America - The Official Thread

[Denur]

Other then that I don't know enough about the 60's to comment on the subject.

Ballony, or however it is spelled. You're an adult and you're interested in stuff beyond your house. You read newspapers, you watch the History Channel and while in bed, you break your brains about all kind of stuff in life. So don't give me that poop that you don't know enough about the sixties (I was born in the sixties, but just a puppy when we entered the seventies, probably I still poobed my pants). You don't have to have been there to know what was going on. It just takes some research. BTW Joey, what is your major?

Did you know I pooped my pants last month? I was a bit drunk and needed to fart and then all hell broke lose. And I don't care, because I know that either me or my cleaning lady will correct it and all will smell nice again.

Sh.. happen Joey and than you wake up and think, things ain't as bad as they seem. And even, Darn, I love this country. Did You know that that redneck Bush spend more money in Africa against AIDS then any president before him? It may be bying a ticket into heaven, but also the guy might have a heart after all.

 

[Denur]

There are two truths in life: The world is always getting better, and people are always saying it’s getting worse.

BTW, almost all of the Founding Fathers were deists (only because it was difficult to be an atheist before Darwinism) or Unitarians.

You´re american, maybe you can give the pledge of allegence to us. One nation, under God, etc....

When a new president is sworn into office, the Bible plays a big role. So much for seperation of state and religion.

 

[Joey D]

Ballony, or however it is spelled. You're an adult and you're interested in stuff beyond your house. You read newspapers, you watch the History Channel and while in bed, you break your brains about all kind of stuff in life. So don't give me that poop that you don't know enough about the sixties (I was born in the sixties, but just a puppy when we entered the seventies, probably I still poobed my pants). You don't have to have been there to know what was going on. It just takes some research. BTW Joey, what is your major?

Well I know about things like the Vietnam War, Cold War, and the space race but I've never really been taught much about the social movements other then by the a few shows I've seen on the History Channel. I know about it but I don't know about it in depth. My parents were too young in the 60's for them to really tell me anything either.

My major is Anthropology with a concentration in Archaeology, next year I will be attending grad school for public administration with a concentration in non-profit management.

 

[Sage]

You´re american, maybe you can give the pledge of allegence to us. One nation, under God, etc....

Well, first off, the pledge was written by Francis Bellamy, a self-identified Christian Socialist who worked for a magazine called Youth’s Companion. The magazine made a buttload of money from selling flags to schools, and so they published the pledge and rallied educators to adopt it – boom, more flag sales!

Also, the original pledge made no reference to God. It was added in 1954 at the behest of President Eisenhower when George MacPherson Docherty, a Presbyterian minister, talked about it in a sermon that Eisenhower attended, and then privately convinced Eisenhower to go through with it.

 

[Loon]

Did you know I pooped my pants last month? I was a bit drunk and needed to fart and then all hell broke lose. And I don't care, because I know that either me or my cleaning lady will correct it and all will smell nice again.

...WTF is a matter with you?

When a new president is sworn into office, the Bible plays a big role. So much for seperation of state and religion.

Gotta be sworn in on something don't you? And if I understand correctly whoever is being sworn in can bring whatever book they want.

 

[Joey D]

Wasn't adding "God" to the pledge just a way to "stick it to those red-commie bastards" in the Soviet Union? At least that's what I've been told.

This goes along with that:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm

 

[Omnis]

BTW, almost all of the Founding Fathers were deists (only because it was difficult to be an atheist before Darwinism) or Unitarians.

I don't think so. I think you can hold some belief in fideism while still having a deist attitude toward the world. But, if they were atheist, they would never have been deist in the first place... or something like that.

 

[Denur]

Well I know about things like the Vietnam War, Cold War, and the space race but I've never really been taught much about the social movements other then by the a few shows I've seen on the History Channel. I know about it but I don't know about it in depth. My parents were too young in the 60's for them to really tell me anything either.

My major is Anthropology with a concentration in Archaeology, next year I will be attending grad school for public administration with a concentration in non-profit management.

I guess I don't understant your school system. Your major is anthropology (interesting subject btw), which sounds like a university education and than you talk about going grad school, which sounds like college. Please explain.

