America - The Official Thread

[TenEightyOne]

Something tells me Donald won't be tuning into Fox for a while.

Fake news, he'd said the right thing within days of being reminded that he should.

 

[Joey D]

I can't believe Trump actually wants to blame whatever the "alt-left" is for the violence in Virginia. As far as I could tell they weren't the ones who showed up pretending they were operators with full military gear. Also they weren't the ones who used a car as a deadly weapon.

I agree, some folks on the other side did some questionable things, but I'd wager a majority of them were there protesting Neo-Nazis because well, they're Neo-Nazis.

I've tried to give Trump the benefit of the doubt in many instances, but the way he's handling this crisis along with how he's botched North Korea means I'm done thinking he's at least attempting to do something good.

 

[sumbrownkid]

You know, Trump is an amazing man, in that he always proves me wrong when I think "This person cannot possibly go any lower than what he is right now".

 

[McLaren]

I can't believe Trump actually wants to blame whatever the "alt-left" is for the violence in Virginia.

He's not; he's asking why they aren't being blamed as well seeing as he blames both for their actions.

The term “alt-right” has been used to describe various strains of extreme conservatism, including both white nationalists and others who back Trump’s populist and nationalist agenda. White supremacist Richard Spencer initially coined the phrase.

Without allowing an answer to his alt-right question, Trump then suggested the “alt-left” was also to blame for the violence in Charlottesville.

Trump began his answer: “What about the alt-left that came charging at —” but was cut off by the reporter. “Excuse me what about the alt-left that came charging at the, as you say, the alt-right? Do they have any semblance of guilt?”

As Trump noted, some of Saturday’s violence was perpetrated by members of “antifa,” or antifascist, groups attacking the white nationalists. The term “alt-left” has been coined by some conservative commentators to suggest an equivalence with the alt-right.

“Let me ask you this, what about the fact they came charging? That they came charging with clubs in their hands, swinging clubs. Do they have any problem? I think they do,” Trump said.

After his comments, Trump was pressed by multiple reporters about whether he was claiming the “alt-left” is just as abhorrent as neo-Nazis. He suggested there was violence on both sides and the media was ignoring the aggressive actions of some leftist counterprotesters.

“You had a group on one side that was bad and you had a group on the other side that was also very violent,” said Trump. “Nobody wants to say that, but I’ll say it.”

Trump did try to argue that the white nationalists had a permit to protest and the counter-protests did not & were not supposed to be there, but that can argued as semantics.

But, the media is focused on asking him if he thinks the folks like Antifa is as bad as Neo-Nazis because it allows them to run the headlines that Trump says the Left are like Nazis and nothing screams ratings like that.

In reality, Antifa is very much a problem as white nationalists. They only show up to confront far-right supporters b/c they don't believe they should have a voice, and have been criticized by others for being too focused on Trump or Neo-Nazis instead of actually trying to solve racial issues.

Crow said members use violence as a means of self-defense and they believe property destruction does not equate to violence.

"There is a place for violence. Is that the world that we want to live in? No. Is it the world we want to inhabit? No. Is it the world we want to create? No. But will we push back? Yes," Crow said.

But Crow said the philosophy of Antifa is based on the idea of direct action. "The idea in Antifa is that we go where they (right-wingers) go. That hate speech is not free speech. That if you are endangering people with what you say and the actions that are behind them, then you do not have the right to do that.

"And so we go to cause conflict, to shut them down where they are, because we don't believe that Nazis or fascists of any stripe should have a mouthpiece."

Washington Post reporter Joe Heim: “Counter-protesters fought back, also swinging sticks, punching and spraying chemicals. Others threw balloons filled with paint or ink at the white nationalists. Everywhere, it seemed violence was exploding. The police did not move to break up the fights.”

