America - The Official Thread
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McLaren
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You may be the only one in the room sharing plans, but that doesn't mean it gets to be accepted.
Your notion that Trump would win easily because of that, you're forgetting how tarnished his reputation is. For as many black Americans that would likely accept it, others would merely see him trying to buy their votes & take it as insult. Whether or not that's a justified feeling, it speaks more to just how much they do not trust him, esp. after what has happened in the last week. We'll ignore in the meantime, just how much it will piss off his main supporters.
Dotini
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Most definitely, the English and others for thousands of years dealt in slavery. But we are the ones who made the promise, enforced by war, to end slavery, and to make sure there was a plan for blacks to succeed here in America. That plan was 40 acres and a mule. But we lied. Now we are faced with ingrained injustice, ingrained poverty and ingrained violence, and now we need reparations. To repair what we did wrong. Whether it is monetary or property or both, that is for the blacks and the federal government to work out. It. Must. Be. Done.
The man who solves the riddle of peace and justice will be a hero for a thousand years. Maybe that man is me. Maybe not. But it surely won't be the guy who can only say No! No! No!
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Dotini what of the Irish? What of the Native American tribes? These 2 groups (among many other) have had racism, injustice, hate thrown at them for centuries. Do they get a big fat check as well?
I cannot get behind that idea at all.
Money won’t change inequality, hate and fear.
I don’t pretend to have the answer but I think massive reforms at state and federal levels is a good starting point rather than blindly throwing trillions at the issue in hope it solves everything.
I cannot get behind that idea at all.
Money won’t change inequality, hate and fear.
I don’t pretend to have the answer but I think massive reforms at state and federal levels is a good starting point rather than blindly throwing trillions at the issue in hope it solves everything.
Dotini
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The people living today are living with the consequences of what came before. Only the living can correct the wrongs of the past. Should I count you as dead?
Thank you for your excellent question.
I know little of the Irish. But I have spent thousands of hours in North and South American indigenous areas. I have my views on these issues as well. Suffice to say for the moment that injustices clearly exists, but currently cities are not burning because of them.
Does money solve problems? Money is fungible - it can be exchanged for many things. But money and property cannot buy off racism, hate and fear. But money and property is way better than poverty, homelessness, joblessness, and hopelessness.
We cannot push a button and end hate, fear and racism. But we can push a button and make the victims more whole in terms of economic health.
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DesertPenguin
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Danoff
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No one can correct the wrongs of the past. It literally requires time travel. The people living today are living with the consequences of all that came before.
I do not accept guilt for slavery. I had no part in it, and I will take no part of it. I don't know if I had slave-holding ancestors and I don't care, their actions are not mine. I will accept zero responsibility for people that are not me 100 years ago. I do not care if I share some genetics with those people (genetic similarities to ancestors from that long ago are indistinguishable from background noise).
Similarly, there is no person alive today who was held as a slave from the civil-war era. And they are not entitled to that which their ancestors may have been entitled to - regardless of any genetic similarity (and there is little from across that many generations).
We've been over this. Our previous conversation was here.
Dotini
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No, it is not okay. But is not an acute existential emergency at the moment like the other issue is.
I think I am the only person addressing the critical issues in a way that proposes a clear plan for a positive outcome.
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Groundfish
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The ideology is the true problem in America, the ideology, the language, the thinking, or lack thereof.
The more the ideology changes from ‘created equal’ to ‘all people should exist in an equal level economically’ the more division and hatred grows...The more discontent spreads. It stems from poor thinking.
For example take the word justice. Take it as it is being used here. Justice as espoused here is taking from one and giving to another. That’s not justice that’s theft essentially.
True justice in America would be investment in education. True justice would be equipping people with necessary skills and knowledge not giving them money. Might be crass but what are you gonna do give poor folks money then invest in alcohol and tobacco so you take it right back? Yes that’s crass, but hardly wholly untrue.
The govt here for a long time now has actively worked to destroy jobs. Look what Clinton did closing large shipyards, shipping industry overseas, America was for sale and he did it all the while lining his pockets and ruining communities of folks who worked at some of these shipyards.
Further a lot of that equipment was sold for pennies on the dollar at auction and shipped overseas.
Imo there hasn’t been any REAL desire to create a self sustaining economy here for a looong time. Certainly no effort to bring socioeconomically disadvantaged areas hope with education and opportunity.
Lack of investment and concern with education and reliance on creating a huge consumer culture has resulted in what we see now. Things are messed up.
Imo it seems like at some level they want a large population of consumers. Guess what? Uneducated consumers with little capacity for independent thought believe and do what they are told.
It’s the thinking that needs to change, the ideology. Gathering in the streets and yelling and burning buildings and screaming racism really has no effect and will change nothing at the root.
