America - The Official Thread

[Johnnypenso]

Even If I was wrong about you specifically my point still stands. America hasn't been the target of a terrorist attack in years and closing the border serves no purpose.

You were wrong about me specifically so I'd like to hear that specifically, not hypothetically. You've deliberately misrepresented my position and I'd like a correction.

Like my original point, gun violence from fellow citizens is still more than terrorism in the United States. Mass shooting or not, 4 people getting shot at once 360+ times is still more than terroristic acts of the same caliber. If someone is afraid of terrorism it's because they watch mainstream media too much & probably believe there is a terror cell in every state and in Mexico and Canada directly outside the border preparing for an invasion. The average American however, dosent think twice about terrorism.

I've already show 2 studies that show that terrorism is very much in the minds of Americans and I can link to many more. Why do you continue to deny obvious facts? You are wrong, end of story. Accept it and move on, because denying it makes you look foolish.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I've already show 2 studies that show that terrorism is very much in the minds of Americans and I can link to many more. Why do you continue to deny obvious facts? You are wrong, end of story. Accept it and move on, because denying it makes you look foolish.

You're right but I think the pair of you are arguing at cross purposes.

Americans are scared of terrorism (and for that I personally blame a lot of the mainstream, isolationist press outlets). The question of whether or not they should realistically be scared is a different subject and, I think, the one that @HELLAFLUSH240SX is approaching.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

Okay, I apologize for misrepresenting your views through assumptions of my own, but it came of to me that you were justifying the refusal of refugees through the use of being afraid of terrorism. Americans may be afraid of terrorism, but it's mostly due to a push by the media. I was simply trying to show that Americans are afraid of being killed, and terrorism is just an off shoot of that. @Johnnypenso will you forgive me for my brainless moment?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Okay, I apologize for misrepresenting your views through assumptions of my own, but it came of to me that you were justifying the refusal of refugees through the use of being afraid of terrorism. Americans may be afraid of terrorism, but it's mostly due to a push by the media. I was simply trying to show that Americans are afraid of being killed, and terrorism is just an off shoot of that. @Johnnypenso will you forgive me for my brainless moment?

Certainly.

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/23/us/laquan-mcdonald-chicago-dashcam-video/index.html
It's going to be a difficult week in Chicago. I have a feeling this one is going to explode.

Leaders in Chicago are calling for calm ahead of the expected release of a video which reportedly shows a white police officer shooting a black teenager 16 times.
Laquan McDonald was walking down a Chicago street the night of October 20, 2014, carrying a 4-inch knife and behaving erratically, authorities said.
Almost everyone who has seen the video says the images are graphic and show McDonald being repeatedly shot while lying on the ground. The video reportedly shows McDonald's body palpitating quickly several times, consistent with shots striking. Even defense attorneys for the officer involved admit the video is not easy to watch.

"The video is graphic, disturbing and difficult to watch, as any video of a man being shot to death would be," Daniel Herbert, the officer's attorney, told the Chicago Tribune.

 

[Swagger897]

oh boy...

 

[Parker]

Use of force always looks bad, there is no getting around that. Without knowing anything about the case other than what I just read and the video I watched via the link @Johnnypenso provided, I don't see anything that really stands out as "bad." The 17 year old was carrying a deadly weapon while high on PCP, or at least it was in his system, and he slashed an Officer's tires and apparently lunged towards an Officer as well.

Now, I've personally fought men stung out on PCP and you'd be amazed at what that drug can do. A 150-160lb man took 4 or 5 Officers to subdue, from what I understand they just don't feel pain. I've seen men with broken bones continue to fight and resist without feeling a damn thing. So shooting him while he was on the ground could be completely justifiable if McDonald was still attempting to reach for the knife.

Unfortunately people don't understand use of force and I can certainly see this blowing up too. I do find it interesting that CNN decided to show a picture of Mr. McDonald in what is presumably his gown and cap for his High School graduation, I wonder if there is any reasoning behind that. I'd also be interested to see if Mr. McDonald has any previous run ins with Law Enforcement.

@Johnnypenso do you know if the Police Department made a statement regarding this incident when it occurred?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Now, I've personally fought men stung out on PCP and you'd be amazed at what that drug can do. A 150-160lb man took 4 or 5 Officers to subdue, from what I understand they just don't feel pain. I've seen men with broken bones continue to fight and resist without feeling a damn thing. So shooting him while he was on the ground could be completely justifiable if McDonald was still attempting to reach for the knife.

