America - The Official Thread

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Danoff
http://www.salon.com/2017/05/25/gop...an-hackers-to-hurt-hillary-clinton-democrats/

GOP strategist told Russian hacker to go ahead and release hacked information on Hillary during the election and then used that information to better run the campaign. I don't know if this changes anything for anyone, it doesn't for me. But I find it interesting that there was even that much collaboration.
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At this point nothing really surprises me and if it's true, it probably should be investigated since none of that sounds legal or ethical, especially if Trump was in on it. The GOP strategist could have been acting alone or it could just be something that is an inflated rumor.
 
Johnnypenso
In the interests of sharing the whole truth, he actually went on a rant against various ethnicities and religions and his focus on the two women in question was part of a "larger, unfocused rant and erratic behavior."
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And the people it was principally targeted at were?

Not that it being part of a wider rant that lead to the death of two people really changes anything.
 
Scaff
And the people it was principally targeted at were?

Not that it being part of a wider rant that lead to the death of two people really changes anything.
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Your original post pointed towards it being a Muslim bashing incident. The link you provided claims that it was a much broader rant than that. As I said, just pointing out the broader truth.
 
Johnnypenso
Your original post pointed towards it being a Muslim bashing incident. The link you provided claims that it was a much broader rant than that. As I said, just pointing out the broader truth.
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It was an attack on two Muslims, as such I stand by that point. That it was part of a broader rambling doesn't change the focus of the attack.

Not that I really see what your point about 'broader truth' is?

Are you suggesting that it being described as rambling and incoherent puts a different light on a known neo Nazi launching a verbal attack on two Muslims and then killing two people who tried to get him to stop?

http://www.wweek.com/news/2017/05/2...cial-slurs-at-a-free-speech-rally-last-month/
 
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Scaff
It was an attack on two Muslims, as such I stand by that point. That it was part of a broader rambling doesn't change the focus of the attack.

Not that I really see what your point about 'broader truth' is?

Are you suggesting that it being described as rambling and incoherent puts a different light on a known neo Nazi launching a verbal attack on two Muslims and then killing two people who tried to get him to stop?

http://www.wweek.com/news/2017/05/2...cial-slurs-at-a-free-speech-rally-last-month/
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"Man Attacks Two Muslims" is not the same story as "Man Hates Everyone Who Isn't Aryan, Verbally Assaults Several People Who Aryan, The Last of Which Were Muslim (allegedly)".

One gives the impression that a certain group was targeted when he was already ranting and raving before the members of that group even got on the bus.
 
Johnnypenso
"Man Attacks Two Muslims" is not the same story as "Man Hates Everyone Who Isn't Aryan, Verbally Assaults Several People Who Aryan, The Last of Which Were Muslim (allegedly)".

One gives the impression that a certain group was targeted when he was already ranting and raving before the members of that group even got on the bus.
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Interesting, do you happen to have a source for that, as all the original reports indicate that they were the principal focus of his verbal attack.

Still not sure however how it changes anything.
 
Scaff
Interesting, do you happen to have a source for that, as all the original reports indicate that they were the principal focus of his verbal attack.

Still not sure however how it changes anything.
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Yes, I got that from the link you provided and everything I've read about the incident so far confirms that is the case. I put it in quotes in my original response it's right up there ^^. Also, in the interests of the broader truth, one of the two girls was African American as her mother came forward in the last few hours. The exact racial/cultural makeup of the other victim is yet unconfirmed.
 
Johnnypenso
Yes, I got that from the link you provided and everything I've read about the incident so far confirms that is the case. I put it in quotes in my original response it's right up there ^^. Also, in the interests of the broader truth, one of the two girls was African American as her mother came forward in the last few hours. The exact racial/cultural makeup of the other victim is yet unconfirmed.
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The link I provided certainly doesn't seem to suggest that he was ranting and raving before they got on the train, and it also seems quite clear that they were the main focus of his ire.

That one was African American again makes no difference (and a link for that would be great), at all. Last time I checked it's quite possible for African Americans to also be Muslim.

I'm not entirely sure what this broader truth is at all, apart from being the second thread in which you have used it to seemingly distract from the fact an attack was carried out and rather focus on distracting detail that don't change how wrong the event was in the first place.

It's akin to arguing the toss about the ethnic makeup of the victims of the Manchester, or any terrorist attack for that matter.
 
Scaff
The link I provided certainly doesn't seem to suggest that he was ranting and raving before they got on the train, and it also seems quite clear that they were the main focus of his ire.

