America - The Official Thread

[DesertPenguin]

Why does he even bother posting anymore? I get that you're allowed your opinion but when you constantly go up against other people like this you're only making yourself look worse.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

It’s got more to do with what this man said imo.
Use of military force (deadly force) is last resort when all other options have failed.
Contrary to the current policy yes, but that’s not how it should be. Further...politics...military industrial complex...etc...There’s a lot of complexities when it comes to the military we don’t know about.
View attachment 927274

This is an intellectual perspective on military service. Donald Trump cares about the military only as far as it makes him look like a tough guy. The tough guy mantra isn't really compatible with intellectual thought. I know a few career military folks and they are largely very moral people, from my experience and your quote there probably resonates with them. I can't see how many career military people can support DT who has really bastardized the honorable part of military service - which isn't to say there are probably loads of yahoo enlisted men who just want to blow **** up that love DT...

 

[Rallywagon]

This is an intellectual perspective on military service. Donald Trump cares about the military only as far as it makes him look like a tough guy. The tough guy mantra isn't really compatible with intellectual thought. I know a few career military folks and they are largely very moral people, from my experience and your quote there probably resonates with them. I can't see how many career military people can support DT who has really bastardized the honorable part of military service - which isn't to say there are probably loads of yahoo enlisted men who just want to blow **** up that love DT...

Unfortunately that last part isn't fully correct. Soldiers are also human, no different from the rest. Some people want to blow **** up, some people just stick to their party line because that's their side. And since trump is currently "republican" he's there guy. I asked a fellow veteran buddy of mine how he looks past these sorts of statements, like bashing McCain, and it was like their brain didn't even register the fact I had asked.

 

[Groundfish]

p, some people just stick to their party line because that's their side.

Yes, that’s a huge problem. Parroting the party line is intellectual laziness and requires zero thought. People do that because excercising their mind is work.

 

[andrea]

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes, that’s a huge problem. Parroting the party line is intellectual laziness and requires zero thought. People do that because excercising their mind is work.

It's also how political parties and whips work. You want the good jobs, you tread the right line.

 

[Groundfish]

It's also how political parties and whips work. You want the good jobs, you tread the right line.

Right which is horse manure cuz almost of it is not a true effort to improve society imo.

 

[andrea]

 

[Stotty]

This article explores why people follow someone that conflicts with their base morals pretty well. It’s quite long, but a great read...

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/07/trumps-collaborators/612250/

 

[Dotini]

Your plan isn't clear though and has holes in it that you could drive a truck through.

First off, where would the money for reparations come from? If it comes from taxes, that's a massive redistribution of wealth that equates to theft. You, or rather the federal government, are taking money from me, who had no involvement in slavery, nor my family, and giving it to someone else. If it's just going to be printed, then holy inflation.

Second, if you're going to give out land, where does that land come from? Federal land isn't exactly where most people want to live. Utah is something like 80% federal land and it's mostly just dry and desolate wasteland.

Third, how would you determine who gets it? If it's based on the color of your skin, that essentially gives some people from the Caribbean, Central, and South America the ability to claim reparations. It would also cancel out anyone from North Africa since North Africans skin color is rarely "black". If it's based on whether you're an African American or not, that also doesn't work. I used to work with a guy who was, quite literally an African American. He was whiter than me and from Zimbabwe. Hell, Elon Musk is an African American.

#1. The money. The money would be created by the Fed. It would be the government owing money to the Fed when it comes to repayment. The government continuously floats a debt, borrowing new funds as it repays debts coming due. Negative interest rates would be employed to take advantage of money that is not moving fast enough.
#2. The land. The land would largely be land already occupied but unowned by the black tenant. If it is a home under mortgage, the government would pay off the mortgage granting title to the homeowner. If the land is a condominium or apartment, same thing. The government buys the property and transfers it to the person.
#3. Neither I nor the government would determine who gets it. The black people would make that decision for themselves. All black US citizens wherever they are from would share in the reparation of $370,000 each. The land/property would be granted to the descendants of the slaves who were owed the land in the first place.

Affirmation: I truly believe this plan is justified since it was promised in the first place, and is necessary in order to do something real about ingrained injustice. Preening about in virtue signaling is an empty and futile gesture.

