America - The Official Thread

[Danoff]

Do you believe race or sexual orientation are meaningless?

In the context of the conversation yes.

Sure you can. But you can also find solidarity in a group where it's OK to eat broccoli.

That's not pride.

 

[KSaiyu]

Indeed.

I'd be interested in how you define or measure innovation in the first place.

Can't really measure it. I suppose easiest barometer in my field is to look at pioneering doctors/surgeons or scientists involved in medical research.

 

[Dotini]

I'd be interested in how you define or measure innovation in the first place.

Perhaps the acute meaning of innovation is the number of times your occupation must change as the industry you work in becomes obsolete.

For instance, over 90% of American workers were once employed in agriculture, and now it is closer to 1%.

Manufacturing has followed a similar course.

In the 70's I worked for a few years as a well-paid Xerox copy machine technician, a job title that has now all but vanished.

Back then it was known that a man would have to change careers an average of 5 times during a lifetime of employment. Now that figure may be up to 10 or 20. No sooner than expensive and specialized education is completed, it must be started anew as your industry goes obsolete.

As robots now are making even Chinese manufacturing workers redundant, it is to be wondered where all the world's would-be workers are to find employment. A world of angry, unemployed, alienated young men will not be a pretty place.

Our ability to innovate has exceeded our ability to cope with the costs of innovation.

 

[Danoff]

As robots now are making even Chinese manufacturing workers redundant, it is to be wondered where all the world's would-be workers are to find employment. A world of angry, unemployed, alienated young men will not be a pretty place.

Our ability to innovate has exceeded our ability to cope with the costs of innovation.

Spoken like someone ignoring economics. Always automation that causes jobs to be unnecessary is debated as potentially harmful economically, and always that argument is wrong. Yes, some people will need to change jobs, but that process is an overall increase in economic efficiency (those jobs will create more value in the same amount of time) and a raised standard of living.

 

[Joel]

In the context of the conversation yes.

I disagree then, because the original image was pointing out in a tongue in cheek way that white pride is racist while other groups have "pride" and criticizing that double standard. To me there's a reason why it's different, and that reason is race and the way race impacts our lives.

That's not pride.

That's what most gay and black pride movements involve and mean by the word pride. Gay pride parades aren't about declaring that being gay is the best thing ever, it's the symbolism of having a parade of millions in the most powerful cities on earth, where perhaps a decade or two ago you wouldn't even hold hands with a same sex partner on the same streets.

Our ability to innovate has exceeded our ability to cope with the costs of innovation.

You just gave two examples in agriculture and manufacturing of once widely important careers which now only employ a fraction of what they used to. Neither of these led to a collapse of society, why is it different this time? I don't understand the pessimism, the agriculture example is to me very reassuring. Since agriculture began, essentially 9/10 people were farmers, and in the span of a few hundred years that's no longer true. To me that's an amazing accomplishment, that the 1/100 farmers in the US can grow so much food that American pet dogs are overweight.

Consider that we actually have to tell people to be careful about eating too much red meat. Imagine telling someone a hundred years ago that in 2015, average people can afford to eat beef and chicken 7 days a week, and they will make a conscious effort to eat less meat out of health concerns. These advancements have brought us an insane standard of living.

 

[Danoff]

I disagree then, because the original image was pointing out in a tongue in cheek way that white pride is racist while other groups have "pride" and criticizing that double standard. To me there's a reason why it's different, and that reason is race and the way race impacts our lives.

...and yet at the same time that photo was pointing out the lack of difference. The series of photos makes no sense if you think that there is a real fundamental difference between one or the other.

That's what most gay and black pride movements involve and mean by the word pride.

What they mean is that they're not ashamed, and this is thoughtlessly confused with being proud. Me not being ashamed that I'm afraid of heights is not the same thing as me being proud that I am. Everyone be diligent in their lives to try not to take as a source of personal pride something which the have no control over.