Redneck Revolt, an armed leftist group that brought rifles to Justice Park, one of the spots where anti-racist groups had gathered: “At many points during the day, groups of white supremacists approached Justice Park, but at each instance, Redneck Revolt members formed a unified skirmish line against them, and the white supremacists backed down. Most of the groups were not easily identified, but at separate points, contingents from Identity Evropa and the Proud Boys were recognized. The groups that threatened the park yelled racial and homophobic slurs.”

University of Virginia student Isabella Ciambotti: “I was on Market Street around 11:30 a.m. when a counter-protester ripped a newspaper stand off the sidewalk and threw it at alt-right protesters. I saw another man from the white supremacist crowd being chased and beaten. People were hitting him with their signs. A much older man, also with the alt-right group, got pushed to the ground in the commotion. Someone raised a stick over his head and beat the man with it, and that’s when I screamed and ran over with several other strangers to help him to his feet.”

The Alt-Left is typically Antifa btw, which have their own history of violent protests and were in Charlottesville.

As far as I could tell they weren't the ones who showed up pretending they were operators with full military gear.

No, they just show up dressed in all black with sticks & projectiles, and destroy property.

Also they weren't the ones who used a car as a deadly weapon.

They had begun to leave when that happened according to eye witnesses.

Los Angeles Times account of the car attack by special correspondent Robert Armengol in Charlottesville: By early afternoon, hundreds of counter-protesters had amassed two blocks south of Emancipation Park, in downtown Charlottesville. They began marching down the middle of Water Street, near the city’s pedestrian mall. The white nationalists, for the time being, seemed to have dispersed. Some of the armed militia members had just driven away in vans and pickup trucks.

The crowd was jubilant. Demonstrators waved flags calling for solidarity and they chanted anti-racist slogans, declaring, “Whose streets? Our streets!” and “Black lives matter!” They hooted, played on drums and blew horns. One man dressed in a clown suit with rainbow-colored suspenders held aloft a poster that read, simply, “SHAME.”

A police helicopter flew overhead in the clear sky. It was about 2 p.m.

At East Fourth Street, the crowd veered left and headed back toward the Main Street mall, up a slight incline on a narrow one-lane road, flanked on either side by commercial buildings. The front of the march had advanced less than half a block before a gray sports car appeared, moving south toward the demonstrators.

The car and its driver, hidden behind tinted windows, advanced slowly at first. [Police have since identified the driver as James A. Fields, 20, of Ohio, who was previously seen marching with Vanguard America, a fascist group.] Then, just a few feet in front of protesters, the vehicle accelerated suddenly, plowing into at least a dozen people in a gut-wrenching crash, sending bodies, shoes and personal belongings flying through the air.

I agree, some folks on the other side did some questionable things, but I'd wager a majority of them were there protesting Neo-Nazis because well, they're Neo-Nazis.

And that excuses their side from what exactly? They still committed much of the violence that's getting pinned solely on white nationalists.

 

[homeforsummer]

That tweet was only accurate in the fact she made it before Trump. It doesn't change her message: "Trump doesn't condemn the group therefore he supports them".

I still don't see that particular tweet as being unfair. Trump uses Twitter almost constantly and predominantly to comment on pretty trivial things (TV shows, people he dislikes), but wasn't particularly quick off the mark on quite a significant event.

Now when he did actually tweet, unlike some I didn't actually mind his response. It pretty much got the message across. I do wonder if those were actually his words, given the tweets were actually quite eloquent, but the message was pretty good. He probably could have done with calling out white supremacy specifically given the turn of events too, but you take what you can get when Trump tweets.

You're focused on pointing out I was wrong about who posted first rather my point that she manipulates what she posts to make her political statement. If I took an exert from a review of yours and only showcased your dislikes with the added statement, "H4S believes this car is awful & should not be reviewing cars", have I not falsely attacked your career for no reason than I may not like you?

I've already agreed with you that Rowling takes some of her posts a little too far. I disagree that particular post went too far, though in context of her other anti-Trump tweets I can understand it being frustrating.