I think that's bollocks, actually, if he's down he's down. If he gets back up then shoot.

 

[Sanji Himura]

Clock Kid demands $10 million from the city of Irving and a public apology from the city's mayor and police chief in 60 days or else "bad things may happen." The letter (linked here) was obtained by the Dallas Morning News this morning.

 

[Dennisch]

I think that's bollocks, actually, if he's down he's down. If he gets back up then shoot.

You clearly don't know what drugs can do to a persons physique. Buddy of mine was going bananas on speed and it took 5 cops to subdue him. And even with the 5 of them they were struggling.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You clearly don't know what drugs can do to a persons physique. Buddy of mine was going bananas on speed and it took 5 cops to subdue him. And even with the 5 of them they were struggling.

From what I gather, he was down on the ground for many of the bullets and never came in contact with any officer. The family lawyer is saying he was shot while walking away and it's been confirmed he was shot in the back. The family was paid $5Million as part of a settlement. The video will be out today so we'll see.

@Johnnypenso do you know if the Police Department made a statement regarding this incident when it occurred?

Not sure, I haven't had time to look into it beyond the link. The mayor isn't happy:

Mayor Rahm Emanuel's office issued a statement Thursday afternoon criticizing the officer.

"Police officers are entrusted to uphold the law, and to provide safety to our residents. In this case unfortunately, it appears an officer violated that trust at every level."

 

[Swagger897]

The video will be out today so we'll see.

I thought they said Wednesday?

 

[Johnnypenso]

I thought they said Wednesday?

Correct. My mistake

 

[Parker]

I think that's bollocks, actually, if he's down he's down. If he gets back up then shoot.

I disagree, especially when someone is high on something like PCP. If the suspect is on the ground and still actively reaching for a weapon like a knife or firearm, he most certainly is not "down" and still has the potential to seriously injure or kill officers or innocent civilians. However if he is on the ground and there is a weapon next to him that he is not reaching for then yes, he is down.

I think many people underestimate the damage that a knife can do. Personally, I think a knife is even more dangerous than a gun in a close quarters situation. I know I definitely don't want to run in and try to cuff a guy high on PCP while he is still trying to get a hold of his knife.

Again though, I'm speaking in general and not specifically about this case since I'm unaware of the facts.

 

[TenEightyOne]

reaching for a weapon like a knife or firearm, he most certainly is not "down" and still has the potential to seriously injure or kill officers or innocent civilians. However if he is on the ground and there is a weapon next to him that he is not reaching for then yes, he is down.

I think many people underestimate the damage that a knife can do. Personally, I think a knife is even more dangerous than a gun in a close quarters situation. I know I definitely don't want to run in and try to cuff a guy high on PCP while he is still trying to get a hold of his knife.

I had my right hand almost completely severed by a knife, please don't think I underestimate them. A knife is not like a firearm when the suspect is on the ground. If the suspect continued to reach for a gun then the scenario is completely different.

I don't doubt your experience or knowledge but I think you'd have a hard time convincing many people that continuing to use a gun on a grounded suspect is, literally, overkill.

 

[Dennisch]

Ahmed the 'clock' builder wants apologies. And $15 million.

Ridiculous. But he most likely will receive the money.

 

[DK]

I wouldn't be surprised if the lawyers making his case thought this was a great way to build their reputation.

 

[Dennisch]

They say it's because his name has been severely tarnished.
I think as soon as this case starts the lawyers on the other side will start to dig up some more dirt on the Muhammad family.

 

[Parker]

I had my right hand almost completely severed by a knife, please don't think I underestimate them. A knife is not like a firearm when the suspect is on the ground. If the suspect continued to reach for a gun then the scenario is completely different.

I don't doubt your experience or knowledge but I think you'd have a hard time convincing many people that continuing to use a gun on a grounded suspect is, literally, overkill.

That is very possible, people with very little experience can be fairly hardheaded even when confronted with facts. I've had a hell of a time explaining the my car and truck don't have spark plugs because they're diesels, people want to believe what they want to believe most of the time.

When I was in the academy we watched many a video of Officers being murdered by both guns and knives, and quite a few of them were when the suspect was on the ground. One video in particular showed a man who was high on PCP (if I recall correctly) being shot by several Officers and still advancing towards them. In the end it took over 40 shots to finally stop the man, with the final shot being a shotgun slug to the head. Gruesome stuff for sure but it definitely reinforces the fact that just because someone is on the ground does not mean they are no longer a threat and if they can get back up with a weapon in their hand you're most likely either going to get hurt very badly or you're dead.