 

[LeMansAid]

Do you believe race or sexual orientation are meaningless? I think they should be meaningless but I really can't agree that they are. Fiat money is a social construct, it's just pieces of dyed paper. Does that mean it isn't real or it doesn't mean anything? The other issue with white pride itself is the historical context of the word. It's hard to deny the connection of white pride and white supremacy groups, this is why celebrating St. Patrick's Day and being "Irish" is some harmless fun while talking about white pride is often considered racist.

You're doing it again. Trying to proportion forces. But if you're not at the fulcrum, you're not balanced. That's it. I always feel like it's a tragic loss when people capable of true balance and fairness don't assume that position.

To paraphrase you, with deviation - Your words are just pixels on a screen, but does that mean they aren't real or don't mean anything? How far do we take it? At some point we need to quite simply stand on the spot that is logical, and insist on not moving from it. But you appear to want to designate on which basis we can stray from that position of logic. And you are straying. You've entered a subjective world, where if you say that race is not meaningless, because it's not practically, another can rightly say that your words are not meaningless, and they count as a destabilising force.

Me not being ashamed that I'm afraid of heights is not the same thing as me being proud that I am.

Which completely changes if you were originally afraid of heights. I'd be proud of you for that effort, and proud of a black man that went against discriminatory laws, proud of the kid who came out to his religious parents, proud of the person with a speech impediment that attempted their acceptance speech regardless, proud of the woman that got a job when all others were expecting her to be a housewife only, proud of the woman that chose to be a housewife despite those around her telling her that it's a stereotype and she's perpetuating a patriarchal society by not getting a job. Proud of all those people, for all of those things, but not proud at all of how they were born.


* I think that those with a speech impediment are highly discriminated against. We don't get much from them in the way of protests and rallies though. Not so good with the chants.

 

[Danoff]

Which completely changes if you were originally afraid of heights. I'd be proud of you for that effort, and proud of a black man that went against discriminatory laws, proud of the kid who came out to his religious parents, proud of the person with a speech impediment that attempted their acceptance speech regardless, proud of the woman that got a job when all others were expecting her to be a housewife only, proud of the woman that chose to be a housewife despite those around her telling her that it's a stereotype and she's perpetuating a patriarchal society by not getting a job. Proud of all those people, for all of those things, but not proud at all of how they were born.


* I think that those with a speech impediment are highly discriminated against. We don't get much from them in the way of protests and rallies though. Not so good with the chants.

I think you misunderstood me. Me not being ashamed that I'm afraid of heights (and always have been) is not the same thing as me being proud of being afraid of heights.

 

[LeMansAid]

I think you misunderstood me. Me not being ashamed that I'm afraid of heights (and always have been) is not the same thing as me being proud of being afraid of heights.

No misunderstanding. I was running with, not against, and pointing out where pride is actually appropriate, in contrast to where as you rightly pointed out, simply the absence of shame is appropriate.

 

[Joel]

You're doing it again. Trying to proportion forces. But if you're not at the fulcrum, you're not balanced. That's it. I always feel like it's a tragic loss when people capable of true balance and fairness don't assume that position.

Can I ever be at the fulcrum? I benefit from a system that's given me numerous benefits for no reason other than being born to white parents in an English speaking first world country. I was even lucky enough that the way I happened to be taught to speak English is considered "proper" rather than "ghetto" or "uneducated". I have a "white", English name. I'm a man. The way I dress is considered "normal", or even "professional". All things out of my control, but because they're valued by the society I live in, I have advantages in life which are simply unavailable to people who weren't born into my demographic.

The world is not proportional. Call it white guilt if you wish, but I can never truly be at the fulcrum, because whether or not I believe that it should, the lever is applying a force on me which makes my life easier. If I step away, I haven't become balanced, I've only stopped talking about imbalance. My culture is the default, and if we simply all stopped talking about race I'd benefit from it in a way people of no other race would. I think you're underrating the latent casual racism that still exists and the way it impacts people's everyday lives. Something as simple as whether you "ask" or "aks" a question, or if your name is John or Terrell can decide whether or not you get a job interview. There's a lot of casual racism between the west in 2015 and a truly colourblind society, and I don't believe that goes away if we stop talking about it.

