids in the earth (magma, lava) that there is change (tectonic movement) that there is reaction (e.g. on the magnetic fields of other planets) that there is a life cycle to planets (in acceptance of a expanding/retracting universe theory), growing from inflowing space dust (very minimal) ... just like your example of fire.

Changing, fluid flows, magnetic fields... none are related to the biological definition of life - but since the Earth is not biological in origin (though some of the things pasted over the outer 200-300m of it are) it's not relevant anyway.

On physics do you follow Newton or expand already to Einstein and how long will that view stand? For me Newton is OK since I do not move close to the speed of light in my experience of the world.

Close enough. The planet you're standing on is revolving at about 900mph - which isn't an appreciable fraction of c (0.000001c, give or take). It's moving around the Sun at about 67,000mph (0.0001c, or so). The entire Solar System is blitzing around Galactic Centre at about 500,000mph (0.001c). The galaxy - and several other local ones - is moving towards a region called the "Shapley Supercluster" at 2.5 million mph (0.005c).

So just by standing still, you're moving 74 million miles every day. Without taking into account the rate of the expansion of the universe, which would have you approaching far more relativistic speeds.

BTW it was Dotini, that accedently tried to correct you.

I know. I quoted him doing it.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Close enough. The planet you're standing on is revolving at about 900mph - which isn't an appreciable fraction of c (0.000001c, give or take). It's moving around the Sun at about 67,000mph (0.0001c, or so). The entire Solar System is blitzing around Galactic Centre at about 500,000mph (0.001c). The galaxy - and several other local ones - is moving towards a region called the "Shapley Supercluster" at 2.5 million mph (0.005c).

So just by standing still, you're moving 74 million miles every day. Without taking into account the rate of the expansion of the universe, which would have you approaching far more relativistic speeds.

That is why I stated:

in my experience of the world

I know I'm only fooling myself, but sometimes reality is hard to handle.
e.g. with the theory above, sitting in front of GT5p or driving a Veyron at full blast hardly makes a difference in the speed you are at.

But we seem to agree: for aliens: human kind in general is looking for proof of life in the biological sense, not originating from earth.

Only statement from my side: if it is alien why would it be like us, why would it follow our definition of "life" in the biological sense.

Edit: Just found this avatar on the forum:

Still too traditional for me.

 

[FoolKiller]

Only statement from my side: if it is alien why would it be like us, why would it follow our definition of "life" in the biological sense.

We are specist. The simple fact is that we can only judge life by what we have witnessed as life. It is quite possible that we may miss finding life because we don't recognize it as such. In that case we better hope that whatever we find is intelligent enough to communicate, or we will miss it.

But don't think that xenobiologists aren't aware of this fact. It is the reason why they study some of the most inhospitable regions of Earth. They have gone so far deep in the ocean that there is no sunlight (which we once believed was the source of all energy for all life on Earth) and found entire ecosystems that they believe are powered by geothermal vents. Life found a way to exist without the energy source that we have all taken for granted.

That is extremely important because there are oceanic moons in our own solar system, such as Europa, that are covered in ice, but are believed to be liquid underneath due to geothermal activity. We have a model of what to look for that we could have possibly overlooked.

For a more detailed explanation of all of this I highly suggest watching James Cameron's "Aliens of the Deep."

However, the one thing we have yet to see anywhere is in-organic life forms. If we do it better be like a Transformer, otherwise we will think it is a usable resource and commit xenocide without ever knowing it.

Arthur C Clarke's Rama series of books touches on this notion of life that we wouldn't recognize in the fourth book. Fortunately, in that situation we are introduced to them by another species, with a much higher intelligence.

 

[Famine]

But we seem to agree: for aliens: human kind in general is looking for proof of life in the biological sense, not originating from earth.

I don't think that's the case.

Our local searches focus on biological life (if that's not a tautology) - usually hunting for water since biological life seems to depend upon it. However our astronomical searches both look for water and non-natural electromagnetic radiation, as a sign of technological advancement of whatever life exists.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

I don't think that's the case.

Our local searches focus on biological life (if that's not a tautology) - usually hunting for water since biological life seems to depend upon it. However our astronomical searches both look for water and non-natural electromagnetic radiation, as a sign of technological advancement of whatever life exists.

True, non-natural electromagnetic radiation is not looking for carbon-water, still is is looking for "technological advancement" in the way we expect it to be done by developed societies, this also limits very much the "life" you are looking for (you would miss the dinosaurs).

Nevertheless seems to me a sensible thing to do, anybody bright ideas what else could be analyzed?

I guess that since we found the first extrasolar planet in 1995 (source wikipedia), we can expect some time before Alien life (probably a lot smaller) will come out.

 

[Dotini]

Nevertheless seems to me a sensible thing to do, anybody bright ideas what else could be analyzed?

One simple and inexpensive thing we could do is to reorient the current fleet of SETI antennae. They should be pointing towards the galactic center, not to the fringes like us. They might also be tuned to more interesting frequencies. I like classical and doo-wop.

