America - The Official Thread

[Joey D]

I suppose that depends on how strong your personal allegiance to the United States is.

Wasn't Lee, in pure militaristic terms, considered one of the most exceptional soldiers the US ever had before the Civil War?

Yes, he was a highly acclaimed soldier. However, I don't think that excuses the fact he fought for the side that broke away from the US and ultimately shot and killed our countryman. Same goes for someone like Benedict Arnold. We didn't put up any statues of him despite being one of the best soldiers during the war (although there is the "boot monument", but it makes no mention of Arnold anywhere on it).

I'm not super patriotic, but I don't think we should celebrate enemies of the US especially when those enemies fought for, among many reasons, the right to own slaves.

 

[homeforsummer]

Also, I wasn't even aware of what the protest was about, apparently it was over taking down a statue of General Lee. The man was a traitor and enemy of the United States, he shouldn't be honored even if he wasn't totally for slavery.

I've been wondering about this.

While I don't condone statues of figures like this, no more so than buildings or objects named after such figures (there are some in the UK too, with similar efforts to remove them), I'm quite uneasy with this concept of trying to erase parts of history (or things that represent that history) that people don't agree with, rather than using those things as an education as to why those past events should never and can never happen again.

Not to immediately invoke Godwin's Law, but Germany hasn't spent the last seven decades tearing down architecture put in place by the Nazis, even though some of that architecture - particularly things like the monument at Zeppelinfeld in Nuremberg - are indelibly linked with some terrible events. They're left in place as a reminder for the country and for the rest of the world that certain events happened and that they shouldn't be forgotten.

A celebratory statue of a prominent figure who supported slavery isn't particularly tasteful, but equally it's not actually harming anyone by being there. Surely it's better to keep it in place and use it as a tool to explain what happened in the past, so it becomes not a celebration of the man, but a reminder that humankind has done some terrible things that it shouldn't ever repeat.

And, y'know, less chance of bringing a bunch of white supremacist nutters out of the woodwork enraged at the statue being removed.

 

[Joey D]

I've been wandering about this.

While I don't condone statues of figures like this, no more so than buildings or objects named after such figures (there are some in the UK too, with similar efforts to remove them), I'm quite uneasy with this concept of trying to erase parts of history (or things that represent that history) that people don't agree with, rather than using those things as an education as to why those past events should never and can never happen again.

Not to immediately invoke Godwin's Law, but Germany hasn't spent the last seven decades tearing down architecture put in place by the Nazis, even though some of that architecture - particularly things like the monument at Zeppelinfeld in Nuremberg - are indelibly linked with some terrible events. They're left in place as a reminder for the country and for the rest of the world that certain events happened and that they shouldn't be forgotten.

A celebratory statue of a prominent figure who supported slavery isn't particularly tasteful, but equally it's not actually harming anyone by being there. Surely it's better to keep it in place and use it as a tool to explain what happened in the past, so it becomes not a celebration of the man, but a reminder that humankind has done some terrible things that it shouldn't ever repeat.

And, y'know, less chance of bringing a bunch of white supremacist nutters out of the woodwork enraged at the statue being removed.

That's a good point and I can accept that it is probably for the best.

 

[Mike Rotch]

While it's not right in any way to mow down a group of people with a car, protestors need to learn that they can't block traffic for their own safety. ....

That's what law enforcement is for (well, when they aren't shooting innocent women in their pjs ). The only excuse to use a car as a weapon is if they were trying to flip the car or drag the driver out to met out injury.

Appearing out of nowhere an targetting a crowd is attempted murder.

 

[Liquid]

And, y'know, less chance of bringing a bunch of white supremacist nutters out of the woodwork enraged at the statue being removed.

Whatever their reasons for showing themselves are, I think it's equally dangerous not knowing how many white supremacists there are knocking around.

 

[Mike Rotch]

3 dead now. Hopefully they have the chair in VN.

 

[Northstar]

I think it's equally dangerous not knowing how many white supremacists there are knocking around.

I don't see how that's dangerous considering if they're not a known white supremacist chances are they aren't going around causing havoc.

3 dead now. Hopefully they have the chair in VN.

Where have you seen 3? I've only seen 1 dead from the car and 2 from the helicopter that crashed.

Edit: Capital punishment is a thing in Virginia.

 

[Quakebass]

Also, I wasn't even aware of what the protest was about, apparently it was over taking down a statue of General Lee. The man was a traitor and enemy of the United States, he shouldn't be honored even if he wasn't totally for slavery.

