America - The Official Thread

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What amazes me the most is the border patrols compliance. Why would anyone enforce such a policy? If trump wants to play hardball play hardball back, as long as this policy is in place you coincidently stop finding any illegal border crossings... it's that simple as I can't find it in my heart to call these things that enforce this policy people.

Isn't there this qoute that says something about if a law is unjust it not only right to disobey it's you obligation.

Or an easy one all it takes for evil to prevail is for good man to do nothing.

Also I agree there are some.issues with illegal immigration but like you I disagree with Trumps continious blackmail. It's it only negotiationtactic and might work once or twice on a guy but the world gets it now so it's not really that strong of a tactic no more.
It's a difficult question, but I don't agree that it is the fault of the people who are tasked with controlling the US border. There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons why there should be a hard border and for controlling who is allowed to cross it and who isn't.

The main thing wrong with Trump's current policy is the fact that a direct result of it is that children are being forcibly separated from their parents - but even if that policy were reversed tomorrow, there would still be the issue of unaccompanied children for whom the US authorities assume responsibility and at least provide them with shelter and their basic needs - in that respect, the border forces do a very good job. Part of the problem is that so many refugees and immigrants have no documentation or proof that the children with them are actually theirs, and thus even without the policy of jailing parents separately, there is still the problem of what to do with the children who are left behind. But the current policy doesn't make enough allowance for the fact that children are being separated from their parents for the "Crime" of seeking asylum in the US via the incorrect method, and that the consequences of detaining children and parents separately could be severe - it is not even certain when or even how parents and children will be reunited after the parents are jailed or deported.

Sadly, however, the border forces have to deal with everyone - legitimate or not - and they can only do what they are legally allowed to do.
 
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Wow. Interesting that the US human rights record in the last couple decades isn't that great either.

I find it odd that the US (or someone in power) finds it in their interest to abandon the human rights council in support of Israel. I get that they're an ally, but Trump has recently thrown allies under the bus for far less. I feel like there's a lot we're not seeing here.
 
Wow. Interesting that the US human rights record in the last couple decades isn't that great either.

I find it odd that the US (or someone in power) finds it in their interest to abandon the human rights council in support of Israel. I get that they're an ally, but Trump has recently thrown allies under the bus for far less. I feel like there's a lot we're not seeing here.

Vice President Mike Pence tweeted a statement: "Today the US took a stand against some of the world's worst human rights violators by withdrawing from the United Nations Human Rights Council. By elevating and protecting human rights violators and engaging in smear campaigns against democratic nations, the UNHRC makes a mockery of itself, its members, and the mission it was founded on. For years, the UNHRC has engaged in ever more virulent anti-American, and anti-Israel invective and the days of U.S. participation are over."

I think it has more to do with the condemnation of these 'child prison camps' the Trump government has introduced and then refused to even acknowledge. To criticise the President and his policies is considered 'Anti-American'. This alone should be alarming to millions of Americans.
 
It's a difficult question, but I don't agree that it is the fault of the people who are tasked with controlling the US border. There are plenty of perfectly legitimate reasons why there should be a hard border and for controlling who is allowed to cross it and who isn't.

The main thing wrong with Trump's current policy is the fact that a direct result of it is that children are being forcibly separated from their parents - but even if that policy were reversed tomorrow, there would still be the issue of unaccompanied children for whom the US authorities assume responsibility and at least provide them with shelter and their basic needs - in that respect, the border forces do a very good job. Part of the problem is that so many refugees and immigrants have no documentation or proof that the children with them are actually theirs, and thus even without the policy of jailing parents separately, there is still the problem of what to do with the children who are left behind. But the current policy doesn't make enough allowance for the fact that children are being separated from their parents for the "Crime" of seeking asylum in the US via the incorrect method, and that the consequences of detaining children and parents separately could be severe - it is not even certain when or even how parents and children will be reunited after the parents are jailed or deported.

Sadly, however, the border forces have to deal with everyone - legitimate or not - and they can only do what they are legally allowed to do.