However, I'm not really concerned about the content of the tweet and I'm not actually that bothered that you didn't notice the actual times of Rowling and Trump's tweets. The reason I expanded upon it was because we're having a discussion about accuracy of reporting in the media and it made for a neat example of how misinterpreting something can change its meaning.

In the review scenario I'd expect someone dig deeper to see whether that was the actual position I held, just as I'd expect someone to double-check a story in the media or double-check that photo that always pops up on Facebook showing how air travel used to look in the 1960s (spoiler alert: it's a mock-up).

Except they don't. That's the point you've missed. The media did not attack BLM when it was in the spotlight. The media at one point, edited their frustration from an angry woman telling people to burn down other neighborhoods to an upset relative distraught over a death.

This one sad incident has painted white nationalists as terrorists (due how the attack should be viewed), and shouldn't be allowed to voice any opinion. Last year, multiple BLM protests with destroyed property and people shown saying to kill cops and telling white people you can't cross here, and it was rarely ever met with the same descriptions by the media beyond a report about petition to label BLM a terrorist group.

Two equally awful sides reacted to by the media differently.

Not something I condone at all, and I'm particularly not keen on people having their opinions shot down before they're made - but however the media react in a particular scenario, I think we're probably in agreement that white supremacism is a bad thing and it's not a bad thing that the media is highlighting that right now. I'd prefer equally bad events were dealt with in equal weight, but I'd also prefer a 50% hit rate than neither event being treated as important.

Personally, as I said originally several posts ago, the worst thing is that this turn of events didn't need to happen in the first place. Whatever iffy individuals were responsible for the violence, they'd probably not have exited their front door had Charlottesville not wanted to remove the statue of General Lee. He's probably not a great figurehead in the modern day, but nor should he be removed from history for his deeds.

And who says he isn't trying be saying both sides have good and bad people? Ah but see people now draw the conclusion, "Trump said Neo Nazis have good people. He supports them!"

To be honest it's difficult to tell what he supports or doesn't, given he denounced white supremacism officially two days after the event and then added a caveat shortly after that.

The people who lap up the medias every word are sheep, regardless of Fox or CNN.

MSM=Mainstream Media. Not sure how that's derogatory.

I'm aware what MSM stands for. I'm also aware that both terms are used almost exclusively by partisan groups to vilify any group or any media the reader doesn't agree with, regardless how accurate those groups or media might actually be on a story. Conversations on GTP - where we're generally able to discuss things as informed adults - would be better without such terms.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Why would such terms as MSM be better without? Because your association with said term, that you personally view @homeforsummer ? I'm not partial to any group and I agree that the MSM is the problem many times. Especially when media groups have or seem to have a default bias to a political, social talking point. I find it just as critical to the conversation, and I too am confused as to how it is a derogatory term, rather than a five cent casual phrase to describe the overall media landscape especially in the States.

I acknowledge you say "almost exclusively by partisan groups", but I feel the shoe is easily on the other foot, from those I've seen that denounce the term. I don't see them as some arbiter of intellectual truth or respect, but rather just as partisan as those they claim, because it is being used against a person of the media or media group they side with. Now I can't say this is your angle, nor am I. Simply just trying to understand this discourse about MSM.

 

[novcze]

The Alt-Left is typically Antifa btw, which have their own history of violent protests and were in Charlottesville.

Not only in the USA but almost everywhere, recent G20 summit in Hamburg is good example. They are bigger problem than silly neo-nazis.

 

[Joey D]

He's not; he's asking why they aren't being blamed as well seeing as he blames both for their actions.

I watched his press conference and that's not what I took away from it. To me, it really did sound like he was trying to place the blame on the left while ignoring the right. Granted I don't think Trump is a Neo-Nazi, but I think his ridiculous rhetoric and poor handling of the situation could leave some to believe that he is.

