America - The Official Thread

[Joey D]

doughnuts/coffee

This is Utah, we don't drink coffee here because of caffeine, so it's more like diet, caffeine free Pepsi and donuts.

We received an e-mail from the university president yesterday basically saying U of U supports the nurse and will be pursuing action against the SLPD, not sure what that means. I'm sure it's hard when a state employee (the cop) assaults another state employee (the nurse) in a state owned building.

I know a lot of people out there are saying that the nurse should have just complied with the request, but chances are she would have been fired for violating hospital policy and the patient's rights. Also, the blood sample would be inadmissible in court.

Were those the university cops mentioned in the article?

I'm not sure we have university police, at least I've never seen them. It's typically either SLPC or Unified PD (which is a joint venture police force in the SLC metro area). I think the university guys were just hospital security.

 

[UKMikey]

I'm not sure we have university police, at least I've never seen them. It's typically either SLPC or Unified PD (which is a joint venture police force in the SLC metro area). I think the university guys were just hospital security.

I have no reason to disbelieve you so maybe the article writers were misinformed.

Wubbels can be seen trying to tell Payne to calm down while telling her boss on the phone that Payne was threatening to arrest her, and that a University of Utah police officer who was present wasn't going to stop him.

The department's web page mentions a reserve officer btw, maybe that was the tubby cop.

 

[Imari]

I'm sure there are one or two five foot 120 lb women that are capable of holding their own against 240 lb bull necked men but I'm talking about the average not the exceptional.

A fat donut and coffee swilling cop isn't going to be able to take a 240lb bull necked man either, so what's your point?

Being short isn't something that anyone can do anything about, but I imagine short cops mostly work hard so that they are still physically capable with their taller and heavier colleagues. On the other hand, being a giant lard arse seems like a much more personal decision. Some people are just naturally chunky the same way that some are naturally short, but being out of shape and unable to see your own toes seems like it goes a bit beyond that.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Since this is actually public now, I can post about it.

https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45629038&n...es-police-video-of-crazy-arrest-by-sl-officer

A SLC police officers wanted to obtain a blood sample from a badly burned and unconscious truck driver involved in a serious accident, however he didn't have warrant or consent from the patient, there's also a policy that was signed by the SLPD stating they needed a warrant. When the nurse refused, because she was following policy, the law, and to an extent HIPAA the detective arrested her.

I try to stand up for cops because I think they have a tough job and are often accused of things wrongly, but it's actions like this that really leave a negative look at law enforcement.

This annoyed me more cause I have a wife that is also a nurse, and they have to refuse things many times no matter who the person is. And what some people don't realize is that if the Nurse had complied against the law and agreement the police office had with that hospital, it could have been quite a malpractice issue potentially. Further she is protecting her license, say she did do this, and the person who didn't consent goes to correct outlet, she loses her job, because of the ego of another person.

I find it strange that a person like the officer in question, did this basically due to being irritated that someone knew their job better than he did his, and then he conflates the issue by arresting an innocent woman. The entire time she looks in fear and it becomes even more apparent (obviously so) when she is arrested. I honestly think he should be on leave.

 

[polysmut]

I know a lot of people out there are saying that the nurse should have just complied with the request, but chances are she would have been fired for violating hospital policy and the patient's rights. Also, the blood sample would be inadmissible in court.

Also, it would have been the wrong thing to do.

 

[Com Fox]

I know a lot of people out there are saying that the nurse should have just complied with the request, but chances are she would have been fired for violating hospital policy and the patient's rights. Also, the blood sample would be inadmissible in court.

I'm usually one to think the best coarse of action is to comply, however I do know there is a thing called exceptions and I think this situation is one of them.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm usually one to think the best coarse of action is to comply

She knew that to comply would be illegal and her superiors (on the phone) were saying the same thing. Ultimately the PD seem to accept in their apologies that their officer should have known that his request (and any subsequent compliance) was illegal.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Also, it would have been the wrong thing to do.

Bigger issue is not losing your job as a nurse, but your license over these things and never being able to work again. But the ethical thing is it is wrong, it's not really even ethical it's just wrong on all levels as you say.

 

[ryzno]

I must say I'm kinda surprised y'all find a nurse getting arrested for doing her job, is more important than an officer saying "we only kill black people".

But hey, what do I know...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I must say I'm kinda surprised y'all find a nurse getting arrested for doing her job, is more important than an officer saying "we only kill black people".

But hey, what do I know...

