America - The Official Thread

[Dotini]

What African Americans are owed at this point is a system that respects their rights.

The system of laws respects their rights. Most people do too. That is not near enough to address and change the problems of inequality and poverty, and I think you know that in your heart.

Money is not the problem. It is lack of justice and the will to achieve it that is the problem. I'm advising Donald Trump to open a dialogue with the American people on going forward with reparations. The sooner the better.

 

[Joey D]

The system of laws respects their rights. Most people do too. That is not near enough to address and change the problems of inequality and poverty, and I think you know that in your heart.

Money is not the problem. It is lack of justice and the will to achieve it that is the problem. I'm advising Donald Trump to open a dialogue with the American people on going forward with reparations. The sooner the better.

If there's inequality, rights aren't being respected. And money isn't going to fix that. You can throw money at a situation all day long and it's not going to change a thing if the root cause isn't addressed. What that root cause is will be a matter of debate, but people far smarter than I should be working on that.

And you really think Trump is going to have any meaningful conversation with the American people? If you believe that, then I have some oceanfront property in the America southwest you need to look at.

 

[MatskiMonk]

If there's inequality, rights aren't being respected

Dotini talks about inequality at the same time as poverty. I don't think he means equal rights, I think he means the gap between those at the top, the middle, and the bottom.

 

[Danoff]

40 acres and a mule were promised to all slaves by the US. This promise was not kept. But I believe it must now be kept, at least in spirit.

I guess we have to dig them up and hand them a mule.

 

[Dotini]

I guess we have to dig them up and hand them a mule.

You raise a good practical question. Obviously, in the 19th Century the US was largely agrarian, and the original promise of 40 acres and a mule was to settle blacks on their own arable farmland west of the Mississippi. Today, exactly that is a real problem to do. But a proportional valuation of property can be made. For instance, in lieu of 40 acres of farmland, a black family could be granted title to a smaller plot of developed land with a structure on it. Perhaps it could be the homesite in which they are currently living and paying a mortgage. In lieu of mule, they could receive a car or truck.

No justice, no peace.

 

[Joey D]

Dotini talks about inequality at the same time as poverty. I don't think he means equal rights, I think he means the gap between those at the top, the middle, and the bottom.

If there's inequality, their rights by the system of laws aren't being respected as he suggests.

 

[Danoff]

You raise a good practical question. Obviously, in the 19th Century the US was largely agrarian, and the original promise of 40 acres and a mule was to settle blacks on their own arable farmland west of the Mississippi. Today, exactly that is a real problem to do. But a proportional valuation of property can be made. For instance, in lieu of 40 acres of farmland, a black family could be granted title to a smaller plot of developed land with a structure on it. Perhaps it could be the homesite in which they are currently living and paying a mortgage. In lieu of mule, they could receive a car or truck.

No justice, no peace.

We've been through this. You can't pay reparations to "a black family" for someone who was harmed and is dead. You literally cannot pay these dead people. What you propose is to attempt to know how history would have unfolded over more than a century if circumstances were different. It is impossible, and immoral to attempt this kind of redistribution from a person who did not commit the crime to a person who was not the victim of the crime.

 

[DesertPenguin]

How can you say that the generations that followed slavery and all the oppression (that's still going on) are not also victims of the crime? It clearly has affected them as well so they're victims of it.

 

[Danoff]

How can you say that the generations that followed slavery and all the oppression (that's still going on) are not also victims of the crime? It clearly has affected them as well so they're victims of it.

They may be victims of other crimes... such as the crime that George Floyd was a victim of. But it is another crime. They are not the victims of not receiving a mule. To say otherwise is to attempt to know an alternative history across more than a century of events.

 

[DesertPenguin]

They are not the victims of not receiving a mule

Sorry if I didn't follow everything but victims of not receiving a mule? How about the victims of slavery and oppression? You wouldn't say that those things affected future generations? You're saying they only directly affected people at the time. That's completely ignoring the weight of the issue and how is transcends generations.

 

[McLaren]

The system of laws respects their rights. Most people do too. That is not near enough to address and change the problems of inequality and poverty, and I think you know that in your heart.

Money is not the problem. It is lack of justice and the will to achieve it that is the problem. I'm advising Donald Trump to open a dialogue with the American people on going forward with reparations. The sooner the better.