Also, how long is your hair? Do you, would you, like to smoke pot? In other words are you left-wing, right-wing, or somewhere in between (from my old-age-stand of view). Have you ever given your english teachure (somehow, that doesn't seem to be spelled correcly) an apple or given a helping fingre while youre dear cousin was exploring her newly found depth? Again, these are somewhat personal questions, so if you feel like giving me the finger, please do so (it won't hurt, I think)

 

[Denur]

...WTF is a matter with you?

I wish I knew, but my thrink won't tell me.

 

[Denur]

...Gotta be sworn in on something don't you? And if I understand correctly whoever is being sworn in can bring whatever book they want.

That would be nice, when Obama all of a sudden brings out ye good ol' Koran and turns out to be a muslim. I think the KKK will have a field day.

 

[Sage]

I don't think so. I think you can hold some belief in fideism while still having a deist attitude toward the world. But, if they were atheist, they would never have been deist in the first place... or something like that.

Huh?

 

[Denur]

Huh?

Try this: http://www.gotquestions.org/fideism.html

Edit> A few years ago I had a collegue who was/is very faithfull. Biblebelt type. While I am inclined to believe that was is written in the new testament to be based on truth, this man believes that the old testament is the very truth. Which in his view means o.a. that the Earth is not older than a few thousand years, because so it is written. When presented with evidence that the Earth is billions of years old, he got a very good argument: God made it so that when we would be able to measure a thing's age, he would make it so that we would never be able to get the correct age. And that makes sense too! Doesn't it. Sure does.

 

[YSSMAN]

I think he means that if the founders hadn't placed so much emphasis on reason (deism) over faith (fideism) things would have been very different. I think. I'm really not sure either.

Religion, no matter how you try to spin it, is a very important part of our culture here in the United States. From our founding to the present day, its always there in the back of our minds. However, without question America is full of some of the absolute worst religious folks; The ignorant followers. They know very little about their religion, and even worse, attempt to condemn others for their own beliefs despite them often knowing more.

Fanatic religious ingrates are (part of) what makes our country horrible... People like Pat Robertson and the 700 Club are what drive me crazy. Understandably there is a place for religion and Christmas and all of that other "culture war" stuff in society, but pushing your own beliefs onto others should not be tolerated... Maybe that makes us worse, maybe it doesn't, but I don't want to have to deal with it. I'm just as Christian as everyone else, but that doesn't mean that I have to carry a Bible with me and pray before every meal.

EDIT:

And yes, it goes just the same for any other religion. The Islamic fundamentalists are just as bad.

That being said, I'd love to see more schools teach about the different faiths. I was in quite a tiff last year when I found out my "Catholic" college didn't have a comparative religion class. I find Islam and Hinduism incredibly interesting, and really given the times, it would seem as though it would be overly important for people to have some understanding of these religions. Particularly in the Christianity-Judaism-Islamic triangle (all essentially worship the same God, come from the same people, etc).

 

[Denur]

I was in quite a tiff last year when I found out my "Catholic" college didn't have a comparative religion class.

I've been to Catholic school all of my youth, and didn't find out until I was an adult that I had been lied to by those o-so-nice-people all my life. All my life upto 20 yo I believed that the crusaders were hero's who defended our way of life. But then I learned that they were no more than a bunch of looting rapists who used the faith as an excuse. I almost felt like giving all those lovely Mars bars back to my dear priest.

 

[Danoff]

People like Pat Robertson and the 700 Club are what drive me crazy.

At least they don't go around blowing people up.

And yes, it goes just the same for any other religion. The Islamic fundamentalists are just as bad 100 times worse.

Fixed that for you.

We can skip the philosophy bits right now as that is way off topic.

It has to do with why you hate America. Feel free to address my point about the non-subjective physical results (electricity, GPS, etc.) we get from our non-subjective logic and reasoning.

 

[YSSMAN]

At least they don't go around blowing people up.

I think the IRA disagrees...

But yes, in general, Cristian nutjobs are much more "peaceful" despite their fiery and occasionally offensive rhetoric.

 

[Omnis]

Huh?

Yeah, I read that again after coming back from Easter dinner and I don't think I got across what I meant.

Basically what I was trying to say is that even though they were deist (as opposed to fideist), it still didn't mean that they would have been atheist were it for Darwinism. I guess Darwinism (evolution/natural selection/etc.) could work with deism, but it doesn't mean that you don't believe in God or gods (Unless Darwinism specifically calls for atheism. ...I wouldn't know).