I didn't mean borderenforcement is unethical on it's own. I mean that the seperation of children and their presumed parents is.
Since trump uses this policy to hardball congress into a more strict imigrationpolicy I'd suggest borderpatrol plays the same game Trump does and tells trump borderpatrol is effectively non existant as long as he upholds the speration policy. When he reveses this policy you go back to enfoecing the border.

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I'm complicit in this practice and I find it hard to believe many others wouldn't have this issue.
 
I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I'm complicit in this practice and I find it hard to believe many others wouldn't have this issue.
Perusing the cesspit like comments section of The Hill's reports on this situation, it's easy to find people willing to perform the mental gymnastics necessary to convince themselves that the hardship of these desperate families is entirely the fault of migrant parents for refusing to stay in their :censored:hole countries, rather than having anything to do with the methods of enforcement used.

Presumably it's not hard to find a sufficient quantity of such-minded people to staff the border enforcement patrols who'd have no trouble sleeping through the desolate wails of abandoned children in cages.
 
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I'm not generally big on jumping on the godwins law bandwagon, but everytime i see trump in the headlines, i can't help it. Hopefully something good comes out of this mid term election cycle that offsets this administration's craziness.
 
Perusing the cesspit like comments section of The Hill's reports on this situation, it's easy to find people willing to perform the mental gymnastics necessary to convince themselves that the hardship of these desperate families is entirely the fault of migrant parents for refusing to stay in their :censored:hole countries, rather than having anything to do with the methods of enforcement used.

I can explain something about at least one way that it's done (and I can think of others), because I've gotten to know people who are capable of these kinds of mental gymnastics. Ready for it?

good-luck-quotes-15.jpg


How, you're asking me, does a little quote like this result in someone supporting a horrible policy of separating children from parents for, as @Touring Mars puts it, the crime of seeking asylum improperly? Because that's exactly how it works. You see, to someone who has this philosophy, that luck is the invisible hand of hard work, you get to take credit for everything that has ever happened in your life that is fortunate, and that includes something as simple as being born in a country you're willing to stay in. There are people who literally do not accept that anything that happens or has ever happened to anyone is the result of anything except their own doing. This allows you to turn a blind eye to everyone in need.

There's another level of this where people consolidate nations into their own individuals in their mind and decide that America as a whole is prosperous because of its hard work (which is mostly true, but also government) and that other nations are not prosperous because they are not working hard (which is mostly wrong, because government), and that all people within those nations share the blame for the state of those countries (which is kinda twice wrong).

So, honestly, the response that you may hear from some of this is "they should have worked harder to make a better life for themselves and not be in this position, they don't deserve to live here", which completely misunderstands the fact that America shares a border with one of the worst nations in existence today. It is exacerbated by the fact that Mexico creates little bubbles within itself to cater to American tourists who (take sometimes unknowingly significant risk to) visit that country on vacation and thereby create an impression of safety and prosperity in Mexico. How could anyone not be responsible for being destitute in a country with tourism dollars flowing and beautiful beaches and resorts?

Mexico is routinely toward the bottom of world rankings for safety, coming in safer than places like Afghanistan and Pakistan but not exactly way up the list. But Mexico is number one in the world at killing Americans.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/priceo...ountries-for-americans-to-visit/#21cc21e28a73

"Of the 1,356 killings that occurred abroad, 1,193 (88%) happened in the 25 countries listed above. And just one country, Mexico, accounted for 50% of those deaths."

That's of course due to the number of Americans the visit Mexico vs. other nations, but it's still very telling. Especially given that Americans tend to visit the safest parts.

Getting back to the quote, it's a misunderstanding of a different concept, which is that hard work can put you in a better position to take advantage of good luck. It's picking and choosing though really, because hard work can put you in a better position to handle bad luck too, and no luck. Hard work usually just improves your situation overall, and good luck can goes farther in good situations.
 
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I get that the US wants to limit illegal immigration, but I still don't think they are doing it correctly and it's starting to bite us. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I can see when it's the wrong answer.

Also, I really don't have a major problem with illegal immigrants. They keep prices low on fruits and vegetables since they'll work for significantly less. Same goes for things like landscaping, housekeeping services, etc. Illegal immigrants do many jobs Americans wouldn't want to do or would want (justifiably) more money to do it. I like paying $2 for a thing of blueberries instead of paying $8 for them.