Lul. Robert Johnson is one of Trump's supporters & the one proposing that ridiculously high desire. If Trump isn't listening to him, he's not listening to anybody.

 

[Dotini]

ridiculously high desire.

$14 trillion distributed across the black population of America is not ridiculous at all. It's not measly but it's not excessive.

If Trump is the genius he thinks he is, he will propose reparations and win reelection in a landslide, taking Bernie people, blacks and everybody else who wants peace and justice. If Biden does this first, then he wins.

 

[Groundfish]

Inequity is a natural condition for all living things.
Further, to listen to the narrative here, one without knowledge might think think that all low income blacks in the USA are innocent law abiding moral humans.
If you believe that come over here and I will drop you off just about dusk in a bad area, then you can experience the ‘love’ for yourselves.
My father was raised in one of these areas.
You have a lot of educated idiots in the USA and abroad with zero common sense.
I get it, this thread is essentially the bash USA thread.
Reparations, lol 14 trillion lmao.

 

[Danoff]

Sorry if I didn't follow everything but victims of not receiving a mule? How about the victims of slavery and oppression? You wouldn't say that those things affected future generations? You're saying they only directly affected people at the time. That's completely ignoring the weight of the issue and how is transcends generations.

This has been covered at length, but it'll be faster for me to type it up again than to find it. The 40 acres and a mule was supposed to be reparations for slavery, and it was not given after Lincoln was assassinated. This is the crime that @Dotini specifically likes to hang his hat on for reparations, and it is what I was addressing above.

I'm not saying that people have not been affected by slavery. Hell I've been affected by past slavery in many ways. What I'm saying is that to understand how someone is a victim of slavery from over a century ago, you'd need to figure out an alternative timeline, which is impossible.

The assumption that an ex-slave would have profited off of their mule and 40 acres for example requires knowing how they'd have profited, and whether. And it requires knowing what they'd have done with those profits. You might want to map 40 acres and a mule forward through a century of time to some descendant, but perhaps that ex-slave wouldn't have handed down their property. Perhaps they'd have donated it all to charity. Maybe that value belongs in the hands of a history museum, or a charity, or with a mistress...

Or maybe much of it would have been squandered in 1964 by a poor business venture.

The people who suffered under slavery are dead. The people who made them suffer are dead. I cannot inherit my parents' sins, and no one at this point can be said to inherit their great great great grandparents' promised mule.

 

[DesertPenguin]

I'm not saying that people have not been affected by slavery. Hell I've been affected by past slavery in many ways. What I'm saying is that to understand how someone is a victim of slavery from over a century ago, you'd need to figure out an alternative timeline, which is impossible.

I guess I just see the words differently. To me, if you are are affected by slavery you are a victim of it. Not here to argue, but that's how I feel about it. They certainly deserve something, that's for sure.

 

[TexRex]

They're going to beat your estimate by about 10 months:
Senate Republicans Set Summer Of Investigations Involving Biden

What an absolutely insane waste of time, money, and effort when the country has two major crisis going on.

*gasp*

Shocking!

"We're in the middle of the worst public health and economic crisis in a century, and what is Senator Johnson focused on? Running a political errand for Donald Trump by wasting Homeland Security Committee time and resources attempting to resurrect a craven, previously-debunked smear against Vice President Biden."

 

[Danoff]

I guess I just see the words differently. To me, if you are are affected by slavery you are a victim of it. Not here to argue, but that's how I feel about it. They certainly deserve something, that's for sure.

...they deserve what... and from where?

It is not clear to me that anyone deserves anything based on the crimes of people over 100 years ago simply based on their skin color today.

 

[UKMikey]

Robert Johnson is one of Trump's supporters

Now I really suspect his motives in coming forward with such a figure.

You have a lot of educated idiots in the USA and abroad with zero common sense.
I get it, this thread is essentially the bash USA thread.

I see a lot of bashing but not towards the USA. I suspect Johnson has set himself up as a lightning rod for this kind of criticism.

 

[Dotini]

The issue is whether or not we want (lack) peace and justice. When we want what we don't have, we must pay a price to get it. I'm willing. Perhaps you are not.

 

[Danoff]

The issue is whether or not we want peace and justice. When we want what we don't have, we must pay a price to get it.

Of course we all want peace and justice. We're entitled to that based on human rights.