 

[Northstar]

#1. The money. The money would be created by the Fed. It would be the government owing money to the Fed when it comes to repayment. The government continuously floats a debt, borrowing new funds as it repays debts coming due. Negative interest rates would be employed to take advantage of money that is not moving fast enough.
#2. The land. The land would largely be land already occupied but unowned by the black tenant. If it is a home under mortgage, the government would pay off the mortgage granting title to the homeowner. If the land is a condominium or apartment, same thing. The government buys the property and transfers it to the person.
#3. Neither I nor the government would determine who gets it. The black people would make that decision for themselves. All black US citizens wherever they are from would share in the reparation of $370,000 each. The land/property would be granted to the descendants of the slaves who were owed the land in the first place.

Affirmation: I truly believe this plan is justified since it was promised in the first place, and is necessary in order to do something real about ingrained injustice. Preening about in virtue signaling is an empty and futile gesture.

All your plan is going to do is ruin the economy and boost KKK membership numbers (eminent domain is already unpopular, what do you think is going to happen when people have to give up their land simply because they have the "wrong" skin color?).

Plus, the vibe I get from minority communities is they don't want handouts, they just want the government and the rest of society to give them the same opportunities as everyone else.

Want to do something actually effective to reduce the ingrained injustice? Start with schools, there's an insane gap in what resources are available in rich areas compared to poorer ones. Than increase accessibility to things like libraries, community centers and parks. Changing the way police are trained and crimes are punished is also something that must be done for the benefit of everyone. All these things and I'm sure some other stuff I'm forgetting will lead to a far better outcome for everyone than simply sending out checks and land deeds.

 

[Dotini]

All your plan is going to do is ruin the economy and boost KKK membership numbers (eminent domain is already unpopular, what do you think is going to happen when people have to give up their land simply because they have the "wrong" skin color?).

Plus, the vibe I get from minority communities is they don't want handouts, they just want the government and the rest of society to give them the same opportunities as everyone else.

Want to do something actually effective to reduce the ingrained injustice? Start with schools, there's an insane gap in what resources are available in rich areas compared to poorer ones. Than increase accessibility to things like libraries, community centers and parks. Changing the way police are trained and crimes are punished is also something that must be done for the benefit of everyone. All these things and I'm sure some other stuff I'm forgetting will lead to a far better outcome for everyone than simply sending out checks and land deeds.

I'm highly aware my plan is unpopular and carries risks.
On the other hand, doing nothing effective to address the injustices also has risks. This coming summer will provide opportunity for further discussion.

 

[McLaren]

#1. The money. The money would be created by the Fed. It would be the government owing money to the Fed when it comes to repayment. The government continuously floats a debt, borrowing new funds as it repays debts coming due. Negative interest rates would be employed to take advantage of money that is not moving fast enough.
#2. The land. The land would largely be land already occupied but unowned by the black tenant. If it is a home under mortgage, the government would pay off the mortgage granting title to the homeowner. If the land is a condominium or apartment, same thing. The government buys the property and transfers it to the person.
#3. Neither I nor the government would determine who gets it. The black people would make that decision for themselves. All black US citizens wherever they are from would share in the reparation of $370,000 each. The land/property would be granted to the descendants of the slaves who were owed the land in the first place.

Affirmation: I truly believe this plan is justified since it was promised in the first place, and is necessary in order to do something real about ingrained injustice. Preening about in virtue signaling is an empty and futile gesture.

This is beyond one of the silliest plans I have ever read. Northstar has already outlined the basics, so in response to the bold:

I sincerely hope you are proposing a transfer of an individual unit and not an entire complex property....

 

[Danoff]

The land/property would be granted to the descendants of the slaves who were owed the land in the first place.

Conferring entitlement through genetic inheritance is similarly as wrong as conferring guilt through genetic inheritance. Both mistake genes for something with more meaning. You think you might be able to trace a skin pigmentation gene across a century of people and that this confers rights.

 

[hejustsits]

#1. The money. The money would be created by the Fed. It would be the government owing money to the Fed when it comes to repayment. The government continuously floats a debt, borrowing new funds as it repays debts coming due. Negative interest rates would be employed to take advantage of money that is not moving fast enough.
#2. The land. The land would largely be land already occupied but unowned by the black tenant. If it is a home under mortgage, the government would pay off the mortgage granting title to the homeowner. If the land is a condominium or apartment, same thing. The government buys the property and transfers it to the person.
#3. Neither I nor the government would determine who gets it. The black people would make that decision for themselves. All black US citizens wherever they are from would share in the reparation of $370,000 each. The land/property would be granted to the descendants of the slaves who were owed the land in the first place.

Affirmation: I truly believe this plan is justified since it was promised in the first place, and is necessary in order to do something real about ingrained injustice. Preening about in virtue signaling is an empty and futile gesture.