As long as people come here to work, instead of mooch off of free handouts from the government, I'm good. Although, American citizens shouldn't mooch off the government either.
 
I get that the US wants to limit illegal immigration, but I still don't think they are doing it correctly and it's starting to bite us. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I can see when it's the wrong answer.

Also, I really don't have a major problem with illegal immigrants. They keep prices low on fruits and vegetables since they'll work for significantly less. Same goes for things like landscaping, housekeeping services, etc. Illegal immigrants do many jobs Americans wouldn't want to do or would want (justifiably) more money to do it. I like paying $2 for a thing of blueberries instead of paying $8 for them.

As long as people come here to work, instead of mooch off of free handouts from the government, I'm good. Although, American citizens shouldn't mooch off the government either.
Don't want people mooching of overly generous state benefits now do we
 
Don't want people mooching of overly generous state benefits now do we

I don't want people using government resources that ultimately come from my tax dollars. We have a huge problem of this in Utah among polygamists. Since polygamy is illegal, these "cults" end up being a bunch of "single mothers" who scam the government out of resources like food stamps, welfare, healthcare, etc. even though they have more than enough money to afford all of it. This hurts people who actually need legitimate help, although I still think charity is a better way of dealing with this than government handouts.

Remember, the government is inefficient and have loads of red tape involved. Running any welfare programs often end up costing a ton of money while providing little help to those who actually need it.
 
You see, to someone who has this philosophy, that luck is the invisible hand of hard work, you get to take credit for everything that has ever happened in your life that is fortunate, and that includes something as simple as being born in a country you're willing to stay in. There are people who literally do not accept that anything that happens or has ever happened to anyone is the result of anything except their own doing. This allows you to turn a blind eye to everyone in need.
Thanks for the explanation.

I guess the problem with this outlook is that it characterises the incarcerated illegal migrants as lazy rather than people who may have worked hard to get to where they are now, even if other people (or indeed the law) sees their efforts as misplaced.
 
I get that the US wants to limit illegal immigration, but I still don't think they are doing it correctly and it's starting to bite us. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I can see when it's the wrong answer.

Also, I really don't have a major problem with illegal immigrants. They keep prices low on fruits and vegetables since they'll work for significantly less. Same goes for things like landscaping, housekeeping services, etc. Illegal immigrants do many jobs Americans wouldn't want to do or would want (justifiably) more money to do it. I like paying $2 for a thing of blueberries instead of paying $8 for them.

As long as people come here to work, instead of mooch off of free handouts from the government, I'm good. Although, American citizens shouldn't mooch off the government either.
This is an extremely important point, as a large amount of the reason why undocumented migrants cross the border (putting aside the number that are seeking asylum) are doing so based on a demand fro such labour from within the US itself.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinio...f-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/
 
I guess the problem with this outlook is that it characterises illegal migrants as lazy rather than people who have worked hard, even if other people(or even the law) sees their efforts as misplaced.

I'm less concerned with the lazy part as I am with the part where they're responsible for their situation. What we are effectively telling these people is "go home and get murdered, you should have made Mexico a better place to live, you deserve your fate". Which is just wrong, it misunderstands Mexico. In many parts of mexico there's not even any point in trying to better your circumstances beyond a certain level, because whatever you make/have will just get stolen.

Interstate 10 runs along the US/Mexico boarder through the city of El Paso. On the Mexico side of the highway you have Juarez. On the US side of the highway you have El Paso.

Here's Juarez (I should not that I'm kindof intentionally picking the worst photos from Juarez to make my point, but you can't really make it look like El Paso)

130104082606-mexico-snow-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg


Here's El Paso

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81% of El Paso is hispanic. It's not that the people on one side of this freeway are lazy and the people on the other side work hard. They're the same people (quite literally, the US folks travel back and forth), many of them with families on either side of the highway/river. It's not that the culture or natural resources are particularly different either. The freeway and river split what would effectively be one city if not for the national border.