Blaming the police is like a dog chasing it’s tail.
Or maybe blaming the messenger...
I fear for the future of the USA. It has many telltale signs of an empire before collapse...You got military spread out all over the world, widening gap rich from poor, foreign special interests buying political influence...Its bad...
I seriously question if things are past the point of no return when half the country is supporting Joe Biden. 1969 Dartmouth silver spoon white privileged lawyer who has existed in govt for very many years accomplishing little. He’s the one percent.
Cushy existence his entire life completely disconnected from reality and his son Hunter if black would probably be in prison right now on drug charges. Yes it’s coincidental that with no qualifications he got put on the board of a company in Europe that daddy was in control of sending US tax dollars to as gifts...
Giving people money is NOT giving them CAPABILITY that’s why the ideas about reparations are so idiotic imo.
In order to move forward in the USA we need to look beyond and deeper, but honestly seems like a large majority of masses are incapable of that.
If you educate people they can produce, uneducated people are just a drain.
Large corporate and govt interests here don’t seem to want that AT ALL. They fear that because people might begin to see the corruption. Super rich people like Biden have been part of the problem a long long time and to me are a big argument for term limits if nothing else.
But it’s likely he will get voted in under the guise of humanitarianism or some crap.
If people would open their eyes they’d maybe see past the onion skin so to speak and get to the root of the problem.
Giving people money doesn’t solve anything.
Give people capability. Give them self sufficiency and opportunity.
Again it goes to show how flawed people’s ideology is when they espouse gifting money as an answer to anything.
It’s the thinking. That’s what needs to happen imo.
But mostly what actually happens is a flawed ideology that perpetuates stupidity and division just gets more and more followers.
More and more people become hopelessly divided ideologically.
It’s sad. It bothers me.
Forgive me for the rant, but it is my opinion only.
The more the ideology changes from ‘created equal’ to ‘all people should exist in an equal level economically’ the more division and hatred grows...The more discontent spreads. It stems from poor thinking.
For example take the word justice. Take it as it is being used here. Justice as espoused here is taking from one and giving to another. That’s not justice that’s theft essentially.
True justice in America would be investment in education. True justice would be equipping people with necessary skills and knowledge not giving them money. Might be crass but what are you gonna do give poor folks money then invest in alcohol and tobacco so you take it right back? Yes that’s crass, but hardly wholly untrue.
The govt here for a long time now has actively worked to destroy jobs. Look what Clinton did closing large shipyards, shipping industry overseas, America was for sale and he did it all the while lining his pockets and ruining communities of folks who worked at some of these shipyards.
Further a lot of that equipment was sold for pennies on the dollar at auction and shipped overseas.
Imo there hasn’t been any REAL desire to create a self sustaining economy here for a looong time. Certainly no effort to bring socioeconomically disadvantaged areas hope with education and opportunity.
Lack of investment and concern with education and reliance on creating a huge consumer culture has resulted in what we see now. Things are messed up.
Imo it seems like at some level they want a large population of consumers. Guess what? Uneducated consumers with little capacity for independent thought believe and do what they are told.
It’s the thinking that needs to change, the ideology. Gathering in the streets and yelling and burning buildings and screaming racism really has no effect and will change nothing at the root.
Blaming the police is like a dog chasing it’s tail.
Or maybe blaming the messenger...
I fear for the future of the USA. It has many telltale signs of an empire before collapse...You got military spread out all over the world, widening gap rich from poor, foreign special interests buying political influence...Its bad...
I seriously question if things are past the point of no return when half the country is supporting Joe Biden. 1969 Dartmouth silver spoon white privileged lawyer who has existed in govt for very many years accomplishing little. He’s the one percent.
Cushy existence his entire life completely disconnected from reality and his son Hunter if black would probably be in prison right now on drug charges. Yes it’s coincidental that with no qualifications he got put on the board of a company in Europe that daddy was in control of sending US tax dollars to as gifts...
Giving people money is NOT giving them CAPABILITY that’s why the ideas about reparations are so idiotic imo.
In order to move forward in the USA we need to look beyond and deeper, but honestly seems like a large majority of masses are incapable of that.
If you educate people they can produce, uneducated people are just a drain.
Large corporate and govt interests here don’t seem to want that AT ALL. They fear that because people might begin to see the corruption. Super rich people like Biden have been part of the problem a long long time and to me are a big argument for term limits if nothing else.
But it’s likely he will get voted in under the guise of humanitarianism or some crap.
If people would open their eyes they’d maybe see past the onion skin so to speak and get to the root of the problem.
Giving people money doesn’t solve anything.
Give people capability. Give them self sufficiency and opportunity.