To paraphrase you, with deviation - Your words are just pixels on a screen, but does that mean they aren't real or don't mean anything? How far do we take it? At some point we need to quite simply stand on the spot that is logical, and insist on not moving from it. But you appear to want to designate on which basis we can stray from that position of logic. And you are straying. You've entered a subjective world, where if you say that race is not meaningless, because it's not practically, another can rightly say that your words are not meaningless, and they count as a destabilising force.

That was what I was getting at, we don't need to base everything on a completely soild and objective basis. Language and fiat currency are both highly subjective things, but we base our entire modern lives around them. Similarly, race is something highly subjective and dependent on context, but in my opinion it is a big part of people's experiences in life and can't be ignored.

No misunderstanding. I was running with, not against, and pointing out where pride is actually appropriate, in contrast to where as you rightly pointed out, simply the absence of shame is appropriate.

I read this and think part of it this is semantic disagreement here because when I use the term "gay pride" I mean the absence of shame. That's my view of most "pride" movements, not that being X is literally something to be proud of and prideful for.

 

[Garage13]

well i agree that political correctness will have more to deal with the falling of this country than any terrorist organization.
I am from a mixed family myself.I have Irish,Italian on both sides
I have Haitain,chinook indian,brittish on my mother's side and I have Cherokee Indian on my father's side.
I do get confused with mexican,dominican,puerto rican but i'm not.

I personally could care less about what race you are or where you're from.All I give a rat's ass about is your character.Sometimes innovation comes from the most unlikely of sources.Before someone like Aryton Senna came along,I can nearly guarantee you the vast majority of people back when Senna was racing couldn't name a brazilian racer.hell some probably didn't even know people in brazil had cars,knew how to drive or even race

 

[prisonermonkeys]

We're getting reports here that the Amtrak train that derailed outside Philadelphia had something thrown at it before it jumped the tracks, but the reports are muddled and confused.

 

[TenEightyOne]

We're getting reports here that the Amtrak train that derailed outside Philadelphia had something thrown at it before it jumped the tracks, but the reports are muddled and confused.

Based on a recorded conversation between the driver of the train and the driver of another, both said their trains had been struck by thrown objects. Driver of the crashed train can't remember what happened though.

Seems odd that the train was able to do 100+ mph in a 50 zone though, there must be some safety system in place to stop that?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Based on a recorded conversation between the driver of the train and the driver of another, both said their trains had been struck by thrown objects. Driver of the crashed train can't remember what happened though.

Seems odd that the train was able to do 100+ mph in a 50 zone though, there must be some safety system in place to stop that?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/16/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html

At this point it's actually a conversation involving the conductor Brandon Bostian, that the assistant conductor heard over the radio, and she "believed" she heard Bostian say his train had been hit by something shortly before the crash, not long after another nearby train reported being hit by an object and had come to an emergency stop. They are now digging into the conductors social media and other accounts and finding all kinds of complaining about safety shortcuts, budget cuts etc.

 

[TenEightyOne]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/16/us/philadelphia-amtrak-train-derailment/index.html

At this point it's actually a conversation involving the conductor Brandon Bostian, that the assistant conductor heard over the radio, and she "believed" she heard Bostian say his train had been hit by something shortly before the crash, not long after another nearby train reported being hit by an object and had come to an emergency stop. They are now digging into the conductors social media and other accounts and finding all kinds of complaining about safety shortcuts, budget cuts etc.

Apologies, I hadn't noticed that detail. Here's the Beeb story, it's as you say.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Still, speed should be the overall cause of the crash. There is no logical reason why the train should be traveling at twice the speed limit.

 

[Joel]

Still, speed should be the overall cause of the crash. There is no logical reason why the train should be traveling at twice the speed limit.

The speed limit may not have been a safety issue for the train itself, it could be about noise or people being around who might walk in front of the train or something.

 

[KSaiyu]

well i agree that political correctness will have more to deal with the falling of this country than any terrorist organization.
I am from a mixed family myself.I have Irish,Italian on both sides
I have Haitain,chinook indian,brittish on my mother's side and I have Cherokee Indian on my father's side.
I do get confused with mexican,dominican,puerto rican but i'm not.