No cause he actually got fired, what's more strange is that it took a year for the department he worked for to figure it out. It's a non-story, he said it, got fired and now the police force are doing damage control. What do you want to talk about? As a person of color also I don't care, the guy was being sarcastic and racists and lost his job for it. The end.

 

[ryzno]

No cause he actually got fired, what's more strange is that it took a year for the department he worked for to figure it out. It's a non-story he said it got fired and now that police force are doing damage control. What do you want to talk about? As a person of color also I don't care, the guy was being sarcastic and racists and lost his job for it. The end.

For starters he just retired. He wasn't fired. If it is over a year old, that should be a concern right there.They knew and kept him around.
Sarcastic or not, with all the racial tension, this isn't helping the police image.
Oh and Cobb county police and residents are known to be racist.
They are the only county here were you have to own a gun to own a house.
Let that sink in.

The officer who arrested the nurse will suffer whatever repercussions happen. Does that make it non news?
I mean officers arrest people all the time for BS and the people walk out the next day.
Is she still locked up?

Joking about killing people is not something to do, to "calm down" a situation.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

For starters he just retired. He wasn't fired. If it is over a year old, that should be a concern right there.
Sarcastic or not, with all the racial tension, this isn't helping the police image.

The officer who arrested the nurse will suffer whatever repercussions happen. Does that make it non news?
I mean officers arrest people all the time for BS and the people walk out the next day.
Is she still locked up?

Joking about killing people is not something to do, to "calm down" a situation.

No he said he was retiring, the police department said they would be firing him, watched the report the other day on CBSN.

This here even shows the context you may have missed.

"It is unclear whether officials would accept Abbott’s resignation or follow through with their plan to terminate him."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...old-a-woman-on-camera/?utm_term=.b17a0e1fb2f5

The nurse situation isn't non-news because the guy last I checked was still active duty while under an IA investigation. When news broke about the officer illegally asking for a Blood sample, and then arresting a nurse on no grounds other than a BS one he could try to justify that didn't work, he should have been suspended or on leave.

He wasn't joking about killing people, clearly there is missing context to make it a news story, realizing that as I'd hope people would rather than eat up what they see first and foremost goes a long way. The cop says something stupid and asinine because of the situation in which the person he pulls over is acting as if police are a general threat to public, the officer said a poor sarcastic joke on the matter. Once again the police force he works for said this is not good behavior and denounced it. His boss also, like you, agrees this isn't the image police need ever.

 

[Johnnypenso]

No cause he actually got fired, what's more strange is that it took a year for the department he worked for to figure it out. It's a non-story he said it got fired and now that police force are doing damage control. What do you want to talk about? As a person of color also I don't care, the guy was being sarcastic and racists and lost his job for it. The end.

If it's sarcasm and therefore a joke, in poor taste obviously, how is it also racist?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

If it's sarcasm and therefore a joke, in poor taste obviously, how is it also racist?

One can't make a joke that comes off with racist undertones? Wow, I'm amazed if this is the case. It's racist potentially because of the demographic he is talking about, considering he makes a statement to sarcastically defuse a situation by throwing a specific race under the bus (or sights), that specific race could easily make claim or racism. Thinking of the climate of police image in the U.S. thanks to certain groups, this situation only helps them out. I don't find it racist, others will, which is what you clearly didn't get from my post, or you wouldn't be bothering to ask.

 

[Johnnypenso]

One can't make a joke that comes off with racist undertones? Wow, I'm amazed if this is the case. It's racist potentially because of the demographic he is talking about, considering he makes a statement to sarcastically defuse a situation by throwing a specific race under the bus (or sights), that specific race could easily make claim or racism. Thinking of the climate of police image in the U.S. thanks to certain groups, this situation only helps them out. I don't find it racist, others will, which is what you clearly didn't get from my post, or you wouldn't be bothering to ask.

I thought jokes were, by definition, not to be taken literally or seriously. Sarcasm in particular, is an attempt to mock a particular viewpoint through the use of irony. If it is indeed sarcasm as you suggested, the officer involved is mocking the viewpoint that officers only shoot black people. In poor taste, yes. Inherently racist, no.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I thought jokes were, by definition, not to be taken literally or seriously. Sarcasm in particular, is an attempt to mock a particular viewpoint through the use of irony. If it is indeed sarcasm as you suggested, the officer involved is mocking the viewpoint that officers only shoot black people. In poor taste, yes. Inherently racist, no.

