America - The Official Thread

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Are you asking me why I don't want to decrease in quality of life?

If you look at this diagram, increase in population density will have impact in many categories (housing, environment, infrastructure and for some it's income and jobs and personal security).

Are you suggested the United States is too densely populated?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

There is no reasonable justification for doing so. An individual represents no danger simply by being present. It's a law simply because it is a law.

There are lots of stupid laws.

Come on, you compare border laws to those stupid old laws? You just want open borders?

That is why Trump will win in 2020.

 

[mustafur]

Come on, you compare border laws to those stupid old laws? You just want open borders?

That is why Trump will win in 2020.

Your sniffing for things you want to hear but no one else is seeing it.

 

[TexRex]

And there is reasonable justification for immigration laws.

Thoroughly uncompelling argument.

Are you asking me why I don't want to decrease in quality of life?

If you look at this diagram, increase in population density will have impact in many categories (housing, environment, infrastructure and for some it's income and jobs and personal security).

That must be why there's a limit to the number of children one can have in this country. Oh, wait...

 

[Famine]

Come on, you compare border laws to those stupid old laws? You just want open borders?

There's a huge leap from the first question to the second one.

Laws are not always right. Laws are not always fair, just, appropriate, sane, or even moral. Laws can be changed, by majority vote. Lots of really, really stupid laws exist, and @TexRex listed some of them.

The purpose of doing so is to show that just because something is the law doesn't make it right. And just because someone has broken a law doesn't make them dangerous and awful. An illegal immigrant is, by definition, a criminal because they have broken a law about where on the planet they are allowed to stand (and apparently the southern border is an open field with no barriers, so they might do it accidentally...) - but they're a criminal in the sense of breaking immigration law, not in the sense of being a criminal who is actively dangerous to either society or individuals within it.

Of course their presence, depending on what they do - like look for cheap labour that no-one else wants to do - might impact on someone's livelihood, and that's bad, but there's a long walk from an undocumented mowing your lawn when a local US passport holder could have done it, to someone who is a dangerous criminal (and in fact a local US passport holder is more likely to do that).


Hiding behind "THE LAW" like it's a righteous shield of unimpeachable justice is foolish, and doesn't advance a discussion in any way. Which is the point, for the benefit of the user who was doing just that.

 

[novcze]

Thoroughly uncompelling argument.

It's a fact, either you belive the country should have control over immigration and therefore some immigration laws are needed or you propose open borders.

What is your position on this, I don't think you made it clear? ... well, I got anarchist vibe from this discussion with all this ignore stupid laws, but I'm asking to be sure.

Are you suggested the United States is too densely populated?

I was talking more from my European perspective.

 

[PocketZeven]

I was talking more from my European perspective.

I am from one of the most densely populated countries in the world. And I am an immigrant. What perspective are you speaking about?

 

[novcze]

I am from one of the most densely populated countries in the world. And I am an immigrant.

and? ... does it prove that your country can open borders and take in everyone without any impact on quality of life?

 

[Imari]

I'm not against legal immigration, but it should not decrease quality of life for citizens, absolute no go for me is increase in population density.

So you're totally against legal immigration then, because population density is the number of people per unit area, and it's literally impossible to add people (ie. immigration) to a finite area without increasing the population density.

 

[PocketZeven]

and? ... does it prove that your country can open borders and take in everyone without any impact on quality of life?

What impact does it have on you personally?

absolute no go for me is increase in population density.

What country do you live in, that is so overpopulated?

I am from the netherlands (pop 17 million) that has about 488 per km2. Quality of life is quite good here.

I also have lived in Beijing (pop. 21 million/ 6.000 per km2) and Shanghai (pop. 24 million/ 2000 /per km2) immensely populated, but quality of life is still quite good.

edit: Czech Republic has a pop. density of 138 per km2.

 

[Northstar]

Yes, they can repeal or change laws, that's better way instead of ignoring laws.

True, but by design the people that enforce laws do not make them, so their options are limited. They do this by using their discretion as to when it is appropriate to enforce said laws. You probably experience this on a regular basis, unless you never go over the speed limit of course.