I personally could care less about what race you are or where you're from.All I give a rat's ass about is your character.Sometimes innovation comes from the most unlikely of sources.Before someone like Aryton Senna came along,I can nearly guarantee you the vast majority of people back when Senna was racing couldn't name a brazilian racer.hell some probably didn't even know people in brazil had cars,knew how to drive or even race

I agree with what you're saying, but I can imagine poor Emo sitting somewhere shedding a tear.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The speed limit may not have been a safety issue for the train itself, it could be about noise or people being around who might walk in front of the train or something.

And it could be more of a recommended speed than a strict speed limit.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Because of a law passed in 1997, Amtrak may be shelling out 8x less than the actual cost of repairs, or $200 million. Expect the law to be tested in court.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...-pay-the-full-cost-of-the-philadelphia-crash/

Fun fact: The law in question can't be adjusted for inflation. Had it been that way, they would have be responsible for just south of $300 million for the crash.

 

[FoolKiller]

Mainstream media didn't cover this and I've had trouble finding a non-biased report on this story. Real Clear Politics is the best I can do for this one. I want to bring it up because I have a bone to pick with the president's statements here.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...tes_to_less_opportunity_for_all_our_kids.html

PRESIDENT OBAMA: We don’t dispute that the free market is the greatest producer of wealth in history -- it has lifted billions of people out of poverty. We believe in property rights, rule of law, so forth. But there has always been trends in the market in which concentrations of wealth can lead to some being left behind. And what’s happened in our economy is that those who are doing better and better -- more skilled, more educated, luckier, having greater advantages -- are withdrawing from sort of the commons -- kids start going to private schools; kids start working out at private clubs instead of the public parks. An anti-government ideology then disinvests from those common goods and those things that draw us together. And that, in part, contributes to the fact that there’s less opportunity for our kids, all of our kids.

This bothers me because it is becoming a trend for some to claim that parents who send their kids to a private school are bad people. The argument seems to be that by being an involved parent that is not being involved in fixing public schools you are harming all other kids, thus making you a bad person.

I first saw this argument in Slate back in 2013.

The author's summary was this:

Your local school stinks but you don’t send your child there? Then its badness is just something you deplore in the abstract. Your local school stinks and you do send your child there? I bet you are going to do everything within your power to make it better

The president took it a step further, claiming that this causes anti-government ideology and harms eth common good all around.

OK, so if I keep my kids in public schools then we all say "Thank you, Government" and put in the effort to fix our neighborhoods? Really? I'd buy if the wealthy didn't move to neighborhoods for better public schools, creating a centralized and economic class bubble of good public schooling vs the bad schools. The Slate article points out that will happen and brushes it aside. The issue there is that people don't move to where they think they can fix a school. They move to where the school is already good.

As for this mindset that parents who do this harm their community and the common good, I can't tell you how many parents at my daughter's school volunteer in different groups. Heck, my daughter's school has regular fundraising events for non-profit organizations all the time and are sponsors of a large portion of the charitable events in town, like walks and runs. At the last walk we did, which raised money for a physical therapy clinic that serves people who can't afford to pay for physical therapy, they had a contest among the local sponsoring schools to see who could bring in the most kids (fundraising was done via entry fees). None of the public schools were involved. Add in that by participating in these events the schools are encouraging healthy activities among their kids that goes beyond a half hour in gym. Doesn't producing healthy kids that drag less on the medical community aid the community?

As for me personally, by myself I bring in more money for heart disease research in this state than the entire state government. It's not hard to do when the state government budgets $0 for our number one killer. Is it the schooling choice that is fostering an antigovernment mentality? The event that I help organize and plan for this brings in more money than federal grants provide and spend it on effective means. I work next to the government heart and stroke disease program. All their budget goes to buying pamphlets and handing them out at local health departments. The money I raise goes toward medical research as well as education. My wife is involved in the local Civitan group and has just been sworn in as an officer. They regularly serve dinners at a homeless women's shelter.

As for fixing the school, I believe the Slate article sums up my issues with that idea.