I saw a livestream from a guy who was trying to get aerial coverage of all the protests and commotion and fill people in on everything going on around the city - while looking for a spot where he wouldn't get signal interference for his drone he got swept up in a large crowd of "counter-protesters" (I legitimately don't know what that means, but it's besides the point), and as he walked with them he ended up being right at the center of the incident. I've seen multiple angles now and it's looking like it was largely unprovoked, it looks to me like the guy in the challenger wasn't surrounded much at all and went out of his way to back up to get some extra velocity for his attack.

As far as what the protest was, it's a mess. You're right that it was (initially) a movement against the removal of Confederate monuments, but from what I've been able to discern basically very early on the initial protesters were joined by white supremacists and Neo Nazis, which then brought in the "counter-protests", which brought in Antifa and a few other groups. In the livestream I mentioned above the group of protesters that the streamer got swept up was being called "anti-racists" - I don't know if that was a generic name he was giving them or if that was the actual name of their movement, either way they were leftists, and there were at least five or six different groups clashing with one another all over the city. I didn't hear BLM mentioned in any of the videos or official stories but it wouldn't surprise me if they were there too.

I don't think any official information has been released on the guy in custody, but from what I gleaned from the videos it sounded like the guy who carried out the attack was one of the Nazis. From conversations you overhear in the videos it sounded like the guy was heckling the group shortly beforehand and then went to his car. It could've been though that people were assuming and projecting in the heat of the moment and a "fellow" leftist mistook them for right wingers - neither option is any less disgusting.

 

[05XR8]

James Alex Fields. 20yo.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I saw a livestream from a guy who was trying to get aerial coverage of all the protests and commotion and fill people in on everything going on around the city - while looking for a spot where he wouldn't get signal interference for his drone he got swept up in a large crowd of "counter-protesters" (I legitimately don't know what that means, but it's besides the point), and as he walked with them he ended up being right at the center of the incident. I've seen multiple angles now and it's looking like it was largely unprovoked, it looks to me like the guy in the challenger wasn't surrounded much at all and went out of his way to back up to get some extra velocity for his attack.

As far as what the protest was, it's a mess. You're right that it was (initially) a movement against the removal of Confederate monuments, but from what I've been able to discern basically very early on the initial protesters were joined by white supremacists and Neo Nazis, which then brought in the "counter-protests", which brought in Antifa and a few other groups. In the livestream I mentioned above the group of protesters that the streamer got swept up was being called "anti-racists" - I don't know if that was a generic name he was giving them or if that was the actual name of their movement, either way they were leftists, and there were at least five or six different groups clashing with one another all over the city. I didn't hear BLM mentioned in any of the videos or official stories but it wouldn't surprise me if they were there too.

I don't think any official information has been released on the guy in custody, but from what I gleaned from the videos it sounded like the guy who carried out the attack was one of the Nazis. From conversations you overhear in the videos it sounded like the guy was heckling the group shortly beforehand and then went to his car. It could've been though that people were assuming and projecting in the heat of the moment and a "fellow" leftist mistook them for right wingers - neither option is any less disgusting.

So anti-racism is leftist? Your summary is nice because I haven't checked a computer or news all day until thirty minutes ago, but I just didn't understand that portion.

 

[McLaren]

I think Quake is just repeating what was being said in the stream; someone in the protest probably decided to identify the group as "anti-racists" just because they were in support of the removal of a Confederate statue b/c now-a-days, confederates=racists.

It is funny though considering some of the people in Antifa/BLM get as racist as the white supremacists & Neo Nazis they clash with.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I think Quake is just repeating what was being said in the stream; someone in the protest probably decided to identify the group as "anti-racists" just because they were in support of the removal of a Confederate statue b/c now-a-days, confederates=racists.

It is funny though considering some of the people in Antifa/BLM get as racist as the white supremacists & Neo Nazis they clash with.

That's my point, the way he wrote it makes it seem that "anti-racism" is equated to leftist, but there are plenty of people in various walks that qualify as non-racist, even deep south republicans. Just as you pointed out that BLM members especially to me who hate "all lives matter" talk, are equally racist as those protesters that came out today in the form or Neo-Nazi/White Supremacists.

 

[Quakebass]

That's my point, the way he wrote it makes it seem that "anti-racism" is equated to leftist, but there are plenty of people in various walks that qualify as non-racist, even deep south republicans. Just as you pointed out that BLM members especially to me who hate "all lives matter" talk, are equally racist as those protesters that came out today in the form or Neo-Nazi/White Supremacists.

@McLaren got it right - it was the people in the video throwing the "anti-racists" name around, and based on the comments made from people in the video it seemed to be a leftist movement, "opposing the far right".

All I was doing was posting what I'd observed, and what it looked like was that a Nazi attacked a group of leftists amongst a city-wide clash between a multitude of left and right leaning groups.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

@McLaren got it right - it was the people in the video throwing the "anti-racists" name around, and based on the comments made from people in the video it seemed to be a leftist movement, "opposing the far right".