So basically they were (or would have been, regardless) deist, or as "athiest" as possible while still believing in God, for God-- the creator/higher power-- was a prime justification in the establishment of equal sovereignty of each individual.

 

[Omnis]

edit: Sorry for the double-post.

Fanatic religious ingrates are (part of) what makes our country horrible... People like Pat Robertson and the 700 Club are what drive me crazy. Understandably there is a place for religion and Christmas and all of that other "culture war" stuff in society, but pushing your own beliefs onto others should not be tolerated... Maybe that makes us worse, maybe it doesn't, but I don't want to have to deal with it. I'm just as Christian as everyone else, but that doesn't mean that I have to carry a Bible with me and pray before every meal.

Yeah, but everyone else does have the right to carry a Bible and pray before every meal. Pushing your own beliefs onto others should not be tolerated? By whom? Others? Do you realize that pushing your belief onto me is directly violating your belief that pushing your beliefs onto others should not be tolerated?

So, why are you so worried about everyone else's religious tolerance? They're doing no injustice by being tolerant. Get over it.

I think the IRA disagrees...

But yes, in general, Cristian nutjobs are much more "peaceful" despite their fiery and occasionally offensive rhetoric.

Yeah, because Pat Robertson has nothing to do with the IRA conflict.

I guess I don't understant your school system. Your major is anthropology (interesting subject btw), which sounds like a university education and than you talk about going grad school, which sounds like college. Please explain.

Also, how long is your hair? Do you, would you, like to smoke pot? In other words are you left-wing, right-wing, or somewhere in between (from my old-age-stand of view).

He's in college, and is thinking about going to [college] graduate school for a Master's or PhD.

Also, hair length-- especially hair length-- and whether or not someone smokes pot has nothing to do with political affiliation.

 

[Sage]

Basically what I was trying to say is that even though they were deist (as opposed to fideist), it still didn't mean that they would have been atheist were it for Darwinism. I guess Darwinism (evolution/natural selection/etc.) could work with deism, but it doesn't mean that you don't believe in God or gods (Unless Darwinism specifically calls for atheism. ...I wouldn't know).

Ah, I see what you’re saying.

Darwinism doesn’t necessarily call for atheism. However, let’s put it this way: For all practical purposes (I’m purposely ignoring some detailed nuances here), a deist is basically an atheist in everything except in answering the question of how we were created. If you have Darwinism though, then you have an answer to creation that doesn’t necessitate the need for a supernatural creator, and so it’s a very short step (if you’re already on that train) to discard the postulate of a deity.

I probably shouldn’t have said “only because” in my original sentence. However, I’d be willing to bet a lot of coin that Jefferson and many other Founding Fathers would have been atheist if Darwin had written On the Origin of Species during their time.

But anyway, we’re way off-subject now. My main point was just that we were not founded as a Christian nation.

And Denur, as a moderator, I have to point out that you’re straying awfully close to the “personal insult” category with your stereotyping questions about Joey. If you want to know if somebody’s liberal or conservative, just ask him that – the “analyzing” based on perceived stereotypes is not at all helpful. (If I answered all of the questions that you’ve been asking Joey, you would never ever guess where I stand in the political spectrum; however, if you look through my posts in this thread and this forum, you can indeed make out my political affiliation, because here we talk about ideas, not physical attributes.)

 

[Omnis]

Well my understanding is that deism holds that God created the universe. So, to further my point and kind of go back to what I was saying, Darwinism can be in accord with Deism, in that God/higher power is what created the beginning or scenario for the functions of Darwinism to exist or take place.

So, yeah, we're kind of off-topic, but, again, my original point was to say that the Founders probably saw this, and, because of it, used it for justification.

 

[Denur]

Also, hair length-- especially hair length-- and whether or not someone smokes pot has nothing to do with political affiliation.

Don't always take my posts too seriously.

 

[YSSMAN]

So, why are you so worried about everyone else's religious tolerance? They're doing no injustice by being tolerant. Get over it.

I have no issue with people who just act "normal" and tolerate it, I have issue with the people who come up to me and ask me "Have you accepted Jesus into your life?" and go on some massive rant about how I'm going to burn in hell for not going to church every week. Maybe its different down in South Florida (I assume it is), but this is Christian Reformed capital of the world here in West Michigan, these folks drive me crazy!

