America - The Official Thread

[Danoff]

Right. Somebody could very well choose to take a prescription pain killer. That choice could be informed, uninformed, it could be completely naive, it could be with the worst intentions possible. That's fine. That's a choice, at least sometimes. I don't think many people would be suspicious/critical of their doctor's recommendation/prescription. If somebody has pain, they will probably uncriticially take the medication their doctor prescribes, plausibly even unaware it even is an opioid So I'm still not fully onboard with your claim that even the initiation of taking opioids is a choice, at least not an informed one.

But to say that it's a choice to be addicted because of some abstract/philosophical notion of free choice is nonsense. Addiction is a biochemical reality.

Nobody comes home from the hospital addicted. You get addicted because you choose to continue to take the medication beyond the prescribed amount. Addiction is not something that occurs because of prescription*, it occurs because of abuse. However, it is still ultimately your choice (unless you were forcibly dosed) to take pain killers of any sort.

*My sister became physiologically addicted to a particular pain killer (not an opiod) while following prescribed dosage. Once this was realized by her doctor, they gave her a regimen to get off of it, and the addiction is over. No real harm done. She was having physical symptoms in response to a lack of the medicine, and followed the prescribed medical procedure for addressing the physical addiction. It was her choice to take the medicine, it resulted in addiction, and her choices resulted in the addiction being short lived and not particularly harmful.

I always flirt with physical addiction when I take affrin. But i don't take it beyond the prescribed 3 days, so I avoid physical addiction. The part where addiction becomes a problem is when it is being abused outside of what is medically appropriate.

Edit:

I also very much stand behind the fact that it is your right to choose to become addicted. Smoking is addictive, and it is a personal choice.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I always flirt with physical addiction when I take affrin. But i don't take it beyond the prescribed 3 days, so I avoid physical addiction. The part where addiction becomes a problem is when it is being abused outside of what is medically appropriate.
.

I'm right there with you! That sweet, sweet oxygen...

 

[Joey D]

Nobody comes home from the hospital addicted.

You'd be surprised. I've worked at enough backwoods hospitals in Michigan to know that you could very well come home an addict. They hand out pain pills like they're candy and it boggles my mind. I remember working at a family med clinic which was in a trailer of all places in some hick town in Northern Michigan. The provider was having trouble printing a script so I took a look at it. It was for 300 Norco for a 30 day supply. I can't take one Norco without being completely useless for like 6 hours. I can't imagine taking 10 a day. I'm not even sure the human liver can sustain that. Also, constipation would be absolutely brutal.

Major health systems in areas that aren't populated by rednecks are a bit different though. But working at some of those small clinics, I could see why the opioid crisis is so bad.

 

[Danoff]

You'd be surprised. I've worked at enough backwoods hospitals in Michigan to know that you could very well come home an addict. They hand out pain pills like they're candy and it boggles my mind. I remember working at a family med clinic which was in a trailer of all places in some hick town in Northern Michigan. The provider was having trouble printing a script so I took a look at it. It was for 300 Norco for a 30 day supply. I can't take one Norco without being completely useless for like 6 hours. I can't imagine taking 10 a day. I'm not even sure the human liver can sustain that. Also, constipation would be absolutely brutal.

Major health systems in areas that aren't populated by rednecks are a bit different though. But working at some of those small clinics, I could see why the opioid crisis is so bad.

And do you think that in these cases it was someone going in for treatment and coming home an addict? Or was it that people went home not addicted, with plenty of pain pills, took them too long/too many, eventually became an addict, went in for additional pain (because of the addiction) and got handed more?

How long do you have to stay in the hospital and what kind of irresponsible dosage at the hospital would it take for you to leave already addicted?

 

[Joey D]

And do you think that in these cases it was someone going in for treatment and coming home an addict? Or was it that people went home not addicted, with plenty of pain pills, took them too long/too many, eventually became an addict, went in for additional pain (because of the addiction) and got handed more?