This would not happen immediately. It could take generations. Your children and grandchildren might get mediocre educations in the meantime, but it will be worth it, for the eventual common good.

It might make me a bad person, but I am going to be a good parent to my child. If you want to sacrifice your child's future for some common good that you believe will come out of generations of mediocre education that slowly improves, have at it. You are gambling your child's future on the hope that multiple generations will follow your lead and nothing in society will change to make schools better within the next generation or two.

The Slate article also tries to say that even in a crappy public education your kids will do fine.

I went K–12 to a terrible public school. My high school didn’t offer AP classes, and in four years, I only had to read one book. There wasn’t even soccer. This is not a humblebrag! I left home woefully unprepared for college, and without that preparation, I left college without having learned much there either. You know all those important novels that everyone’s read? I haven’t. I know nothing about poetry, very little about art, and please don’t quiz me on the dates of the Civil War. I’m not proud of my ignorance. But guess what the horrible result is? I’m doing fine. I’m not saying it’s a good thing that I got a lame education. I’m saying that I survived it, and so will your child, who must endure having no AP calculus so that in 25 years there will be AP calculus for all.

Her one book was an Oprah book club book? This makes sense now.

She's right, if they are average. She makes an exception for kids with special learning disabilities and physical needs, but she ignores another special learning need: Above average.
My wife and I recently went to a kindergarten readiness seminar put on by a local community early childhood council. They broke it down into five categories of learning and explained what the minimum expectations for kids going into kindergarten were. Two things stuck out. The first was that my daughter was doing most of it two years ago. She would be bored in public schools.

The other was when she told us that they ask parents to focus mainly on communication and social skills. They'll handle the academic stuff. That does not sound like an invitation for parental involvement.


Another issue that Obama himself really needs to understand is that in a world with a Common Core type system, where everyone has a specific set up to follow, that the parents are not able to make any real changes. The school administrators shrug their shoulders and explain that if they make changes they will lose a lot of funding and have to shut down something like Art.


And finally, I know President Obama is a politician, thus being a hypocrite is already a given, but he sends his daughters to a very expensive private school and back in 2010 he explained that the public schools do not meet the education quality that his daughters get now.

"I'll be blunt with you: The answer is no, right now," Obama said. D.C. public schools "are struggling," he said, but they "have made some important strides over the last several years to move in the direction of reform. There are some terrific individual schools in the D.C. system."

You first, Mr. President. You first.

 

[BobK]

So in three state in the US the leading cause of death is being shot by the cops:

https://www.yahoo.com/health/death-in-your-state-whats-the-most-distinctive-119022157667.html

...deaths by legal intervention — which are deaths caused by law enforcement officers, excluding legal executions — accounted for the most distinctive cause of death in New Mexico, Nevada and Oregon.

I'm a bit suspicious of this claim, but there it is.

 

[Sanji Himura]

BREAKING NEWS: NTSB reports that the signals involved in the Amtrak train crash are functioning properly, as reported by FOX News.

 

[catamount39]

From a railfan who knows the **** how this stuff works:

The NEC (Northeast Corridor) is 100% under a thing called "cab signaling". Its a simple but effective system which is has been around since 1930's. To be brief, every section of the line has a code which translates to a speed limit, which goes to the locomotive's cab and reads on on the display with a small signal showing the signal for the line (like clear, caution, or stop). Once the locomotive goes over the posted speed a warning is given for the engineer and he has a very very short time to readjust the speed. If no action is taken, the emergency brake is applied immediately. Now, this section of the line was all under "Code 120", which means 80mph. How the cab signaling didn't function and stop the train is a mystery, it's a pretty robust system. What's worse is that it was by some reports accelerating before the brakes were finally applied.

Before anyone says "Oh Amtrak funding" this or "Gov't spending" that...please stop thinking. Amtrak keeps this line highly maintained, they put a lot of money into this line as it is the only trackage in the entire country that they actually own. They've been starting a 30 year plan to increase the speed limits of the NEC, and the trackage between Philly and D.C. is in great shape. The locomotive blew through a curve twice as fast as it should, it wasn't maintenance or bad track. Something screwy beyond comprehension happened here and has caused one of the worst wrecks in the history of Amtrak and passenger rail in general. This is the worst incident for Amtrak since the Conrail head on, and the wreck of the Sunset Limited. And whatever or whoever responsible needs to be dealt with.