Something that I think is worth noting is generally someone who will attack a Police Officer is not in their right mind. Either altered by a substance or just plain crazy and as such you can't expect them to respond like most other people would think. I fully understand how bad it looks on camera to shoot someone while they are on the ground but most people don't understand just how dangerous someone can still be in that position.

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/us/minneapolis-jamar-clark-police-shooting/index.html

Five people were wounded when gunfire erupted near a Minneapolis police precinct where demonstrators have been protesting the shooting death of Jamar Clark, police said.

All were hospitalized late Monday night with non-life threatening injuries. Police are searching for three white males suspects.

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

Looks to me, according to these fine, upstanding citizens, who appear to be eyewitnesses, it could be a case of self defense.

 

[Dotini]

I see four broad themes that are currently roiling US politics in both parties:
- the economy, including corruption, income inequality, underemployment and immigration
- terrorism/national security, also embracing aspects of immigration
- gun control
- climate change

 

[Parker]

The Chicago Officer who shot Laquan McDonald has been charged with first degree murder.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/us/laquan-mcdonald-chicago-shooting-video/index.html

It will be interesting to see the facts in this case. Unfortunately in my experience many "witnesses" are completely untrustworthy, especially when it becomes a racial issue like this has.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The Chicago Officer who shot Laquan McDonald has been charged with first degree murder.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/us/laquan-mcdonald-chicago-shooting-video/index.html

It will be interesting to see the facts in this case. Unfortunately in my experience many "witnesses" are completely untrustworthy, especially when it becomes a racial issue like this has.

Let's wait and see if there's genuine suggestion of a racial subtext outside the normal hyperbole. It seems that the primary witness against the officer is primary video footage of his actions rather than secondary testimony.

 

[DK]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/us/minneapolis-jamar-clark-police-shooting/index.html

I wonder if Donald Trump will say these 5 deserved to get shot.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I wonder if Donald Trump will say these 5 deserved to get shot.

If the witnesses are anything to go by, it's possible the shooters were being chased by a mob of angry people after being beaten and were in fear for their lives. That would make the shooting justified IMO.

 

[Parker]

Let's wait and see if there's genuine suggestion of a racial subtext outside the normal hyperbole. It seems that the primary witness against the officer is primary video footage of his actions rather than secondary testimony.

I genuinely hope that race is never brought up in the trial (unless of course there is solid proof of this Officer being racist) and everything is handled the way it is supposed to.

If what witnesses state is true and he killed McDonald when he was no longer a threat he needs to go to prison for a long, long time. If it turns out that he killed McDonald in cold blood (while he was handcuffed, for example) he needs to be fried. Officers like that make us all look terrible and do nothing but increase the tension that already exists between us.

On the flip side, if the evidence presented leads to the Officer involved being cleared of all charges, I hope we don't get another Ferguson. From many statements I've read from various sources, it seems many people won't be happy unless he is convicted, they are already convinced he is guilty.

I hope justice is served and the community as a whole learns from this experience.

 

[Johnnypenso]

CNN says that officer Jason Van Dyke is charged with first degree murder.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/us/laquan-mcdonald-chicago-shooting-video/index.html

The video has been released. It's up on Liveleak now but I won't link to it.

 

[DK]

An email chain exchanged by the three men prior to their shooting at #BlackLivesMatter protesters has been leaked, and it's not pretty. The shooters described their planned attack as a "chimpout", and communicated through that cesspit of hate that is 4chan's /pol/ board.

 

[Johnnypenso]

An email chain exchanged by the three men prior to their shooting at #BlackLivesMatter protesters has been leaked, and it's not pretty. The shooters described their planned attack as a "chimpout", and communicated through that cesspit of hate that is 4chan's /pol/ board.

It's going to be very interesting to see how this case turns out. With the limited information available at this point, it seems they could be guilty of conspiracy while at the same time not guilty of the actual shootings because they were beaten and then chased by a mob.

 

[McLaren]

Ahmed the 'clock' builder wants apologies. And $15 million.

Ridiculous. But he most likely will receive the money.

Doesn't deserve a cent. All these idiots who invited him to meet the President & NASA when he was exposed as a fraud and didn't engineer anything. Those visits should be payment enough.

As for the dirt you alluded to, I believe they had found evidence of his sister making threats to her school but the media didn't peep a word about her, or the fact during his interviews, that he seemed to be fed answers from his parents.