In reality, Antifa is very much a problem as white nationalists. They only show up to confront far-right supporters b/c they don't believe they should have a voice, and have been criticized by others for being too focused on Trump or Neo-Nazis instead of actually trying to solve racial issues.

I can agree with that. I've been critical of the BLM protests in the past because I don't think they do any good. I don't know enough about Antifa to say if it's in the same category, but it probably fits in with the thought that any extreme thought is dangerous.

And that excuses their side from what exactly? They still committed much of the violence that's getting pinned solely on white nationalists.

It doesn't excuse them from anything. I'm still guessing that a majority counter protesters weren't there to cause violence, even though a group of them did. Neo-Nazi's are violent people no matter what because they're a hate group.

I agree both sides are at fault, but after watching videos of the protest I still personally feel that the white supremacists are more at fault.

 

[Necroternal]

To those defending Trump, what happens if the nazis come to your town and you DON'T oppose them? What side of history do allied veterans stand on according to the POTUS? Are they just as much to blame as Hitler? Ask yourself what you DO stand for. I'm don't like antifa or any other left wing radical group but do they have to be the only ones standing up to NAZIS.....???

 

[photonrider]

To those defending Trump, what happens if the nazis come to your town and you DON'T oppose them? What side of history do allied veterans stand on according to the POTUS? Are they just as much to blame as Hitler? Ask yourself what you DO stand for. I'm don't like antifa or any other left wing radical group but do they have to be the only ones standing up to NAZIS.....???

Assumptive and rhetorical.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Assumptive and rhetorical.

Absolutely.

So... what happens if the nazis come to your town and you DON'T oppose them?

 

[Dennisch]

To those defending Trump, what happens if the nazis come to your town and you DON'T oppose them? What side of history do allied veterans stand on according to the POTUS? Are they just as much to blame as Hitler? Ask yourself what you DO stand for. I'm don't like antifa or any other left wing radical group but do they have to be the only ones standing up to NAZIS.....???

I would bring my camera and take pictures of people going berserk. Left and right.

 

[ryzno]

Not everyone on the right out there a white nationalist or Neo Nazi.
Just like not everyone on the left out there was peaceful.
I agree with Trump both sides are at fault.
Of course if you listen to the MSM only the left is justified.
BS they went there with no permit to counter protest and start crap.
As far as the monuments, they should be left alone.
The left knows they are going to piss people off removing them.

As I always say, open your eyes and stop being sheep. They want us to kill each other and the best way to start is removing history.

Should we remove the pyramids cause thousands of slaves died building them?
Where is the limit?

 

[Kurei]

I would bring my camera and take pictures of people going berserk. Left and right.

This. Honestly, I live in a great neighborhood, in a nice town, and have no concerns of such even potentially happening. (Not to mention neighboring NRA members)

You want to daydream about party A affecting place B or w/e, go back to /pol/.

Edit* This isn't at @Dennisch, just want to make that clear. Just quoting his response as it'd more or less be similar to mine.

 

[McLaren]

To be honest it's difficult to tell what he supports or doesn't, given he denounced white supremacism officially two days after the event and then added a caveat shortly after that.

I'm aware what MSM stands for. I'm also aware that both terms are used almost exclusively by partisan groups to vilify any group or any media the reader doesn't agree with, regardless how accurate those groups or media might actually be on a story. Conversations on GTP - where we're generally able to discuss things as informed adults - would be better without such terms.

I'll concede to the majority of your post bc I think we'd be repeating ourselves if we kept going and I think we're mostly on the same page.

However, I do want to reiterate that he did denounce them once before to be fair to him.

I also did not intend to use MSM as a derogatory term. I'm replying on my phone so it's easier to shorten it & still get the message across, like MS for Microsoft. I will apologize for the sheep comment, though.

I watched his press conference and that's not what I took away from it. To me, it really did sound like he was trying to place the blame on the left while ignoring the right. Granted I don't think Trump is a Neo-Nazi, but I think his ridiculous rhetoric and poor handling of the situation could leave some to believe that he is.