Again it goes to show how flawed people’s ideology is when they espouse gifting money as an answer to anything.
It’s the thinking. That’s what needs to happen imo.
But mostly what actually happens is a flawed ideology that perpetuates stupidity and division just gets more and more followers.
More and more people become hopelessly divided ideologically.
It’s sad. It bothers me.
Forgive me for the rant, but it is my opinion only.
DesertPenguin
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Here's a plan
Groundfish
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Didn’t Biden say if you don’t vote for him you’re not black?
Sounds like the Bulworth movie
Funny how flawed it all is isn’t it?
The party that says they are pro working folks puts up the epitome of privilege to try to elect.
Pretty much isn’t Biden what most on the left despise?
Makes no sense imo
Sounds like the Bulworth movie
Funny how flawed it all is isn’t it?
The party that says they are pro working folks puts up the epitome of privilege to try to elect.
Pretty much isn’t Biden what most on the left despise?
Makes no sense imo
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Joey D
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Your plan isn't clear though and has holes in it that you could drive a truck through.
First off, where would the money for reparations come from? If it comes from taxes, that's a massive redistribution of wealth that equates to theft. You, or rather the federal government, are taking money from me, who had no involvement in slavery, nor my family, and giving it to someone else. If it's just going to be printed, then holy inflation.
Second, if you're going to give out land, where does that land come from? Federal land isn't exactly where most people want to live. Utah is something like 80% federal land and it's mostly just dry and desolate wasteland.
Third, how would you determine who gets it? If it's based on the color of your skin, that essentially gives some people from the Caribbean, Central, and South America the ability to claim reparations. It would also cancel out anyone from North Africa since North Africans skin color is rarely "black". If it's based on whether you're an African American or not, that also doesn't work. I used to work with a guy who was, quite literally an African American. He was whiter than me and from Zimbabwe. Hell, Elon Musk is an African American.
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DesertPenguin
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Yes. It's just another reason I won't vote for him. As it happens, I'm actually not black.
Mind you I'm not not voting for Biden because he may or may not be racist. I'm not voting for him because replacing someone who has demonstrated a propensity to say stupid things with someone who has demonstrated a propensity to say stupid things is insanity.
Odd that you'd bring up the GOP ca. 2016 as part of your inane, anti-Biden diatribe.
Oh, wait...you're probably talking about the Democratic party.
Odd that you'd make such an argument with the GOP ca. 2016--the giant, ****-eating elephant that it is--in the room.
ROAD_DOGG33J
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James Miller resigns
Pentagon chief on shaky ground with White House after breaking with Trump over protest response
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html
How long until Trump starts firing again.
Pentagon chief on shaky ground with White House after breaking with Trump over protest response
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html
How long until Trump starts firing again.
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- TexRex72
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And destroy Americas economy with 1 signature... That bill is over half of our Nations existing debt! Not to mention have a crap load of other things in the bill that have nothing to do with reparations.
I don't owe anyone, anything. As a few people pointed out not every white person was around during slavery. Now my grandparents(fathers side) did move to the South during Jim Crow, but didn't support it. Hell, Forsyth County here in GA still has a little rural road literally named 'Jim Crow Rd'. I gotta look through my pictures back when I was driving trucks, but I know I have a picture of it.
Edit: Found it, having trouble uploading through my phone...
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It's as if Trump isn't actually a conservative. At least not as it relates to governance or taxation and federal spending. It's obvious he's socially conservative.
How could it not work out for him? The above describes today's Republican party perfectly. There is no air between Trump and the GOP.
How could it not work out for him? The above describes today's Republican party perfectly. There is no air between Trump and the GOP.
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Found it. Flowery Branch isn't exactly small. Part of it is in Forsyth. Probably forgot exactly where...Hall County, but close enough.
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I don't disagree with the thrust of your post. I just want to tell you that the legal institution of slavery, for which reparations are proposed, ended just shy of 154 years ago. June 14th will mark the 154th year.
However, the widespread discrimination of black Americans that led to the Civil Rights Movement isn't so far removed from us today, and there are countless individuals still alive who experienced it.
Perhaps it's the latter you're thinking of when you say "not every white person was around"? Your point, and the point of numerous others here, remains, even if reparations are to be for the latter.
Edit:
Purely as a thought exercise, I'd be interested to know how you feel about that. To your mind, should the street name remain or is it subject to change? Why do you feel that way?
Feel free to respond in your own time, should you choose to do so. There's no timer on it.
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As a barometer for Trump support...I think ryzno's post here refutes the idea that reparations would be a political win for Trump. I think it would be a complete disaster for Trump - and I'm not really sure why you think otherwise....
Trump currently is a politician, so all he has to do is promise the reparations, get re-elected and never mention it again.