Who says it's inherently racist? Let's dumb this down so we can move on to pastures of more importance since as I said this really is a non-story. While I understand it to be sarcastic, I also understand the police departments stance on this, and that is that no matter the context it is in poor taste. Some people will see it sarcastic because of the situation and parties involved and context. Others will see it as flat out racist, and a police officer reaffirming their racist beliefs that police don't like blacks.

IF you're suggesting that I'm calling this racist, just stop, and move on. Because as I've said from the get go, I don't see the racism personally, but I'm sure others will.

 

[Parker]

A fat donut and coffee swilling cop isn't going to be able to take a 240lb bull necked man either, so what's your point?

Being short isn't something that anyone can do anything about, but I imagine short cops mostly work hard so that they are still physically capable with their taller and heavier colleagues. On the other hand, being a giant lard arse seems like a much more personal decision. Some people are just naturally chunky the same way that some are naturally short, but being out of shape and unable to see your own toes seems like it goes a bit beyond that.

In my experience, that fat donut cop will still be a lot better backup in a fight than a female officer. I work with quite a few fat turds, plenty that probably wouldn't be able to pass the physical standards of the Academy anymore, but I'd much rather be in a fight with them than just about any female officer on my department. Don't get me wrong, I work with plenty of great female officers but even those that are more athletic than a male are often far worse in a fight, simply because they aren't as strong and as such aren't as much of a help, even as much as a "giant lard arse." Of course it doesn't help that many departments have different standards for different people (race and gender) officially or unofficially, but there is nothing I can do to stop that, a lot of departments care more about image and "equality" over the safety officers or the public.

If Kentucky successfully screws our pension system I'm out of the Law Enforcement game though. A 25 year career (I would retire when I'm 46) is potentially going to be a 40 year career before I can retire and from seeing all the politics from admin and above I can only see my enjoyment working this job going down. We'll see though, I suppose.

 

[Imari]

In my experience, that fat donut cop will still be a lot better backup in a fight than a female officer.

If the fight is a bar room brawl. We can all think of situations in which a fat slug will be preferable for sheer size, and we can all think of situations in which someone who can stand up without getting out of breath might be an advantage. The question is which of those situations are more common and more valuable.

I can't see the fat slug doing much for you outside of the specific situation in which you're cornered and have to fight unarmed but you're only outnumbered by enough that another strong body makes a difference. Maybe that comes up a lot. I'm not a cop. But over here, police have guns if they want deadly force, tasers if they want probably not deadly force, and pepper spray if they want to make someone weepy. None of those tools depend on the size of the user, only the skill with which they use them.

I'll take the cop that gives enough of a 🤬 to train, stay in shape and try to do their job well over someone who is coasting through life any day of the week. People can do amazing things when they want to, regardless of size, and I'd rather depend on the willpower of a colleague than their bulk.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

If the fight is a bar room brawl. We can all think of situations in which a fat slug will be preferable for sheer size, and we can all think of situations in which someone who can stand up without getting out of breath might be an advantage. The question is which of those situations are more common and more valuable.

I can't see the fat slug doing much for you outside of the specific situation in which you're cornered and have to fight unarmed but you're only outnumbered by enough that another strong body makes a difference. Maybe that comes up a lot. I'm not a cop. But over here, police have guns if they want deadly force, tasers if they want probably not deadly force, and pepper spray if they want to make someone weepy. None of those tools depend on the size of the user, only the skill with which they use them.

I'll take the cop that gives enough of a 🤬 to train, stay in shape and try to do their job well over someone who is coasting through life any day of the week. People can do amazing things when they want to, regardless of size, and I'd rather depend on the willpower of a colleague than their bulk.

And not healthy bulk either, just cause you're big and chunky doesn't mean you're stronger. In fact I'd rather take on a person I can wind easier than someone that can easily keep pace with me. Not sure why people are justifying unhealthy regiment in a job that calls for health (not you obviously Imari, I agree with you), even if it didn't require it, I'd still call a spade a spade.

 

[Parker]

Not sure why people are justifying unhealthy regiment in a job that calls for health

Who is doing that? I was giving my personal experience that a person who looks like a fat turd may not in fact be a fat turd and can be more help than someone who looks healthy. I think there absolutely should be standards that need to be met and upheld to both enter the academy as well as continue to work the job, but in our political and sue happy world departments are putting officers and the public in danger to appease people. Hell, in the short 5 years I've been on the job the physical requirements to get in the academy have dropped to almost embarrassing levels and it certainly shows with some of the people I work with.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Who is doing that? I was giving my personal experience that a person who looks like a fat turd may not in fact be a fat turd and can be more help than someone who looks healthy. I think there absolutely should be standards that need to be met and upheld to both enter the academy as well as continue to work the job, but in our political and sue happy world departments are putting officers and the public in danger to appease people. Hell, in the short 5 years I've been on the job the physical requirements to get in the academy have dropped to almost embarrassing levels and it certainly shows with some of the people I work with.