How long do you have to stay in the hospital and what kind of irresponsible dosage at the hospital would it take for you to leave already addicted?

According to our hospital policy, we say a patient can become dependent on Norco in as little as 7 days at 6 tablets per day of 10/325mg dosage, so that's 60 mg of hydrocodone and 1,950mg of acetaminophen per day (RIP your liver). Stronger narcotics have even a smaller time range. I'm sure it differs depending on where you go, but Utah has one of the worse problems with opioid abuse in the nation...or at least that's what we are told.

I fully believe you could go into the hospital not an addict and come out an addict depending on how poorly the hospital operated and how long you stayed. I mean something as basic as a knee replace typically lands you in the hospital for 5 days without complications. I could definitely see someone staying 7-10 days if things didn't go smooth. If the nursing staff and docs just handed out pain pills whenever the patient asked, they could easily take enough to get addicted.

Of course, this all depends on how your body handles addiction though. I know I'm prone to addiction so I'd need to be in really rough shape to take anything stronger than ibuprofen.

 

[Danoff]

According to our hospital policy, we say a patient can become dependent on Norco in as little as 7 days at 6 tablets per day of 10/325mg dosage, so that's 60 mg of hydrocodone and 1,950mg of acetaminophen per day (RIP your liver). Stronger narcotics have even a smaller time range. I'm sure it differs depending on where you go, but Utah has one of the worse problems with opioid abuse in the nation...or at least that's what we are told.

I fully believe you could go into the hospital not an addict and come out an addict depending on how poorly the hospital operated and how long you stayed. I mean something as basic as a knee replace typically lands you in the hospital for 5 days without complications. I could definitely see someone staying 7-10 days if things didn't go smooth. If the nursing staff and docs just handed out pain pills whenever the patient asked, they could easily take enough to get addicted.

Of course, this all depends on how your body handles addiction though. I know I'm prone to addiction so I'd need to be in really rough shape to take anything stronger than ibuprofen.

Fair enough. I should have said nobody comes home addicted from a properly run hospital with a staff that is administering a proper medical dose consistent with positive overall long term health and recovery.

I still think it's your choice though. I'm a big fan of personal advocacy in the medical field, since everyone's body is different. You have to know yourself and push yourself medically rather than rely on others to get it right for you. Personally I've almost never needed the amount of pain killers that I've ever been prescribed (including for testicular biopsy). And I prefer it that way, because it enables me to dose myself according to my needs but also push myself to recovery with the minimum medication.

 

[TenEightyOne]

You have to know yourself and push yourself medically rather than rely on others to get it right for you.

The impression I've gained of you over my years at this forum is that you're extremely intelligent, you're well able to make a case for your own thoughts, you have a healthy mistrust of authority and you quickly gain a firm understanding of your own position on contentious or difficult issues.

I think it would be a mistake to think that everybody has those capabilities or that they can adequately exercise them in times of stress. There are many people who do rely on doctors to get it right for them, who do trust that medical training and white coat without question, and who are genuine victims of a prescription crisis.

 

[Danoff]

who do trust that medical training and white coat without question, and who are genuine victims of a prescription crisis.

Then they've made a mistake haven't they? At what point does it become their fault for not getting a second opinion? Never? At what point does it become their fault for not advocating for themselves, for handing over the responsibility of their well-being to someone who is doing a poor job of maintaining it? Is that something we want people to do? To abdicate their personal responsibility for their health to others who may or may not be competent or properly interested in maintaining it?

Doctors screw up. A lot. And patients need to understand that.

Edit:

To be clear, choosing to put your life in the hands of your doctor is still your choice.

 

[Joey D]

Fair enough. I should have said nobody comes home addicted from a properly run hospital with a staff that is administering a proper medical dose consistent with positive overall long term health and recovery.