 

[Dotini]

Yesterday the Supreme Court decided to permit a wealth and English-proficiency test for immigrants beginning Monday.
https://www.deseret.com/indepth/202...allow-trump-wealth-test-of-immigrants-for-now

 

[novcze]

So you're totally against legal immigration then, because population density is the number of people per unit area, and it's literally impossible to add people (ie. immigration) to a finite area without increasing the population density.

But argument for legal immigration is decrease in total population, so some legal immigration is possible.
If we ignore that environment would be better off with lower population that is.

I also have lived in Beijing (pop. 21 million/ 6.000 per km2) and Shanghai (pop. 24 million/ 2000 /per km2) immensely populated, but quality of life is still quite good.

your standards for "good quality of life" are probably different than mine or you are focused on fewer dimensions of it

True, but by design the people that enforce laws do not make them, so their options are limited. They do this by using their discretion as to when it is appropriate to enforce said laws. You probably experience this on a regular basis, unless you never go over the speed limit of course.

I'm not sure how we got from law makers who can repeal or change laws to law enforcing, but yes not all laws are enforced all the time.

btw. everytime I go over speed limit I'm expecting to be penalized for it if I get caught.

 

[PocketZeven]

B


your standards for "good quality of life" are probably different than mine or you are focused on fewer dimensions of it

So how does it effect you? You cant claim a higher population density will effect your "quality" of life without more explaining. How densily populated is the country or city you live in?

I live/have lived in densily populated area's and could suggest quality of life might be better then yours.

 

[Joey D]

Ok, so your economic gain are cheap blueberries in this example.

I mean sure, but our economy is already built on that. Changing it would end up impacting things negatively, which is why I think going after illegal immigrants is rather dumb. Say we deported all illegal immigrants and figured out some way to prevent all of them from coming here. Our economy would suffer, many things would be way more expensive, and there would be a worker shortage with no one willing to fill those positions. So it's not so much for economic gain as much as it is maintaining the economic status quo.

Yesterday the Supreme Court decided to permit a wealth and English-proficiency test for immigrants beginning Monday.
https://www.deseret.com/indepth/202...allow-trump-wealth-test-of-immigrants-for-now

Imagine if the US mandated an English proficiency test for its own citizens? The number of people who'd fail when asked the difference between "they're, there, and their" and "your and you're" would be astronomical.

 

[Northstar]

I'm not sure how we got from law makers who can repeal or change laws to law enforcing, but yes not all laws are enforced all the time.

You're not sure how we went from talking about laws... to talking about laws?

btw. everytime I go over speed limit I'm expecting to be penalized for it if I get caught.

And how often does that happen? I'm guessing there is an accepted range where you are where the police won't really bother you unless you are also driving erratically. It's called discretion, and if traffic cops can manage to do it, ICE can as well.

The number of people who'd fail when asked the difference between "they're, there, and their" and "your and you're" would be astronomical.

Going by what I have seen in comment sections (primarily YouTube), I don't even know if they would make it to that portion.

Granted my English is far from perfect, but anyone that thinks "be like" is acceptable needs to restart their schooling beginning at preschool.

 

[Danoff]

Are you asking me why I don't want to decrease in quality of life?

If you look at this diagram, increase in population density will have impact in many categories (housing, environment, infrastructure and for some it's income and jobs and personal security).

Wherever you live, it's a safe bet that population density is greater than it was 20 years ago. How is standard of living now compared to then?

 

[Liquid]

Wherever you live, it's a safe bet that population density is greater than it was 20 years ago. How is standard of living now compared to then?

In Czechia, as in Slovakia where I am, significantly better.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

But argument for legal immigration is decrease in total population, so some legal immigration is possible.
If we ignore that environment would be better off with lower population that is.



your standards for "good quality of life" are probably different than mine or you are focused on fewer dimensions of it



I'm not sure how we got from law makers who can repeal or change laws to law enforcing, but yes not all laws are enforced all the time.

btw. everytime I go over speed limit I'm expecting to be penalized for it if I get caught.

I gather your position, ultimately, is that there are too many people and there ought to be less people. Really productive that argument is.

Grow up.

 

[FerrariF1GT]

Yesterday the Supreme Court decided to permit a wealth and English-proficiency test for immigrants beginning Monday.
https://www.deseret.com/indepth/202...allow-trump-wealth-test-of-immigrants-for-now

There’s a reason why there isn’t an official language in the United States. This country, in the way the founding fathers conceived it, was meant to be a save haven from persecution regardless of language.