You make your house out of tin roof siding in Juarez because you don't want stuff to get stolen or broken. What's the point of owning a car on those roads? Where are you going anyway? It's rule of law in Juarez that's the problem (also infrastructure, but I'll point back to rule of law for that one too).

maxresdefault.jpg

Juarez-MX-City-Slums.jpg
 
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I'm less concerned with the lazy part as I am with the part where they're responsible for their situation. What we are effectively telling these people is "go home and get murdered, you should have made Mexico a better place to live, you deserve your fate". Which is just wrong, it misunderstands Mexico. In many parts of mexico there's not even any point in trying to better your circumstances beyond a certain level, because whatever you make/have will just get stolen.

Interstate 10 runs along the US/Mexico boarder through the city of El Paso. On the Mexico side of the highway you have Juarez. On the US side of the highway you have El Paso.

Here's Juarez

130104082606-mexico-snow-horizontal-large-gallery.jpg


Here's El Paso

340563-6.jpg



81% of El Paso is hispanic. It's not that the people on one side of this freeway are lazy and the people on the other side work hard. They're the same people (quite literally, the US folks travel back and forth), many of them with families on either side of the highway/river. It's not that the culture or natural resources are particularly different either. The freeway and river split what would effectively be one city if not for the national border.

You make your house out of tin roof siding in Juarez because you don't want stuff to get stolen or broken. What's the point of owning a car on those roads? Where are you going anyway? It's rule of law in Juarez that's the problem (also infrastructure, but I'll point back to rule of law for that one too).

2006_Ciudad_Juarez_Mexico_195124982.jpg
I think it’s also worth pointing out that America is a land of immigrants, advertises its self as the best democracy in the world and sells the ‘American Dream’ which is literally about immigrants going to America and becoming rich...
 
This blame the victim mindset certainly explains why people would even entertain the idea of presenting Mexico with the bill for the border wall as anything other than audacious to the point of insult.

I think it’s also worth pointing out that America is a land of immigrants, advertises its self as the best democracy in the world and sells the ‘American Dream’ which is literally about immigrants going to America and becoming rich...
The difference is supposed to be that all those other countries sent "their best people" while the Mexicans only sent rapists. :rolleyes:

Trump is asking countries to deliberately brain drain themselves of their brightest and best to justify US foreign aid dollars. Since countries aren't likely to do this, he can then get away with reducing the aid budget and scoring a big win amongst his current and potential supporter base.
 
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This is an extremely important point, as a large amount of the reason why undocumented migrants cross the border (putting aside the number that are seeking asylum) are doing so based on a demand fro such labour from within the US itself.

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Opinio...f-undocumented-immigrant-labor/2621477498203/
Although that article really supports the argument that migrants ought to be documented...

The 'ideal' worker

People who enter the United States without documents are usually motivated by profound economic need, a need that animates them to embark on a dangerous and uncertain journey. Poverty places them in a position of vulnerability that often proves to be an asset to their U.S. employers. Eager for employment, they often accept difficult, irregular and low-paying jobs they can do without being fluent in English.

The threat of deportation adds an additional layer of insecurity and vulnerability. Undocumented residents live in fear...
Clearly, people who are desperate to work are going to be pretty good employees and hence good for the economy - but at what cost? Clearly it is not a great deal for them, plus it also lowers the employment prospects and bargaining power of documented migrants in the process.
 
You can sugar coat it all you want. They did it on work/GOVERNMENT devices. They get NO privacy. What is so hard to understand? Why are you defending them so hard? Cause Trump?

The exact same report that told us all about the texts between them also concluded that they didn't act on the biases reflected in those texts. In other words, they still did their jobs correctly.

There's nothing here, unless you want to cherry-pick which parts of the report you believe, and which you don't. Which is actually doing more with your bias than they did with theirs.
 
I get that the US wants to limit illegal immigration, but I still don't think they are doing it correctly and it's starting to bite us. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but I can see when it's the wrong answer.

Also, I really don't have a major problem with illegal immigrants. They keep prices low on fruits and vegetables since they'll work for significantly less. Same goes for things like landscaping, housekeeping services, etc. Illegal immigrants do many jobs Americans wouldn't want to do or would want (justifiably) more money to do it. I like paying $2 for a thing of blueberries instead of paying $8 for them.