I still think it's your choice though. I'm a big fan of personal advocacy in the medical field, since everyone's body is different. You have to know yourself and push yourself medically rather than rely on others to get it right for you. Personally I've almost never needed the amount of pain killers that I've ever been prescribed (including for testicular biopsy). And I prefer it that way, because it enables me to dose myself according to my needs but also push myself to recovery with the minimum medication.

Unfortunately, the number of poorly run hospitals is way too high. But the way laws are set up, they're allowed to exist since it's actually illegal to have too many hospital "beds" in a given geographical area. So if Hospital A is award-winning, with outstanding care, awesome doctors, and reasonable prices it can't expand if Hospital B, a horrible hospital with a bunch of Dr. Nicks, exists too. Hospital A can try to buy Hospital B and take its beds to use in its own system, but other health systems in a given geographical area can block the sale because of it being a monopoly.

So really, if you boil it all down, people get terrible care because of asinine laws. And to think, people want the government to be more involved in healthcare.

But, I do agree. It is your choice. People don't take enough of an interest in their health. They also just accept whatever the doctor says.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Then they've made a mistake haven't they? At what point does it become their fault for not getting a second opinion? Never? At what point does it become their fault for not advocating for themselves, for handing over the responsibility of their well-being to someone who is doing a poor job of maintaining it? Is that something we want people to do? To abdicate their personal responsibility for their health to others who may or may not be competent or properly interested in maintaining it?

Doctors screw up. A lot. And patients need to understand that.

Edit:

To be clear, choosing to put your life in the hands of your doctor is still your choice.

I think what teneighty is saying is that your standards for human behavior are quite high, probably well above what is achievable for most people. This might be a tangent discussion, but should "elites" (whatever that means) accommodate non-elites?

Unfortunately, the number of poorly run hospitals is way too high. But the way laws are set up, they're allowed to exist since it's actually illegal to have too many hospital "beds" in a given geographical area. So if Hospital A is award-winning, with outstanding care, awesome doctors, and reasonable prices it can't expand if Hospital B, a horrible hospital with a bunch of Dr. Nicks, exists too. Hospital A can try to buy Hospital B and take its beds to use in its own system, but other health systems in a given geographical area can block the sale because of it being a monopoly.

So really, if you boil it all down, people get terrible care because of asinine laws. And to think, people want the government to be more involved in healthcare.

But, I do agree. It is your choice. People don't take enough of an interest in their health. They also just accept whatever the doctor says.

This seems to be a recurring theme. Poorly considered/written laws that reinforce corporate/institutional incompetance. I still think the answer is better laws & better law-makers, rather than no laws/regulation.

 

[PocketZeven]

Nobody comes home from the hospital addicted. You get addicted because you choose to continue to take the medication beyond the prescribed amount. Addiction is not something that occurs because of prescription*, it occurs because of abuse. However, it is still ultimately your choice (unless you were forcibly dosed) to take pain killers of any sort.

*My sister became physiologically addicted to a particular pain killer (not an opiod) while following prescribed dosage. Once this was realized by her doctor, they gave her a regimen to get off of it, and the addiction is over. No real harm done. She was having physical symptoms in response to a lack of the medicine, and followed the prescribed medical procedure for addressing the physical addiction. It was her choice to take the medicine, it resulted in addiction, and her choices resulted in the addiction being short lived and not particularly harmful.

I always flirt with physical addiction when I take affrin. But i don't take it beyond the prescribed 3 days, so I avoid physical addiction. The part where addiction becomes a problem is when it is being abused outside of what is medically appropriate.

Edit:

I also very much stand behind the fact that it is your right to choose to become addicted. Smoking is addictive, and it is a personal choice.

Addiction is more complicated then simply choice though.

 

[Danoff]

Addiction is more complicated then simply choice though.

It's this sentiment that led me to create the addiction thread.