Respectfully,
Dotini

 

[Vince_Fiero]

One simple and inexpensive thing we could do is to reorient the current fleet of SETI antennae. They should be pointing towards the galactic center, not to the fringes like us. They might also be tuned to more interesting frequencies. I like classical and doo-wop.

Respectfully,
Dotini

Made me find this article:
http://www.astroengine.com/?p=5730

SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) should be changed to the Search for Extraterrestrial Artefacts (SETA), where we’d have to look for evidence of alien civilizations past.
There’s another factor to consider. What if an advanced extraterrestrial civilization simply isn’t transmitting? If this is the case, perhaps we should consider a Search for Extraterrestrial Technology (SETT). In this case we could look for alien megastructures, searching for the stuff of science fiction. These structures could include examples of Dyson Spheres, huge alien-made hollow spheres containing a star; a means to harvest all the stellar energy for a vastly advanced civilization.

These are all options, and we shouldn’t close any possibility, no matter how extreme they may be.

Sadly enough, not closing possibilities, does not mean no priorities.

Like the idea to look for "Dyson Spheres".

http://artofkaren.blogspot.com/2006/10/extraterrestrial-intelligence-march-10.html

 

[Dotini]

Like the idea to look for "Dyson Spheres".
[/IMG]

Will "Buckyballs" do?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-10730280

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Will "Buckyballs" do?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-10730280

Sorry, miss the link between Buckyballs and Alien life.

Yes it proves there is carbon, but I think there is no doubt about this.
Nobody seems to doubt that "Buckyballs" can be created spontaneously in space. So there presence just proves it happened. Does not prove there is a mad alien professor creating them.

However "Dyson Spheres" would be purposefully build technology, not expected as natural phenomenon.

More for your Astronomy and Cosmology thread, I admit to have seen it for the first time today and it is underappreciated.

 

[FoolKiller]

For a more detailed explanation of all of this I highly suggest watching James Cameron's "Aliens of the Deep."

Or Discovery.com could have an article on new geothermal vents being explored today.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/dee...d-offers-alien-life-model.html#mkcpgn=rssnws1

Far from sunlight, deep under the ocean surface, hydrothermal vents sponsor bizarre communities of life not like anything else found on Earth. But these hot spots of life found in extreme geological settings could yield clues to how life may have existed on other planets.

The deepest vent discovered, named Piccard, sits 2,600 feet deeper than the previous deepest vent recorder holder. This vent is common across mid-ocean ridges and is found in magnesium- and iron-rich rocks, or mafic rocks.

Scientists are excited because they have no previous microbial data from this kind of deep, high-temperature vent.

Another newly discovered vent, Walsh, is located in a slightly different setting. The host rock is ultramafic -- a rare rock that forms at very high temperatures.

The third site Europa, named after the icy Jupiter moon that scientists believe may have life on it, is particularly unique. Though it is situated in an ultramafic environment like Walsh, it is a shallow vent with low temperatures. Scientists have only seen this type of vent once before at the "Lost City" site in the mid-Altantic ocean.

Discovering these sites is only the first step. The scientists plan on returning to each of the vents to better examine the different types of communities living there -- and ponder how life may have existed in distant lands (or waters) like Europa.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

FoolKiller could yield clues to how life may have existed on other planets

Seems that we soon will plan to dig up Pluto to see if there is nothing underneath that could support life?

More serious, this indeed could lead to some better idea of what the moons of Jupiter (especially Europa) could be holding. Still we have to limit ourselves at this moment to what we can see on earth to imagine what to look for in space. Also proves how much we still have to learn about our immediate surroundings.

 

[Dotini]

Two UFO videos.
http://io9.com/5604004/two-ufo-videos-without-shakycam-are-weirdly-convincing

Churchill orders 50 year coverup for fear of destroying people's belief in the church?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...panic-over-Second-World-War-RAF-incident.html

 

[Sureboss]

And?

 

[Dotini]

And?

That's a tough question! What do you think? What exactly would you like to know next?

 

[Sureboss]

Your point perhaps, videos like that aren't new and don't prove anything.

 

[Dotini]

The public and the government at the highest levels have an abiding interest in this topic. Not only is public safety and national security involved, so is the survival of human institutions such as the church and its gods, but also belief and adherence to reason, the work ethic, and technological progress.

Numerous studies over decades have shown that established civilizations come unraveled when confronted by superior beings from afar.

So the topic is relevant to our lives, and the mystery persists. Occasionally tantalizing glimpses into this strange reality emerges when candid videos and previously secret government records are released.

It astonishes me that more folks here at GTP have not seen them in person. But, to see them, you must be outdoors, usually at night. Perhaps our demographic of game-playing, beer-guzzling young party animals does not make for the best set of night watchmen.

The videos were good and clear, and showed hints of structure. My guess is that they both are likely deceptions. But deceptions by whom? The videographer, the military, a weird animal, an "alien", or something else altogether? Wouldn't you like to know?