Making English the ‘official’ language, or any other language for that matter, isn’t right. Granted, there have been times in history where the US denied entry to immigrants because they couldn’t speak English, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay today.

 

[Imari]

I gather your position, ultimately, is that there are too many people and there ought to be less people. Really productive that argument is.

There's an easy solution to the problem of having too many people. A Final Solution.

 

[Dotini]

Trump administration to. ask Congress for emergency money to fight coronavirus, a big unknown with potential affects to national health, economy and elections.

The White House will soon ask Congress for emergency funds to fight the coronavirus outbreak, after weeks of hesitation by the administration to press for additional funding, said four individuals with knowledge of the pending request.

However, the amount could be significantly lower than some public health officials have argued is necessary — potentially as little as $1 billion

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/22/emergency-coronavirus-funding-116761

 

[novcze]

Wherever you live, it's a safe bet that population density is greater than it was 20 years ago. How is standard of living now compared to then?

I'm talking about quality of life, not standard of living. Material aspects are better, but some aspects of QoL are worse than 40 years ago (housing, infrastructure, environment, safety) and that is without major increase in population density (whole country +300k, city +8k). I don't think we can open borders and add unspecified number of people without solving contemporary problems first.

Or maybe I need to man up or something ...

And how often does that happen? I'm guessing there is an accepted range where you are where the police won't really bother you unless you are also driving erratically. It's called discretion, and if traffic cops can manage to do it, ICE can as well.

no discretion, you can go above speed limit by margin of measurement error of device they are using to measure speed and it doesn't matter if it is at 4AM or 4PM

I mean sure, but our economy is already built on that. Changing it would end up impacting things negatively, which is why I think going after illegal immigrants is rather dumb. Say we deported all illegal immigrants and figured out some way to prevent all of them from coming here. Our economy would suffer, many things would be way more expensive, and there would be a worker shortage with no one willing to fill those positions. So it's not so much for economic gain as much as it is maintaining the economic status quo.

I know, but don't you think that system built on cheap workforce of illegal workers is not exactly great one.

 

[mustafur]

Crime is down across the board in basically all western countries, despite record immigration though.

 

[Liquid]

I don't think we can open borders and add unspecified number of people without solving contemporary problems first.

You can close all borders and still have the same "population increase problem" you're mentioning.

Unless you implement sterilisation laws or one child policies buuuuut... I think those are self-explanitory.

 

[UKMikey]

Imagine if the US mandated an English proficiency test for its own citizens? The number of people who'd fail when asked the difference between "they're, there, and their" and "your and you're" would be astronomical.

I dunno about the US but "alot" of people would fail over here.

.

 

[Northstar]

no discretion, you can go above speed limit by margin of measurement error of device they are using to measure speed and it doesn't matter if it is at 4AM or 4PM

So police over there never issue warnings instead of actual penalties?

 

[PocketZeven]

I'm talking about quality of life, not standard of living. Material aspects are better, but some aspects of QoL are worse than 40 years ago (housing, infrastructure, environment, safety) and that is without major increase in population density (whole country +300k, city +8k). I don't think we can open borders and add unspecified number of people without solving contemporary problems first.

I call BS. Increase has little to do with the quality of life being "worse" then 40 years ago. Do you live in the czech republic? Then I am pretty sure you are much and much better QoL now then in the 1980's. (hint: communism)

Again, how does an increase in population effect you personally?

 

[novcze]

You can close all borders and still have the same "population increase problem" you're mentioning.

It does not happen, births are below replacement rate and people have housing problems (surplus demand).

So police over there never issue warnings instead of actual penalties?

not in the case of speeding, for lighter misdemeanor yes

Increase has little to do with the quality of life being "worse" then 40 years ago.

what did I wrote in the last post, some aspects are worse "without major increase in population density"

Again, how does an increase in population effect you personally?

More people more demand for everything, housing, infrastructure, environment which makes things worse for everyone.

 

[Northstar]

not in the case of speeding, for lighter misdemeanor yes

Thank you for proving my point that laws are not always black and white. I would also be willing to bet that police use discretion for speeding tickets there much like they do here in the U.S. (and probably everywhere else).

what did I wrote in the last post, some aspects are worse "without major increase in population density"

How are they worse? Just stating that they are worse means absolutely nothing.