 

[Shaun]

How the cab signaling didn't function and stop the train is a mystery,

To be honest I haven't read up on the incident at all but the vigilance system can be overridden on every train that I know of by the driver.

 

[catamount39]

To be honest I haven't read up on the incident at all but the vigilance system can be overridden on every train that I know of by the driver.

The "dead-man" switch, more commonly known as the Alerter, is a different system. That signals every 30 seconds for the engineer to hit the button. That's to make sure he is awake and okay. Holding down the switch (for anyone who is about to ask) wouldn't work because they thought of that sort of thing when the FRA required its presence in the 1960's.

Cab signaling CAN'T be overridden. Cab signaling is automatically activated, no excuses. If you overspeed it applies the e-brake. Something must have happened with the locomotive...which was in this case one of the brand new ACS-64's from Siemens that started being delivered this winter so I expect the NTSB to investigate the locos as well.

 

[Shaun]

@catamount39

I know the differences having worked on or around trains for 25 years.
One way or another any system can be overridden with the correct knowledge, not saying that's what has happened here but it's something the investigators should look and will look at.

I'm not being an antagonist just pointing it out.
Either way it's a sad event.

 

[catamount39]

@catamount39

I know the differences having worked on or around trains for 25 years.
One way or another any system can be overridden with the correct knowledge, not saying that's what has happened here but it's something the investigators should look and will look at.

I'm not being an antagonist just pointing it out.
Either way it's a sad event.

Sorry, I'm mainly talking to/about the press/people who don't get how these things work...and because everybody seems to attack Amtrak at times.

As far as I know, cab signaling and it's design here in the states is usually a bullet proof system. While the Alerter as you mentioned can be over ridden (and can be easily deemed inactive like you point out), I've never come across any measure that overrides the cab signaling. NS and up to this point Amtrak have never had any event like this with this system...which has me thinking something really weird happened. I hope the NTSB finds the cause of this...I trust they will though.

It's a sad accident, one that shouldn't have happened. And one of the most horrifying that's happened in decades. An eriey event that resembles that of the horrible Pennsylvania RR wreck of 43' at the same curve.

 

[Shaun]

@catamount39

No need to apologise I should have pointed out my background in my initial post.

As you say cab signalling is pretty much bullet proof as long as deliberate human intervention isn't involved. You may be amazed at some of the things found to bypass various systems, personally I've come across bits of cardboard wedging in relay's, clip leads shorting out various terminal strips etc etc.

Let me stress though I'm not saying anything untoward was going on here just that it's happened before.

Railways around the world quite often get attacked by like you say people who have limited knowledge in what's actually required to run one at a high safety standard.

 

[catamount39]

@catamount39

No need to apologise I should have pointed out my background in my initial post.

As you say cab signalling is pretty much bullet proof as long as deliberate human intervention isn't involved. You may be amazed at some of the things found to bypass various systems, personally I've come across bits of cardboard wedging in relay's, clip leads shorting out various terminal strips etc etc.

Let me stress though I'm not saying anything untoward was going on here just that it's happened before.

Railways around the world quite often get attacked by like you say people who have limited knowledge in what's actually required to run one at a high safety standard.

No worries, glad a railroader is in here. 👍

True, simple fiddling can do a lot. However with these being so new...not sure. If it was one of the old AEM-7's then I'd be suspicious of that. My biggest worry is that some external event happened. There are what appear to be bullet holes in the windshield of the loco...and the previous SEPTA train not far from the location of the wreck was evacuated after unknown projectiles struck the cab. However that's still a more crack pot theory ATM judging from where it's coming from.

Railway's are the safest transportation there is on land (and overall perhaps). It's a huge team effort innvolving a lot of hard working people. A massive number roll across the rails everyday (in the tens of thousands if not more). If only the general public was more aware of the effort everyone gives and responsibility they carry.