 

[DDastardly00]

Julian Assange arrested, trump distances himself, and remember "can't we just drone this guy" -Hillary Clinton

Love or hate the man, I don't care, this is an attack on the free press by Elitist power grubers who don't like the light of truth shined on their evil deeds. The death of transparency and freedom of the press happened on April 11, 2019, Pamela Anderson is right. And Theresa May, you are pathetic too "no one is above the law"- what a crock of you know what. Right, and we are supposed to believe that Theresa?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Bill Weld has just given me a reason to vote in the primaries. Here's for open primary states!

 

[Joey D]

I'm good with Weld, I know he's more Libertarian than anything so he's got my vote in the primaries at least.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm good with Weld, I know he's more Libertarian than anything so he's got my vote in the primaries at least.

I wouldn't mind a Bill Weld presidency. Just the kind of boring presidency I've been dreaming of.

 

[DDastardly00]

Reminds me of Kasich, in other words, he's level-headed with a strong leadership background, I would vote for him in a second. I would take Gary Johnson, John Hickenlooper or Bill Weld in heartbeat over Trump. Of course I would take a moldy ham sandwich over Trump.... Unfortunately I don't see anyone winning a primary against Trump.

I said two years ago here that it will be Biden Vs Trump. I've seen nothing since then to change my opinion.

 

[Danoff]

Denver schools are closed today due to this.

Some teenager hopped a flight to Denver and bought a gun (which is ridiculous) with the apparent intent to re-create columbine on the 20th anniversary. And this means I, and thousands of other people, can't go to work. Don't even know for how long.

Maybe 18 is too young to buy a gun huh? Or at least not without extensive review.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Denver schools are closed today due to this.

Some teenager hopped a flight to Denver and bought a gun (which is ridiculous) with the apparent intent to re-create columbine on the 20th anniversary. And this means I, and thousands of other people, can't go to work. Don't even know for how long.

Maybe 18 is too young to buy a gun huh? Or at least not without extensive review.

Apparently she killed herself?

What a messed up species we are.

 

[Danoff]

Apparently she killed herself?

500,000 kids were kept out of school yesterday. This was someone who was being watched by the FBI for participation in columbine related social media groups and who had expressed admiration for the shooters (partially by getting tattoos of them). They tracked her buying a one-way ticket to Denver and then... just kinda lost track? And then an 18 year old who was being watched by the FBI just walked in somewhere and bought a shotgun on the spot... unbelievable.

It's harder to buy beer in the US than it is to buy a shotgun if you're an 18 year old being tracked by the FBI over concerns for school shootings?!? Does it really make sense for people who are old enough to be still attending high school to be able to purchase their own gun? I'm supposed to send a 14-15 year old (and depending on the campus, maybe a 12 year old) to school with people who can legally buy firearms?

In schools that still allow kids to walk in through the front door with a gigantic backpack full of... presumably books?

How much sense does this make?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

500,000 kids were kept out of school yesterday. This was someone who was being watched by the FBI for participation in columbine related social media groups and who had expressed admiration for the shooters (partially by getting tattoos of them). They tracked her buying a one-way ticket to Denver and then... just kinda lost track? And then an 18 year old who was being watched by the FBI just walked in somewhere and bought a shotgun on the spot... unbelievable.

It's harder to buy beer in the US than it is to buy a shotgun if you're an 18 year old being tracked by the FBI over concerns for school shootings?!? Does it really make sense for people who are old enough to be still attending high school to be able to purchase their own gun? I'm supposed to send a 14-15 year old (and depending on the campus, maybe a 12 year old) to school with people who can legally buy firearms?

In schools that still allow kids to walk in through the front door with a gigantic backpack full of... presumably books?

How much sense does this make?

I would argue not a lot.

 

[DDastardly00]

,

Apparently she killed herself?

What a messed up species we are.

Better herself than others she may have targeted instead. But what's really sad in this country is the mental health epidemic that's not being adequately handled by our health care system. Clearly she was out of her mind, running around the woods, naked with a shotgun is not normal behavior.

 

[Rallywagon]

I am in agreeance with D here. The real issue is that, instead of authorities stepping in and helping this clearly disturbed individual get the psychiatric care they needed, they put her on a watch list and promptly stopped caring.