All I was doing was posting what I'd observed, and what it looked like was that a Nazi attacked a group of leftists amongst a city-wide clash between a multitude of left and right leaning groups.

That's fine I just wanted clarification for a portion of the summary, that up to that point was a pretty objective overview of the events that happened. As I said it was a useful summary for someone that only heard about it several hours after it all went down.

A complete crap show all around, but for it to go that way with people being injured or killed because of a visceral dogma of hate is sad and only causes more issues down the road.

 

[Quakebass]

That's fine I just wanted clarification for a portion of the summary, that up to that point was a pretty objective overview of the events that happened. As I said it was a useful summary for someone that only heard about it several hours after it all went down.

A complete crap show all around, but for it to go that way with people being injured or killed because of a visceral dogma of hate is sad and only causes more issues down the road.

I've actually gone back and re-watched some of the footage, the crowd that got plowed into was in fact a BLM group, I'd just skipped over the part in the livestream where they were chanting it. I've now read conflicting things from a few sources about the attacker's stance, but nothing sounds concrete so I won't link anything yet. There's said to be a bond hearing on Monday so we probably won't know anything about the guy piece of filth for another few days.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I've actually gone back and re-watched some of the footage, the crowd that got plowed into was in fact a BLM group, I'd just skipped over the part in the livestream where they were chanting it. I've now read conflicting things from a few sources about the attacker's stance, but nothing sounds concrete so I won't link anything yet. There's said to be a bond hearing on Monday so we probably won't know anything about the guy piece of filth for another few days.

Well then all media outlets have cut that out, because I haven't seen any chants of BLM nor did I see tons of black men and women getting run over. Not to say they weren't there but still, even if there were this isn't the right action. None of it shows him being attacked, and it seemed it was some what premeditated.

 

[phillgt2002]

Just another day in the US with the obvious elephant in the room that many people like to ignore.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Just another day in the US with the obvious elephant in the room that many people like to ignore.

That being?

 

[phillgt2002]

That being?

Generally racism/bigotry.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Generally racism/bigotry.

Pretty sure it's been a national conversation for the past several years due to various events, you have to be more descriptive. Unless you were just intending to drop a comment and run?

 

[homeforsummer]

Whatever their reasons for showing themselves are, I think it's equally dangerous not knowing how many white supremacists there are knocking around.

I don't see how that's dangerous considering if they're not a known white supremacist chances are they aren't going around causing havoc.

^ This. A very quick look around the internet will identify plenty of people who hold dodgy views, but doing something likely to turn keyboard warriors into people who take action doesn't strike me as being particularly wise.

People will always be dumb and racist, but on its own that's pretty harmless. Making dumb racist people violent is more of a problem.

 

[andrea]

Just another day in the US with the obvious elephant in the room that many people like to ignore.

Hell of a day for the President to forget how to tweet.

 

[ryzno]

Hell of a day for the President to forget how to tweet.

I was waiting for you lol!
Press conference isn't good enough for you? VP Tweet isn't good enough for you? Him calling the Governor isn't good enough for you?

 

[phillgt2002]

Hell of a day for the President to forget how to tweet.

Cool.

 

[andrea]

I was waiting for you lol!
Press conference isn't good enough for you? VP Tweet isn't good enough for you? Him calling the Governor isn't good enough for you?

If only Trump was as angry over Nazis as he was at Nordstrom after it stopped selling Ivanka's handbags.

 

[Famine]

If only Trump was as angry over Nazis as he was at Nordstrom after it stopped selling Ivanka's handbags.

Are you capable of posting anything that isn't someone else's Tweet?

I mean, you didn't embed or credit this one, but it's still just someone else's Tweet.

 

[polysmut]

Are you capable of posting anything that isn't someone else's Tweet?

I mean, you didn't embed or credit this one, but it's still just someone else's Tweet.

Probably not. I thought you meant this one.

 

[Wolfe]

I find it very troubling how unnecessarily difficult it is to determine how many literal neo-nazis and white supremacists there were at this event, compared to people protesting the erasure of history, standing up to Antifa, rallying in the spirit of free speech, or actually trolling by assuming the appearance of a nazi or white supremacist. People have been called "nazis" and "racists" and "white supremacists" far too often to take such labels at face value, and there are almost no trustworthy sources anymore because the mainstream media defaults to such labels and alt-right outlets understate their presence.

The hysteria of carelessly throwing around these labels has overblown and obfuscated the extent of racism in this country while simultaneously emboldening literal neo-nazis and racists.

 

[photonrider]

Left, right, left, right, left, right . . . no way to be at ease on this march towards madness.

 

[Northstar]

Left, right, left, right, left, right . . . no way to be at ease on this march towards madness.

Our only hope is that a common sense epidemic breaks out.