I don't recall saying you were the one, you may have to some degree, but you weren't the only one saying something to a degree that would come off favoring them.

And I agree with most of what you've said here, people are to happy to appease. My brother in the military has seen this a bit more than I'd have expected.

 

[Imari]

I was giving my personal experience that a person who looks like a fat turd may not in fact be a fat turd and can be more help than someone who looks healthy.

Sounded like personal experience with fat turds to me.

I work with quite a few fat turds, plenty that probably wouldn't be able to pass the physical standards of the Academy anymore, but I'd much rather be in a fight with them than just about any female officer on my department. Don't get me wrong, I work with plenty of great female officers but even those that are more athletic than a male are often far worse in a fight, simply because they aren't as strong and as such aren't as much of a help, even as much as a "giant lard arse."

Sounds an awful lot like people who look like fat turds and are fat turds are still more help than someone who is healthy. More help for what, exactly? Are cops really getting into fist fights that much more often than foot races? I'd have thought it'd be the opposite. Or are we saying that a car makes up for the fact that a fat turd can't run while we ignore that appropriate weapons make up for a lack of strength?

 

[Parker]

Are cops really getting into fist fights that much more often than foot races?

Yes, I fight someone far more often than I chase after them. Of course I can generally tell when someone is going to run on me so I'll close distance, box them in while talking to prevent that. Less lethal weapons don't make up for a lack of strength, tasers fail quite often and a lot of departments require an officer with their weapon drawn on the suspect before a taser can be used so a lot of times that isn't even an option.

Again, I would prefer departments have higher physical standards and uphold those standards for officers but if they did that then a lot of women (and men) would be out of a job. Obviously I would prefer to have my backup be a fit, in shape male, but in my experience an unhealthy, fat male is still more help than the vast majority of female officers. That isn't to say that female officers are bad or can't do their job, but when it comes to the physical aspect of the job many are lacking. Police departments are already having a tough enough time getting people to apply, especially around here with all the pension garbage going on, so upholding physical standards for officers would make departments lose even more people than they have already, and with the "solution" to our pension problem being some officers working 40+ years before they can retire, it would create a massive problem.

But I think we're in agreement, police officers should be fit and in shape. It makes the department, and us as a whole, look bad to see these guys on the streets and on television. Unfortunately, I don't think there is anything that can really be done about it.

 

[Imari]

Less lethal weapons don't make up for a lack of strength, tasers fail quite often and a lot of departments require an officer with their weapon drawn on the suspect before a taser can be used so a lot of times that isn't even an option.

This isn't really relevant to the conversation that we were having, but I find that sort of procedural requirement baffling. I'm more used to the military mindset where you don't draw a firearm on someone unless you're prepared to kill them. And if you're prepared to kill them it sort of feels like using a taser in that situation is the wrong tool for the job. Requiring that a firearm be drawn first seems like ensuring that tasers only get used in situations where they're not the right weapon to use.

I'm aware that there are places and professions in which it's deemed acceptable to use a firearm to threaten someone without actually intending to use it, but I'm not a fan of it. If you don't need lethal force, put the lethal weapon away.

Obviously I would prefer to have my backup be a fit, in shape male, but in my experience an unhealthy, fat male is still more help than the vast majority of female officers. That isn't to say that female officers are bad or can't do their job, but when it comes to the physical aspect of the job many are lacking.

While we're both more or less on the same page with regards to fitness, I'm not sure that there's value to bringing gender into it at all. We'd all prefer our backup to be a fit, in-shape and capable officer. An unhealthy, fat officer is often more help than a small and feeble officer, and that's true regardless of gender. Statistics dictate that it is more likely that an officer of acceptable fitness and strength is male than female, but you don't work with statistics. You work with people, and if the person backing you up is capable it doesn't matter if they're a squatter or a pointer.

Females are unlikely ever to be a majority in front-line, physically demanding jobs simply because of how human genetics work. But it would help those that are capable if it's recognised that the barrier to entry is performance based rather than whether your gonads dangle.