 

[Sureboss]

I couldn't care less, does it not make you wonder when all reports show the exact same thing?

"Ooh look a saucer!"
"Ooh look a green man!"
"Hey green man, take that probe out my ass!"

Numerous studies over decades have shown that established civilizations come unraveled when confronted by superior beings from afar.

Yep, Rome was brought down by Caesar being anally probed by a green man with a squeaky voice.

But, to see them, you must be outdoors, usually at night.

Aliens are nocturnal. Interesting.

National security? Oh noes, they are going to come and kill us all with some weapons I once read about in a book.

I accept that the reality is "aliens" exist, there are too many stars in too many galaxies for there to not be a chance of some rock housing life, not forgetting the exciting research on Titan. The idea that they'd come to visit insignifcant us is fantastical.

Couldn't care less about it affecting the religious institutions, as they mean nowt to me and have no merit anyway.

Do you not find it weird that the UFO's, which are clearly alien craft and that alien sightings always match up with the sci-fi books we read?

 

[Dotini]

I couldn't care less, does it not make you wonder when all reports show the exact same thing?

"Ooh look a saucer!"
"Ooh look a green man!"
"Hey green man, take that probe out my ass!"



Yep, Rome was brought down by Caesar being anally probed by a green man with a squeaky voice.



Aliens are nocturnal. Interesting.

National security? Oh noes, they are going to come and kill us all with some weapons I once read about in a book.

I accept that the reality is "aliens" exist, there are too many stars in too many galaxies for there to not be a chance of some rock housing life, not forgetting the exciting research on Titan. The idea that they'd come to visit insignifcant us is fantastical.

Couldn't care less about it affecting the religious institutions, as they mean nowt to me and have no merit anyway.

Do you not find it weird that the UFO's, which are clearly alien craft and that alien sightings always match up with the sci-fi books we read?

I deny that there are alien saucers.
I deny that there are green men.
I deny that aliens are probing humans.
I deny that Rome was brought down by Caesar probed by green men.
I deny aliens are nocturnal. The UFO phenomenon is present at all times. Statistics show most sightings are made at night.
I deny that we are being visited by aliens.
I deny that aliens are a threat to us. The UFO phenomenon has the power to usurp religious authority to destructive ends, Remember the Heaven's Gate UFO suicide cult? This is one reason why government (intelligence agencies) worry and monitor them.
I deny that UFO's are alien craft.
UFO's do have national security implications. In the 60's, I and many other witnesses saw a fleet of them hovering directly over a nuclear submarine base. They were zooming about, changing color and size.
I do positively assert that the UFO phenomenon is real, and has some very weird aspects. If you want to know more, I can help you. If you don't want to know more, why do you post here?

Respectfully yours,
Dotini

 

[FoolKiller]

I deny that aliens are probing humans.

Well, that takes all the fun out of it.

 

[DK]

I deny that UFO's are alien craft.

Mainly because any object in the sky that is unidentifiable (hence the "U") is technically a UFO. Including pigs shot into the sky by Adam Savage and Jamie Hyneman.

 

[Sureboss]

If you want to know more, I can help you. If you don't want to know more, why do you post here?

Respectfully yours,
Dotini

Know? No, you assume, you don't know anything about it.

 

[Dotini]

Know? No, you assume, you don't know anything about it.

Thank you for your polite and respectful (?) inquiry. I'm reasonably modest about my knowledge of this phenomenon.

I will state my minimum qualifications:

1) I've experienced this phenomena on at least 3 separate occasions over several decades, each time in the company of several other witnesses. Although formal reports were made in each case, no explanation was ever brought forth.

2) I've read over 1000 books on the subject of UFO's. I've discarded over 800 of them as garbage and kept only the best. I have continuously pursued scientific and sociological understanding of the phenomenon over a 45 year period.

3) I've been a member of more than one organization recognized by the FAA, the USAF, and many state and local law enforcement agencies as ones to "go-to" when reports are made.

4) I've received formal training in the investigation of UFO sightings.

5) I have communicated and corresponded with respected professional investigators of this phenomenon, including (retired) members of more than one US government intelligence agency.

As I said, I would be happy to help any member of GTP understand more about this interesting phenomenon. But I would respectfully request that it be accomplished in a calm, polite and dignified manor.

Sincerely yours,
Dotini

 

[Sureboss]

You mis-read the tone of my post, I was merely clarifying the difference between knowledge and assumption.

There is quite a brash phrase for assumptions (maybe it's only a British thing), that isn't repeatable on GTP.

 

[Dotini]

I claim no infallible knowledge. I can offer only insight based on experience and a lot of effort.

 

[Grand Prix]

Incredible imagination from 1957. The piece is speculation of what life on Mars may be like, but if we were to imagine life on other worlds, some of these creatures even seem a bit plausible. Awesome mushroom-inspired animation as well,

 

[kikie]

A Roswell alien.



Maybe this has been posted already in this thread?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKd1OZ986GM&feature=player_embedded


http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/51555/Do_UFO_s_really_Exist/