I will agree on that on the basis I believe that's the root on most of his addresses; he's vocabulary makes Bush look spectacular.

It doesn't excuse them from anything. I'm still guessing that a majority counter protesters weren't there to cause violence, even though a group of them did. Neo-Nazi's are violent people no matter what because they're a hate group.

I agree both sides are at fault, but after watching videos of the protest I still personally feel that the white supremacists are more at fault.

I won't argue that they aren't violent but in the wake of this event, it's hard for me to place more blame on them just bc one of them ran people down; I don't think that was ever an intention of the group, but more so the emotional reaction of a young member. I will say it's despicable if any of them supported it afterwards.

To those defending Trump, what happens if the nazis come to your town and you DON'T oppose them? What side of history do allied veterans stand on according to the POTUS? Are they just as much to blame as Hitler? Ask yourself what you DO stand for. I'm don't like antifa or any other left wing radical group but do they have to be the only ones standing up to NAZIS.....???

No offense, but this is the argument left-leaning celebrities like to use here and people in general, really don't like it.

Neo-Nazis are not an issue in the US. Groups like them and the KKK have had declining numbers in the past and most of those people keep their opinions to themselves bc they know the majority of Americans do not agree. Most know they'd probably get attacked anyway bc of their small numbers. When they rally together is when they're not afraid, but it's such a rare event to see them.

If an uprising where to start, I'm sure it would be stopped shortly after just due to the sheer number of opposition they'd face. Until then, they're still Americans in the eyes of the law and can voice their displeasure. Don't think for a minute that bc I'm not out there opposing them that I agree with them.

 

[Famine]

From what I understand of fascism, it's an ideology that seeks to use force to prevent the expression of opposing viewpoints (culminating in a total police state where opinion is not permitted and dissent is punishable by assault, imprisonment, and death).

If 'anti-fascists' seek to use force to prevent the expression of the viewpoint of fascists - particularly if they seek to use the force of law, by making the viewpoints illegal - are they not then fascists?


Saying that everyone should have the right to free expression unless they're saying things you don't like (which BLM did this week) is the first step towards fascism.

The irony of antifa.

 

[DK]

Not everyone on the right out there a white nationalist or Neo Nazi.
Just like not everyone on the left out there was peaceful.
I agree with Trump both sides are at fault.
Of course if you listen to the MSM only the left is justified.
BS they went there with no permit to counter protest and start crap.
As far as the monuments, they should be left alone.
The left knows they are going to piss people off removing them.

As I always say, open your eyes and stop being sheep. They want us to kill each other and the best way to start is removing history.

Should we remove the pyramids cause thousands of slaves died building them?
Where is the limit?

Only one side was chanting "🤬 you 🤬!" and "blood and soil!" Only one side ploughed full-throttle through a crowd of peaceful counter-protesters. Only one side dressed up in body armour and carried assault rifles. Only one side put up statues to mark out the border of gentrified, whites-only areas of their cities as the Jim Crow Laws tightened their grip on the South.

 

[Northstar]

Only one side was chanting "🤬 you 🤬!" and "blood and soil!" Only one side ploughed full-throttle through a crowd of peaceful counter-protesters. Only one side dressed up in body armour and carried assault rifles. Only one side put up statues to mark out the border of gentrified, whites-only areas of their cities as the Jim Crow Laws tightened their grip on the South.

Because there's totally no examples of left leaning protestors committing acts of violence on other occasions or anything.

Both extremes have a difficult time dealing with people having different opinions. Pretending otherwise helps nobody.

 

[DK]

Come back when it's some communist dick ploughing into crowds of peaceful counter-protesters, and there's moral equivocation BS going on.

 

[Danoff]

Come back when it's some communist dick ploughing...

Woah woah woah!!!

...into crowds of peaceful counter-protesters, and there's moral equivocation BS going on.

Ooooooohhhh. Carry on.