 

[BobK]

This isn't really relevant to the conversation that we were having, but I find that sort of procedural requirement baffling. I'm more used to the military mindset where you don't draw a firearm on someone unless you're prepared to kill them. And if you're prepared to kill them it sort of feels like using a taser in that situation is the wrong tool for the job. Requiring that a firearm be drawn first seems like ensuring that tasers only get used in situations where they're not the right weapon to use.

This baffles me as well. Any primer on firearm safety stresses that you never point a firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot.

 

[mustafur]

So I guess we are getting some first hand answers here why some cops are fatally shooting people for what seems like completely unacceptable reasons.

There are some police departments that tell their officers to have their gun out instantly for any threat and by reaction shoot when there is the slightest fear even if it's completely irrational to do so.

That is Scary asf.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Obviously I would prefer to have my backup be a fit, in shape male, but in my experience an unhealthy, fat male is still more help than the vast majority of female officers. That isn't to say that female officers are bad or can't do their job, but when it comes to the physical aspect of the job many are lacking

But you make it sound like many of the male officers are lacking too? At least it sounds like it when you say

... higher physical standards...a lot of women (and men) would be out of a job.

"Fat but fit" is a myth. The best answer to policing need is well trained, physically fit officers of any gender who are capable of the role. I struggle to see where the lard-arses are at all useful. In fact, the more room they take up in a struggle the less useful I can see them being.

 

[Joey D]

Well, the officer that wrongfully arrested the nurse ended up losing his second job as a paramedic: https://www.ksl.com/?sid=45689348&nid=148

Probably for the best since I don't think any medic company wants someone on their staff known for assaulting nurses. Now only if he'd end up losing his job on the police department too.

Also, because of the incident, police are no longer able to interact directly with nursing staff and instead must either contact a supervisor, someone from the administration, or someone from the legal team. I'm really glad the University is taking a stand on this, even if it does end up hindering some investigations. But I guess that's what you get when you're officers can't follow the law, you loose privileges.

 

[Parker]

But you make it sound like many of the male officers are lacking too?

Yes, many male officers are lacking too and I find that unacceptable.

But I guess that's what you get when you're officers can't follow the law, you loose privileges.

Officers or Officer? I'm aware of only one incident and I believe only one officer was involved in that illegal arrest, unless I'm mistaken. That being said, here in Louisville we've already felt the effects of that idiot's (the officer) poor decision.

http://www.wdrb.com/clip/13679601/l...r-allegedly-smearing-officers-face-with-feces

A Corrections Officer had feces smeared in her face by an inmate, the inmate refused a blood draw so a court order was issued to get her blood, the nursing staff at the hospital refused to do the blood draw despite the court order until the hospital lawyer got involved and essentially said they have to comply. I've spoken with people involved and it seems that the refusal was done because of what happened in Utah, apparently as their way of standing with that nurse.

I'm glad the Officer who illegally arrested that nurse lost his job, but painting all Law Enforcement with the same brush is idiotic and to blame people hundreds of miles away for his mistake is doing nothing but hurting your own community. In my opinion, of course.

 

[Joey D]

Officers or Officer? I'm aware of only one incident and I believe only one officer was involved in that illegal arrest, unless I'm mistaken. That being said, here in Louisville we've already felt the effects of that idiot's (the officer) poor decision.

http://www.wdrb.com/clip/13679601/l...r-allegedly-smearing-officers-face-with-feces

A Corrections Officer had feces smeared in her face by an inmate, the inmate refused a blood draw so a court order was issued to get her blood, the nursing staff at the hospital refused to do the blood draw despite the court order until the hospital lawyer got involved and essentially said they have to comply. I've spoken with people involved and it seems that the refusal was done because of what happened in Utah, apparently as their way of standing with that nurse.

I'm glad the Officer who illegally arrested that nurse lost his job, but painting all Law Enforcement with the same brush is idiotic and to blame people hundreds of miles away for his mistake is doing nothing but hurting your own community. In my opinion, of course.

Fair point, yes it should be "officer". However, as far as I know, the other officers at the scene are facing similar disciplinary actions. Apparently, we do have University cops, which is weird since I'm on campus nearly every day and I've never seen them, they're always just security guards. But I'm not sure if standing by while an officer breaks the law is considered a crime or not (I legitimately don't know if it's aiding and abetting).

And I'm surprised they're standing with the nurse on that one. If the officer had shown up to the hospital with a warrant to get the blood, the hospital policy dictates that the nurse would have needed to comply. Since we're also the hospital for all state, county, and city inmates, I'm guessing that happens frequently without issue. Also, every hospital I've ever worked at has pretty much the same policy, blood can't be drawn without patient consent or a warrant.