As long as people come here to work, instead of mooch off of free handouts from the government, I'm good. Although, American citizens shouldn't mooch off the government either.
2011-2018
171,000 illegal aliens, identified as illegal at the time of booking, booked into jail.
265,000 criminal charges.
Arrests for 495 homicides, 350 kidnappings, 33,637 drug charges, 3107 sexual assaults.
Convictions so far on 219 homicides, 1528 sexual assaults and 144 kidnappings among 110,000 convictions.

A further 10,218 individual were identified as illegal aliens while in prison
Over 3000 convictions so far.
58 murderers convicted.
337 sexual assault convictions.

These are just the people caught. Obviously if you are illegal and there's porous border across the street it's a lot easier to hide from the law.

Sounds pretty bad. By the way that's not for the entire U.S., that's just Texas.

Enjoy your blueberries.

  • These figures only count arrests in Texas for state offenses. These individuals may have criminal records in other states.
  • These figures only represent offenses and convictions that are associated with arrest events that occurred between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018.
  • The criminal activity for individuals identified as illegal while in prison is under represented for this time period because they may have been incarcerated during the time frame used in this report.
  • These figures do not count federal criminal charges.
 
2011-2018
171,000 illegal aliens, identified as illegal at the time of booking, booked into jail.
265,000 criminal charges.
Arrests for 495 homicides, 350 kidnappings, 33,637 drug charges, 3107 sexual assaults.
Convictions so far on 219 homicides, 1528 sexual assaults and 144 kidnappings among 110,000 convictions.

A further 10,218 individual were identified as illegal aliens while in prison
Over 3000 convictions so far.
58 murderers convicted.
337 sexual assault convictions.

These are just the people caught. Obviously if you are illegal and there's porous border across the street it's a lot easier to hide from the law.

Sounds pretty bad. By the way that's not for the entire U.S., that's just Texas.

Enjoy your blueberries.

  • These figures only count arrests in Texas for state offenses. These individuals may have criminal records in other states.
  • These figures only represent offenses and convictions that are associated with arrest events that occurred between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018.
  • The criminal activity for individuals identified as illegal while in prison is under represented for this time period because they may have been incarcerated during the time frame used in this report.
  • These figures do not count federal criminal charges.

Ok, so what is the total number of illegal migrants in Texas over that same period (or a close approximation)?

Edit: For the record I can't open that link, it just fails to connect
 
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2011-2018
171,000 illegal aliens, identified as illegal at the time of booking, booked into jail.
265,000 criminal charges.
Arrests for 495 homicides, 350 kidnappings, 33,637 drug charges, 3107 sexual assaults.
Convictions so far on 219 homicides, 1528 sexual assaults and 144 kidnappings among 110,000 convictions.

A further 10,218 individual were identified as illegal aliens while in prison
Over 3000 convictions so far.
58 murderers convicted.
337 sexual assault convictions.

These are just the people caught. Obviously if you are illegal and there's porous border across the street it's a lot easier to hide from the law.

Sounds pretty bad. By the way that's not for the entire U.S., that's just Texas.

Enjoy your blueberries.

  • These figures only count arrests in Texas for state offenses. These individuals may have criminal records in other states.
  • These figures only represent offenses and convictions that are associated with arrest events that occurred between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018.
  • The criminal activity for individuals identified as illegal while in prison is under represented for this time period because they may have been incarcerated during the time frame used in this report.
  • These figures do not count federal criminal charges.

Documenting them and letting them in actually makes it more difficult to commit a crime.
 
2011-2018
171,000 illegal aliens, identified as illegal at the time of booking, booked into jail.
265,000 criminal charges.
Arrests for 495 homicides, 350 kidnappings, 33,637 drug charges, 3107 sexual assaults.
Convictions so far on 219 homicides, 1528 sexual assaults and 144 kidnappings among 110,000 convictions.

A further 10,218 individual were identified as illegal aliens while in prison
Over 3000 convictions so far.
58 murderers convicted.
337 sexual assault convictions.