 

[TexRex]

Oops.

Among the many new details in the redacted version of Robert Mueller’s Russia report released Thursday: White House press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders had no basis for suggesting FBI officials had lost faith in then-director James Comey at the time of his firing, as she’d claimed.

...

In the Mueller report, however, Sanders said her comments were a “slip of the tongue.”

[“She also recalled that her statement in a separate press interview that rank-and-file FBI agents had lost confidence in Comey was a comment she made ‘in the heat of the moment’ that was not founded on anything.”]

...

“I’m sure that there are some people that are disappointed, but I’ve certainly heard from a large number of individuals,” she told reporters in the James S. Brady Press Briefing Room of the White House.

In a follow-up question, Michael Schear, White House correspondent for The New York Times, doubled down with a question about Sanders’ comment that she had “personally” talked to “countless FBI officials” after Trump fired Comey.

“Correct,” Sanders said.

“I mean, really?” Schear asked, amid crosstalk.

“Between like email, text messages. Absolutely,” Sanders interjected. “Look, we’re not going to get into a numbers game. I’ve heard from a large number of individuals that work at the FBI that said they’re very happy with the president’s decision.”

"Look, we're not going to get into a numbers game."

I mean, sure, zero is also a number...

...

...just not a particularly "large" one.

 

[Liquid]

Apparently Trump is quoted as saying about the report "This is the end of my presidency, I'm [REDACTED]"?

True?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

From the New York Times
When Jeff Sessions, then the attorney general, shared the news in the Oval Office, the president slumped in his chair. “Oh my God,” he said, according to the report. “This is terrible. This is the end of my presidency,” he said, adding an expletive.

Mr. Trump then became angry and blamed Mr. Sessions for recusing himself from the Russia investigation, something he would never forgive Mr. Sessions for.
“Everyone tells me if you get one of these independent counsels it ruins your presidency,” Mr. Trump reportedly said. “It takes years and years, and I won’t be able to do anything. This is the worst thing that ever happened to me.”

It seems to me he was more worried about not fulfilling his campaign promises.

Anyone still think he was worried about getting exposed of colluding with Putin? Anyone?

 

[BobK]

Anyone still think he was worried about getting exposed of colluding with Putin? Anyone?

Certainly. Everyone with TDS, and the Dems, of course.

 

[Rallywagon]

Well, I mean, full collusion, probably not, but he and his campaign team definitely knew what the Russains were up to and definitely used it to their advantage.
What is more worrisome for Trump, I think, is him trying to get those around him to obstruct justice and lie to investigators and his willingness to try and manipulate cabinet members to end the investigation.

 

[Dotini]

Well, I mean, full collusion, probably not, but he and his campaign team definitely knew what the Russains were up to and definitely used it to their advantage.
What is more worrisome for Trump, I think, is him trying to get those around him to obstruct justice and lie to investigators and his willingness to try and manipulate cabinet members to end the investigation.

All likely quite true. But his administration's advisors prevailed and he took their advice, ultimately "cooperated", so not actually committing any crimes even though he wanted to. Thought crimes. Likely any/every president has followed much same course. But the big question now, is what the Dems want to do? They have a choice of impeachment (further divisiveness) or trying win election in '20. Right now, Trump appears have the betting odds on his side.

 

[Rallywagon]

All likely quite true. But his administration's advisors prevailed and he took their advice, ultimately "cooperated", so not actually committing any crimes even though he wanted to. Thought crimes. Likely any/every president has followed much same course. But the big question now, is what the Dems want to do? They have a choice of impeachment (further divisiveness) or trying win election in '20. Right now, Trump appears have the betting odds on his side.

Pretty sure the only president to be in a similar situation resigned before he could be impeached. I also believe that there is a difference between thinking you would like someone to lie for you and telling someone to lie for you and then telling others to make that person lie for you when they don't do it for you. Not exactly a thought crime at the point it leaves your lips.