That one was African American again makes no difference (and a link for that would be great), at all. Last time I checked it's quite possible for African Americans to also be Muslim.

I'm not entirely sure what this broader truth is at all, apart from being the second thread in which you have used it to seemingly distract from the fact an attack was carried out and rather focus on distracting detail that don't change how wrong the event was in the first place.

It's akin to arguing the toss about the ethnic makeup of the victims of the Manchester, or any terrorist attack for that matter.
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Johnnypenso
In the interests of sharing the whole truth, he actually went on a rant against various ethnicities and religions and his focus on the two women in question was part of a "larger, unfocused rant and erratic behavior."
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Given that her mother was interviewed and made no mention of her daughter being Islamic, I'd say the odds are she isn't:
Dyjuana Hudson, a mother of one of the girls, told The Oregonian/OregonLive that the man began a racial tirade as soon as he spotted the girls. Her daughter is African-American and was with a friend who was wearing a hijab, she said.
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The devil is in the distracting details to coin a phrase. Was it a targeted attack on Muslims? Was it a white racist ranted and raved about many different ethnicities and religions who targeted the next visible minorities to enter the train who happened to be an African American and a Muslim girl? In this era of faked and massaged news, inaccurate and clickbait headlines, I think the broader truth is important.
 
Johnnypenso
Given that her mother was interviewed and made no mention of her daughter being Islamic, I'd say the odds are she isn't:


The devil is in the distracting details to coin a phrase. Was it a targeted attack on Muslims? Was it a white racist ranted and raved about many different ethnicities and religions who targeted the next visible minorities to enter the train who happened to be an African American and a Muslim girl? In this era of faked and massaged news, inaccurate and clickbait headlines, I think the broader truth is important.
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For someone interested in the broader truth the ommision of this from your source is bloody odd.

"Two teenage girls boarded a MAX train in downtown heading to Northeast Portland early Friday evening when a man got on at a later stop and immediately launched into a racial tirade as soon as they caught his eye.

"He was saying that Muslims should die," said Dyjuana Hudson, a mother of one of the girls. "That they've been killing Christians for years."

Seems to be a rather heavy focus on a specific religion in that.

Two girls, one of whom is clearly Muslim get on and that kicks him off. Now unless you are suggesting that he stopped to clarify the religion of the other before saying Muslims should die, I find your broader truth to be a far way wide of the mark. Particularly given that you must have read this and chosen to not both citing it in your post.
 
Scaff
For someone interested in the broader truth the ommision of this from your source is bloody odd.

"Two teenage girls boarded a MAX train in downtown heading to Northeast Portland early Friday evening when a man got on at a later stop and immediately launched into a racial tirade as soon as they caught his eye.

"He was saying that Muslims should die," said Dyjuana Hudson, a mother of one of the girls. "That they've been killing Christians for years."

Seems to be a rather heavy focus on a specific religion in that.

Two girls, one of whom is clearly Muslim get on and that kicks him off. Now unless you are suggesting that he stopped to clarify the religion of the other before saying Muslims should die, I find your broader truth to be a far way wide of the mark. Particularly given that you must have read this and chosen to not both citing it in your post.
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And yet your original link has the Chief of Police saying:
Simpson said that screed [the verbal abuse of the two young girls] was part of a larger, unfocused rant and erratic behavior.
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The Portland Police Bureau also released a statement saying the perpetrator was:
"yelling various remarks that would best be characterized as hate speech toward a variety of ethnicities and religions."
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In this era of faked and massaged news, inaccurate and clickbait headlines, I think the broader truth is as elusive as it is important. You, for example, appear to be willing to ignore the official statements of the Police Department in support of your narrative. I'm sure the story will continue to develop and eventually, through a compendum of sources, we may get to the broader truth. Do try to keep an open mind.
 
Johnnypenso
And yet your original link has the Chief of Police saying:

The Portland Police Bureau also released a statement saying the perpetrator was:

In this era of faked and massaged news, inaccurate and clickbait headlines, I think the broader truth is as elusive as it is important. You, for example, appear to be willing to ignore the official statements of the Police Department in support of your narrative. I'm sure the story will continue to develop and eventually, through a compendum of sources, we may get to the broader truth. Do try to keep an open mind.
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At what point have I ignored his wider racist rants?

Odd because I seem to recall I posted a link to his entire history of them, you would think if I wanted to avoid such a thing I wouldn't have done that.