Take it from me, sharing progressive/radical left-wing ideas on gtplanet is not worth the hassle. You couldn't be more outnumbered by traditionalists and conservatives if you tried. There are far less draining directions in which to put that energy.

 

[McLaren]

Most of this opinion forum leans left/progressive.

 

[DesertPenguin]

If by left/progressive you mean with logic and reason then yea

 

[UKMikey]

If by left/progressive you mean with logic and reason then yea

It's like normal opinions don't stand a chance around here.

 

[McLaren]

If by left/progressive you mean with logic and reason then yea

Must be the only place on the web where the outnumbering "conservatives" all despise Trump.

 

[TexRex]

Take it from me, sharing progressive/radical left-wing ideas on gtplanet is not worth the hassle. You couldn't be more outnumbered by traditionalists and conservatives if you tried. There are far less draining directions in which to put that energy.

You're forgiven for falling for someone play acting at espousing progressive ideals in good faith. It's a compelling act and it takes a keen eye that has witnessed it frequently enough to see it for what it really is; a desperate grab for attention.

It's like normal opinions don't stand a chance around here.

Normal or normal? The word is known around these parts to have two very different meanings, as I know you are aware.

 

[Joey D]

#1. The money. The money would be created by the Fed. It would be the government owing money to the Fed when it comes to repayment. The government continuously floats a debt, borrowing new funds as it repays debts coming due. Negative interest rates would be employed to take advantage of money that is not moving fast enough.
#2. The land. The land would largely be land already occupied but unowned by the black tenant. If it is a home under mortgage, the government would pay off the mortgage granting title to the homeowner. If the land is a condominium or apartment, same thing. The government buys the property and transfers it to the person.
#3. Neither I nor the government would determine who gets it. The black people would make that decision for themselves. All black US citizens wherever they are from would share in the reparation of $370,000 each. The land/property would be granted to the descendants of the slaves who were owed the land in the first place.

Affirmation: I truly believe this plan is justified since it was promised in the first place, and is necessary in order to do something real about ingrained injustice. Preening about in virtue signaling is an empty and futile gesture.

So your plan is to magically create money, steal property from people, and then have all this unregulated as some group, whatever group that is, doles out $370,000 to "black people" regardless of where that black person is actually from? This plan is not only not justified, but it's illegal, ripe for corruption, racist, and will cause the economy to implode.

What the black community, regardless of where their ancestors originate from, deserves is a system that respects their rights. Every American deserves that, and violating the rights to give another group more rights is not the way to fix anything.

 

[UKMikey]

Normal or normal? The word is known around these parts to have two very different meanings, as I know you are aware.

Apologies; I meant the abnormal "normal", not the normal normal. /rumsfeld

 

[hejustsits]

So your plan is to magically create money, steal property from people, and then have all this unregulated as some group, whatever group that is, doles out $370,000 to "black people" regardless of where that black person is actually from? , and will cause the economy to implode.

What the black community, regardless of where their ancestors originate from, deserves is a system that respects their rights. Every American deserves that, and violating the rights to give another group more rights is not the way to fix anything.

Businesses in the UK were compensated for the 'property' they lost due to the abolition of slavery, through the Slave Compensation Act of 1837. If you logically follow it forwards, that means that the descendants of slaves were paying compensation to their ancestors' slave owners, by having to paying tax, so this

This plan is not only not justified, but it's illegal, ripe for corruption, racist

is really maddening to have to read.

 

[Joey D]

Businesses in the UK were compensated for the 'property' they lost due to the abolition of slavery, through the Slave Compensation Act of 1837. If you logically follow it forwards, that means that the descendants of slaves were paying compensation to their ancestors' slave owners, by having to paying tax, so this



is really maddening to have to read.

So what do you propose? That people who never owned slaves, have property taken from them to pay people who weren't slaves? That seems pretty ridiculous to me. I mean why should I have to give up any of my money to pay for reparations? My family came from Scotland to Canada but ending up in Detroit in the early 1900s. They weren't slave owners and didn't profit from slaves what-so-ever. Even if you think I should have to pay for the sins of my ancestors, which is a ridiculous notion to begin with, my ancestors didn't commit the sin of slavery.