Anecdotal story:

Incredibly hot girl comes into my line at work a week or so ago, and I mean smokin' hot. She was buying some more "springy" clothing for what I had assumed to be spring break (most of the schools were on it at the time). She corrected me and told me it was next week for her, which led to the discussion "Are you at Cornerstone or Hope?" and she said Cornerstone... Its the kind of school thats really uptight about those Christian values, you know, no dancing, 11PM curfew, lessons from the Bible when discussing Science and Math, etc.

...Then of course because I'm a "godless Catholic" at Aquinas, she began to school me on the teachings of Jesus in whatever whatever...

*sigh*

Why are the hot ones always like that!?

===

Yeah, because Pat Robertson has nothing to do with the IRA conflict.

I was referring to the fact that there are radical Christian groups that blow buildings up as well, not that Pat Robertson does.

 

[Danoff]

I was referring to the fact that there are radical Christian groups that blow buildings up as well, not that Pat Robertson does.

I was referring to Pat Robertson.

 

[Omnis]

I have no issue with people who just act "normal" and tolerate it, I have issue with the people who come up to me and ask me "Have you accepted Jesus into your life?" and go on some massive rant about how I'm going to burn in hell for not going to church every week. Maybe its different down in South Florida (I assume it is), but this is Christian Reformed capital of the world here in West Michigan, these folks drive me crazy!

You missed the point I was making:

Fanatic religious ingrates are (part of) what makes our country horrible... People like Pat Robertson and the 700 Club are what drive me crazy. Understandably there is a place for religion and Christmas and all of that other "culture war" stuff in society, but pushing your own beliefs onto others should not be tolerated... Maybe that makes us worse, maybe it doesn't, but I don't want to have to deal with it. I'm just as Christian as everyone else, but that doesn't mean that I have to carry a Bible with me and pray before every meal.

Yeah, but everyone else does have the right to carry a Bible and pray before every meal. Pushing your own beliefs onto others should not be tolerated? By whom? Others? Do you realize that pushing your belief onto me is directly violating your belief that pushing your beliefs onto others should not be tolerated?

Your statement there was pretty absurd. By all means, guard yourself from "Pat Robertson types" (and the 700-Club IRA), but otherwise get over it because what they do when you're not involved shouldn't concern you.

 

[Joey D]

I don't want people pushing their religious beliefs on to me, and yes it does affect me...it affects the whole country. There is no one true and right religion, it's all up to the person to figure out what they believe.

 

[Danoff]

I don't want people pushing their religious beliefs on to me, and yes it does affect me...it affects the whole country.

I have issue with the people who come up to me and ask me "Have you accepted Jesus into your life?" and go on some massive rant about how I'm going to burn in hell for not going to church every week.

At the same time, it has to be protected under free speech.

There is no one true and right religion, it's all up to the person to figure out what they believe.

So wait, what I'm hearing from you is that nobody's right and nobody's wrong? That's surprising.[/sarcasm]

 

[Famine]

Keep those memories of your visit, and don’t let Famine destroy them with his far stretched half-truths and overly exaggerated views of this country. 👍

Exactly what part was half truthful? Or exaggerated?

Even the slightly jokey treatment of our sport (to which I didn't add "Which we export to every other country on Earth and then get beaten by them") isn't much more than a 7-pin to the truth's 10.

I haven't even added the part about the anti-terrorist hotline yet - you know, the one where you can phone up and report anyone for any activity.

 

[Joey D]

Yes you should be able to practice whatever religion you want or choose at the same time to think it's complete rubbish altogether.

And if you can show me that there is one religion (or lack of religion for that matter) that is right with the others being wrong I will gladly listen. I don't know how you can disagree with that statement to be honest.

 

[Omnis]

I don't want people pushing their religious beliefs on to me, and yes it does affect me...it affects the whole country. There is no one true and right religion, it's all up to the person to figure out what they believe.

Neither do I, but to say that "pushing your own beliefs onto others should not be tolerated" is absurd because, in effect, you are doing just that.

 

[Danoff]

And if you can show me that there is one religion (or lack of religion for that matter) that is right with the others being wrong I will gladly listen.

I can show you a bunch that are wrong. Is that sufficient?