 

[DK]

Woah woah woah!!!

Sorry, I guess I forgot we still did "Phrasing!" here.

 

[Necroternal]

Assumptive and rhetorical.

Question(s) still stands.

Edit: Typo.

 

[McLaren]

Because there's totally no examples of left leaning protestors committing acts of violence on other occasions or anything.

Both extremes have a difficult time dealing with people having different opinions. Pretending otherwise helps nobody.

Ignore it. Its clearly an argument based on nothing but 1 detail.

Antifa has attacked, punched, & beaten those they don't like; 1 event ended in 10 stabbings. They destroy property whilst hurling molotovs and rocks at police. They silence anyone they don't like through "justified" violence. They recently beat a CBS photojournalist just for filming them.


But hey, at least they don't run people over....

 

[Carbonox]

But hey, at least they don't run people over....

They'd need to work for a living first, to afford a car in the first place. It's a bit too much to ask for when hurling rocks waits for no one.

 

[polysmut]

Neo-Nazis are not an issue in the US. Groups like them and the KKK have had declining numbers in the past and most of those people keep their opinions to themselves bc they know the majority of Americans do not agree. Most know they'd probably get attacked anyway bc of their small numbers. When they rally together is when they're not afraid, but it's such a rare event to see them.

People can only know that some people disagree with them if those who do disagree have pointed it out to them.

 

[McLaren]

People can only know that some people disagree with them if those who do disagree have pointed it out to them.

Most Americans do not agree with Neo-Nazi values; that's a pretty well known thing. Walking around with even just a swastika on something in the US is enough to bring trouble from all walks.

 

[Northstar]

Come back when it's some communist dick ploughing into crowds of peaceful counter-protesters, and there's moral equivocation BS going on.

So we're judging entire groups based on the actions of one scumball now?

 

[DK]

Because there's totally no examples of left leaning protestors committing acts of violence on other occasions or anything.

Both extremes have a difficult time dealing with people having different opinions. Pretending otherwise helps nobody.

I wasn't "pretending" otherwise. I am not a fan of an ideology which, if it succeeded in its goals, would view the local corner shop owner (or kulak, in a past iteration) just as worthy of execution as a private prison tycoon, so I'm no antifa apologist.

 

[PeterJB]

Most Americans do not agree with Neo-Nazi values; that's a pretty well known thing. Walking around with even just a swastika on something in the US is enough to bring trouble from all walks.

Plus life in the United States bears little to no resemblance to life in Nazi Germany.

This attempt by Trump to be Hitler is not going particularly well. 8th months into his Chancellery, Hitler had already dissolved all other rival political parties (and had many of their leaders executed), withdrawn from the League of Nations and the World Disarmament Conference, opened his first concentration camp, and barred Jews from civil service jobs and universities (resulting in several thousand Jews fleeing the country, including Anne Frank and Albert Einstein). Trump meanwhile has attempted to get several bills across with have been stopped by his political opponents (and some of his allies), withdrawn from the Trans-Pacific Partnership and the Paris Climate Agreement, banned trans people from serving in the military, and created an army of Hollywood liberals and SJWs threatening to flee to Canada (but not Mexico) and then conveniently not doing so, and then claiming this is the start of a dictatorship all the while being extremely vocal and public with their criticisms of the President and magically not ending up dead or mysteriously disappearing for doing so. He needs to step his game up.

 

[Northstar]

I wasn't "pretending" otherwise. I am not a fan of an ideology which, if it succeeded in its goals, would view the local corner shop owner (or kulak, in a past iteration) just as worthy of execution as a private prison tycoon, so I'm no antifa apologist.

Because groups like BLM totally don't call for the deaths of large groups of people.



And while they may or may not be linked to chants like the above, there has been a rise in ambush shootings of police officers in the states.

I'm no fan of neo-nazi's either, but again, pretending the opposite end of the spectrum is any better really helps nobody.