Let me make this as clear as I can. Seizing the property of innocent people for a crime they did not commit, and handing it to people who were not victims of that crime, simply because their skin color is of a particular flavor is not peace and justice. It is immoral, racist, wrong, injustice, and even violent, and what it will net you is more of the same.

 

[Dotini]

Seizing the property of innocent people

How did you get this funny idea?

 

[Groundfish]

I suspect Johnson has set himself up as a lightning rod for this kind of criticism

Yeah, I haven’t followed him much but it sure seems he’s very unpopular.
Apparently he wants to change the citizenship requirements to bring people in from HK?
Gosh why wouldn’t folks love more immigration and diversity leading to more competition in the job market?
GB should open its borders, provide flights inbound from whoever wishes to come there from all over right?
Lol a large part of my ancestry came from England.
As an American I’ll tell ya, if you show me an average looking American woman, put her next to an average English woman, and both speak, it’s no contest which is more attractive and it’s not even close.
It’s really awesome to run across them here, so refreshing, it sounds so excellent.
I’ve worked with some Brits here hand in hand, who were here with work visas or whatever, to a man they were high quality individuals, excellent conversations!
I do think tho that this thread does provide a lot of humor, listening to various people’s take on the reality here.

 

[Danoff]

How did you get this funny idea?

It is what "reparations" is.

 

[UKMikey]

Yeah, I haven’t followed him much but it sure seems he’s very unpopular.
Apparently he wants to change the citizenship requirements to bring people in from HK?
Gosh why wouldn’t folks love more immigration and diversity leading to more competition in the job market?
GB should open its borders, provide flights inbound from whoever wishes to come there from all over right?
Lol a large part of my ancestry came from England.

Not that Johnson. The one who wants the trillions.

I'm not an English person by the way, I'm one of those diverse immigrants or at least my parents were. Wait, I wasn't born in the UK either.

 

[Dotini]

I repeat, do we have peace and justice? No. Do we want to have what we lack? Supposedly yes, but really no. We don't want to make the effort necessary. Peel me a grape, Beulah.

 

[UKMikey]

I repeat, do we have peace and justice? No. Do we want to have what we lack? Supposedly yes, but really no. We don't want to make the effort necessary. Peel me a grape, Beulah.

Saying people don't want peace and justice is quite the accusation. Perhaps people agree on the destination but not on the suggested route to get there. CDS?

 

[Danoff]

We don't want to make the effort necessary.

You have not remotely established any part of this. That's the effort lacking here.

 

[McLaren]

$14 trillion distributed across the black population of America is not ridiculous at all. It's not measly but it's not excessive.

According to Wiki, there are 41 million African Americans. Dividing up $14 trillion comes out to around $340,000/person. That is excessive.

Nor once again, does it automatically fix current issues.

If Trump is the genius he thinks he is, he will propose reparations and win reelection in a landslide, taking Bernie people, blacks and everybody else who wants peace and justice. If Biden does this first, then he wins.

As Joey asked, where is that money coming from? You'd be asking taxpayers to foot a $14 trillion reparation bill to 12.7% of the population, and hoping that solves everything. That kind of acceptance is banking not only on nearly 90% of the population being completely fine with that decision, but also accepting that 1 race is now, as individuals, in a wealth bracket near the 1%'s $515,000.

Considering this country has a large, vocal concern over racism as it already is, as well as concerns over wealth gaps, I don't think that much money in reparations accomplishes anything. I sadly believe it'd breed more hate & divisiveness molded in jealousy of others.

 

[Dotini]

According to Wiki, there are 41 million African Americans. Dividing up $14 trillion comes out to around $340,000/person. That is excessive.

Nor once again, does it automatically fix current issues.

As Joey asked, where is that money coming from? You'd be asking taxpayers to foot a $14 trillion reparation bill to 12.7% of the population, and hoping that solves everything. That kind of acceptance is banking not only on nearly 90% of the population being completely fine with that decision, but also accepting that 1 race is now, as individuals, in a wealth bracket near the 1%'s $515,000.

Considering this country has a large, vocal concern over racism as it already is, as well as concerns over wealth gaps, I don't think that much money in reparations accomplishes anything. I sadly believe it'd breed more hate & divisiveness molded in jealousy of others.

I have presented a plan for peace and justice. No one else here has done that.

 

[Danoff]

I have presented a plan for peace and justice. No one else here has done that.

What you have presented is a plan to commit injustice.