I said, and your source supports this, that his focus was on the religion (or presumed religion) of the two girls. The defence of whom the two victims came to.

That he may have broadened his tirade doesn't change what seems to have been the trigger point of the religion of the two (or presumed religion).

You seem to be going a rather long way out of you way to try and suggest that the religion (or presumed religion) of the two wasn't at the very least the trigger and or causal factor in this.

Which to be blunt is bloody odd.

On a side note, how would you categorise thing attack and the attacker?
 
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Johnnypenso
In this era of faked and massaged news, inaccurate and clickbait headlines, I think the broader truth is as elusive as it is important. You, for example, appear to be willing to ignore the official statements of the Police Department in support of your narrative. I'm sure the story will continue to develop and eventually, through a compendum of sources, we may get to the broader truth. Do try to keep an open mind.
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You seem to be misrepresenting (or ignoring) the timeline given by the PD. The perp ranted in general (as you say) for some time until the two girls came to his attention. He then directed his tirade at them very specifically and we know the tragic (if heroic) outcome.

I can't tell what you're thinking but it seems to me that you're trying to dilute the perp's verbal actions by confusing the period before he'd seen the girls boarded with the period after he'd seen the girls. Nothing you're saying is strictly untrue but it seems deliberately omissive. However, it seems irrelevant whether he was shouting about cricket scores, laughing about the previous SNL or doing a crossword - he did what he did when he did it.
 
Touring Mars
Is it just me, or do you get the feeling that Trump just says whatever the people he is talking to want to hear? At least the Pope had the courtesy not to burst out laughing when Trump said he wishes to 'pursue peace', four days after signing a $110 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia.
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You mean being a politician to become the ultimate politician...yeah exactly, I'm pretty sure you were aware of this as well in the election thread from time to time. I think what catches most of us is that so many believed he was the outsider and not status quo Washington. Looking over how many political events he's been to through the years and donated and helped push, I guess hindsight really is 20/20

Dotini
Agreed. We should not support the welfare states of freeloaders like France, Italy, Germany, Italy and Canada.
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What? You do realize these groups (especially Canada as well as France and Germany) aren't freeloaders? For many of reasons given above, but also for simply being fit to do operations the U.S. can do on their own with the same degree of success? The only thing the U.S. provides is strength in numbers in the sheer amount of military hardware we posses compared to others. And the only reason we're able to do that is via slicing a large bit of the pie in favor of the military industrial system in respect to national spending. Especially with the black budget for the last 30 so years.

But as far as NATO task force and missions go, especially in regards to counter terrorism any of the main power houses could get it done. The spending done by the U.S. under the many many admins over the last few decades is to remain the most technological and superior, I guess for the alien invaders or future people eh?
 
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Omnis
Sure thing, Ange. Why don't we just pack up our military from her country and bring all that money home.
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Go ahead. Why not? If you think the money is better spent in the US then surely that's to your benefit.

Or is it possible that there are some benefits to the US to have a presence in Germany as well?
 
What a joyous day when a neoconservative warhawk like McCain strikes out against his own party's rule of the executive branch. I'd say I was impressed but he didn't like Obama nor likes Trump so what is the middle ground, surely not him...
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
What a joyous day when a neoconservative warhawk like McCain strikes out against his own party's rule of the executive branch.
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Oliver Stone isn't particularly impressed with Trump, either:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-29/oliver-stone-says-vladimir-putin-is-misunderstood/8569020

I should add that I have never been much of a fan of Stone. I always found his films a little self-indulgent.

LMSCorvetteGT2
I'd say I was impressed but he didn't like Obama nor likes Trump so what is the middle ground, surely not him...
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I expect that his idea of a middle ground would be a centrist candidate. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Arnold Schwarzenegger was fairly well-regarded as a governor because he didn't dogmatically follow party doctrine; he was willing to work with both sides to get things done rather. Even if that wasn't true of Schwarzenegger, I imagine that its the sort of thing that McCain yearns for.

Chrunch Houston
What a child.
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Oh, and Trump's alpha dog jerk-clench-and-shake is the height of maturity? Macron obviously wanted to send a message to Trump - that he expects and intends to be taken seriously; he's not going to roll over because it suits Trump. If Trump is acting in American interests first, then Macron is acting in France's interests first. You'd be raising hell if Trump bowed to Macron's interests, so why do you expect Macron to let Trump walk over him.

Don't forget that the French invented the modern idea of democracy.
 
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