I'm not sure how it's maddening either. It's not justified because there are no ex-slaves alive today, just like there are no slave owners alive today (in the US at least). It's not legal because it violates all sorts of property rights and taking land or property from someone is unlawful seizure by the government for starters. It's ripe for corruption because @Dotini plan has no plane of oversight. Dumping trillions at the feet of some group, whoever will distribute the money, will almost certainly contain a great deal of corruption. Funds will be misappropriated and money will go missing. Finally, it's racist because it ignores anyone else who's dealt with any injustice. Take Native Americans for example, Europeans came to the Americas, killed them with either superior weapons or disease, and then proceeded to take their land. Then as the country got more and more developed, they shoved all the Native Americans into reservations, far away from their ancestral lands, and then proceeded to forget about them for the most part. What makes the Native American's plight any better or worse than that of slaves? It doesn't, both were wrong and both hand huge negative consequences on both groups.

Nevermind that @Dotini didn't explain how we determine who's "black" and who deserves the money in the first place. If you're going to determine it strictly by the color of your skin, that's sort of the definition of racism. You also have darker-skinned people from various parts of the globe, not just Africa. Also, not all Africans are "black". Northern African's skin color is closer to that of the Middle East than most of Sub-Saharan Africa. Basically, you'd have to be racist and say "you're not black enough" to determine who gets money and/or property.

The only thing I owe blacks are the same thing I owe everyone else and that's to respect their rights, both human rights and their Constitutional rights. Past that I owe them nothing and they owe me nothing. That's not to say I won't do more for a cause I believe in, but that's because it's my choice to do so.

 

[Danoff]

I am descended from a woman who at some point was held back due to sexist laws and behavior in the US. As a white man I'd say that earns me reparations, because I should have inherited more* from that woman.


* "more" implies that I inherited anything except deadbeat parents that stole from me. So it's a bit misleading.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I am not going to debate whether Reparations is a good idea (or not), but rather ask the question how it actually can be fairly implemented...

Is anyone who look like someone who should receive réparation would receive it?

What if you are someone who immigrated from Africa within the last 30 years, would you still get it?

What if you were born from mixed parents, would you get only half the amount?

What if your great great great grandpa came from born from mixed parents? Would you only get 1/16 of the full amount ?

How many payments or would it be just a lump sum?

Even if Reparations was the right thing to do, how practical would it be to actually distribute it?

And of course, other ethnic group would claim their own historic hardship...

I am in no way trying to negate what happened in history, but simply wondering...

Wouldn't it be much simpler if we all respect each other and love one another NOW as human beings and brothers and sisters, leave all the guns down in the floor...

Hatred and violence is no way to build a future...

 

[UKMikey]

I figure there'd be a lot more white looking people choosing to identify as fractionally African-American should this one go through.

Must be the only place on the web where the outnumbering "conservatives" all despise Trump.

The case against libertarians supporting the authoritarian Trump seems to me to be so clearly made on this forum that I'm always surprised to see libertarians elsewhere proudly announcing that they voted for him because "we're libertarians and we can vote for whoever we want". Maybe they're right but it seems a funny way of showing it. I guess they justify it as a vote against socialism.

 

[Betty blue]

When a nation really needs to be "UNITED" in a critical and difficult times. I feel that the US is at the lowest of lows because of its own political parties. It's become ridiculous! Even media seems to have lost its credibility to its political bias. They spend a lot of time fighting their internal political wars rather than doing what's best for the people. It's really sad.

 

[Joey D]

The case against libertarians supporting the authoritarian Trump seems to me to be so clearly made on this forum that I'm always surprised to see libertarians elsewhere proudly announcing that they voted for him because "we're libertarians and we can vote for whoever we want". Maybe they're right but it seems a funny way of showing it. I guess they justify it as a vote against socialism.

There's different flavours of libertarianism, but I don't know how anyone can consider themselves a libertarian and support Trump. He's anti-free speech, anti-gun, anti-free market, anti-small government, and anti-reducing the debt just to name a few things. Pretty much everything Trump does doesn't hold up to libertarian values, but my guess is those who support him subscribe to the notion you only have choice A or choice B.

 

[TexRex]

There's different flavours of libertarianism, but I don't know how anyone can consider themselves a libertarian and support Trump. He's anti-free speech, anti-gun, anti-free market, anti-small government, and anti-reducing the debt just to name a few things. Pretty much everything Trump does doesn't hold up to libertarian values, but my guess is those who support him subscribe to the notion you only have choice A or choice B.

It's "flavor". You're an American, so act like one!

/s



His appeal to Republicans isn't all that surprising. The modern Republican party is socially conservative, fiscally liberal and deeply hypocritical. They're far removed from what the Republican party has historically been.

Trump isn't himself Republican, though. Trump is Trump. The Republicans also happen to be Trump.