These are just the people caught. Obviously if you are illegal and there's porous border across the street it's a lot easier to hide from the law.

Sounds pretty bad. By the way that's not for the entire U.S., that's just Texas.

Enjoy your blueberries.

  • These figures only count arrests in Texas for state offenses. These individuals may have criminal records in other states.
  • These figures only represent offenses and convictions that are associated with arrest events that occurred between June 1, 2011 and May 31, 2018.
  • The criminal activity for individuals identified as illegal while in prison is under represented for this time period because they may have been incarcerated during the time frame used in this report.
  • These figures do not count federal criminal charges.

Yes, there will be criminals coming across the border, I don't deny that, but even legal immigrants commit crimes. Or better yet, even legal citizens born in the US commit crimes. In fact we could probably just reduce it down to humans commit crimes in society.

But given those numbers, 37,589 arrested were for those crimes. What about the other 212,411 criminal charges? Are they so minor they don't matter? Or is it simply because they're illegal immigrants? Based on those numbers it seems like a vast majority of illegals commit non-violent crimes, even more so when you get rid of the drug charges which are mostly non-violent anyway.
 
Ok, so what is the total number of illegal migrants in Texas over that same period (or a close approximation)?
Why would it matter? Hundreds of rapes, kidnappings and murders are completely preventable through the enforcement of the law at the border. The cost of that is paying more for your blueberries.

Documenting them and letting them in actually makes it more difficult to commit a crime.
Yes. Document them, sign them up, get them registered, collect taxes, bring them out from the shadows and into the light. Of course they won't be able to necessarily work for $30 a day and free lodging but that's the cost of doing things legally.
 
Why would it matter? Hundreds of rapes, kidnappings and murders are completely preventable through the enforcement of the law at the border. The cost of that is paying more for your blueberries.

It matters because if there are 220 million illegals entering Mexico, every year... then those numbers would be pretty damn good statistically, better than real home grown US citizens
 
Yes. Document them, sign them up, get them registered, collect taxes, bring them out from the shadows and into the light. Of course they won't be able to necessarily work for $30 a day and free lodging but that's the cost of doing things legally.

Yea, on the other hand, government handouts tend to require documentation. For example, they still won't pay taxes (because they won't make enough at first), but they'll qualify for handouts like the earned income tax credit. Keeping them undocumented makes it difficult for them to get handouts and easier for them to commit crimes. Documenting them will make it harder for them to commit crimes and easier for them to get handouts. I don't think their tax footprint changes.
 
171,000 illegal aliens, identified as illegal at the time of booking, booked into jail.
265,000 criminal charges.

Well, since each of the 171,000 would have been charged with illegal immigration, that's more than half of your total criminal charges right there. But 265,000 sounds scarier than 94,000, so I get why you did that.

Arrests for 495 homicides, 350 kidnappings, 33,637 drug charges, 3107 sexual assaults.

Not too concerned about arrest numbers; between confusion over identity (they're undocumented, after all), and at least a few cases of profiling here and there, there's probably many cases where they got the wrong guy. Not to mention that, as you like to point out in every discussion about alleged sexual assault, innocent until proven guilty.

Convictions so far on 219 homicides, 1528 sexual assaults and 144 kidnappings among 110,000 convictions.

While I know you'd like us to think that means that 219 of those individuals were murderers, I'm guessing that a smaller number of them committed multiple murders. Ditto with the other crimes.

Combine that with the fact that an estimated 1.5 to 2 million undocumented people live in Texas, well, that means that the vast majority of them aren't criminals.
 
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Ow yeah and you're seperating children from their parents. Think about that one being seperated from your parents no.mater what age you are.
Before you had plausible deniability but now, Nazi america here you come. How can you justify seperating children from their parents, considering when the parents get free they habe the right to search for their children. But the government shouldn't reunite them.

This is pure psychological torture.
Lot of upset people about this now. Curious why when there were articles or pictures talking about separation, our media wasn’t as upset as it is now.
4CA4BD01-997A-4DB3-9A39-BF7D3091BAEB.jpeg
 

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