America - The Official Thread

[Danoff]

Continuing on that trend, now that it is pretty much certain that the Orange One is gone, can we go back to not being dicks to each other again, no matter the colour of your political spectrum?

There's been a lot of talk about this kind of subject in the last few days (rightly so). And I do think that the divider in chief leaving will be a big movement in the right direction on that front.

But I think that what really happened under the Trump administration, and this was very surprising to me, is that a lot of horrible horrible statements, opinions, positions, advocacy, came out of the woodwork from millions of Americans. The fact that people weren't being dicks to those people was based on not being aware of how awful they are. And to the extent that the disgusting statements that we've been hearing crawl back into the woodwork, we might see less dickery as a result.

Trump brought out the worst in people on both sides of the political aisle (and along lines which I don't even consider to be politics). People on the left said horrible things, especially the day Trump won. And people on the right have been saying stunningly disgusting things for 4 straight years.

If we expect people to go back to not being dicks to each other, what we're really saying is that people need to stop voicing their deepest most disgusting desires. I have little hope that those desires will go away, but we can be more civil if people don't feel comfortable saying vile things. Trump encouraged that, and that's apparently going to stop.

So to anyone hoping to be treated better, take it upon yourself to stifle your own vile statements. And maybe, just maybe, consider changing your mind.

 

[FuriousDemon]

The thing about trump bringing out the worst in people is certainly true.
One thing though, knowing that republicans were fine with how he behaved and still voted for him, I will not forget and unless a miracle happens I will never ever vote for a republican candidate. Worst case I’ll go third party if I have to.

 

[Scaff]

We have them all over the place in Colorado. They work great unless an 18 wheeler needs access, in which case they have to find an alternative route.

Odd, as I can't think of any roundabout that I know of that have caused that kind of issue. Low bridges are more of an issue than roundabouts

 

[TexRex]

knowing that republicans were fine with how he behaved and still voted for him

Enabled. It's okay to call it what it is. It spurred a trend of Trumpish candidates seeking (and in some cases acquiring) public office, which is super disconcerting. The victim complex also seems to have become more pronounced with individuals occupying public office more frequently attacking those seeking accountability rather than defending themselves against the allegations brought forth. Trumpism isn't going to disappear as miraculously as ballots for Biden were purported to appear.

 

[Dotini]

Dotini, you've been an apologist for Trump for the last 4 years.

Well, that's false.

From the very beginning I said Trump lacks essential leadership qualities such as tact, and that he was a loose cannon sure to crash the railings and sink to the bottom.

But what I have done is consider the very strong appeals of conservative nationalism to millions of Americans unable to accept lost jobs and casualties in failed foreign wars. That appeal remains strong and is still growing, IMO.

I think you owe me an apology.

 

[Biggles]

Enabled. It's okay to call it what it is. It spurred a trend of Trumpish candidates seeking (and in some cases acquiring) public office, which is super disconcerting. The victim complex also seems to have become more pronounced with individuals occupying public office more frequently attacking those seeking accountability rather than defending themselves against the allegations brought forth. Trumpism isn't going to disappear as miraculously as ballots for Biden were purported to appear.

Yes. If you ever wondered how it was possible for the Nazis to come to power in Germany, the rise of Trump provides a salutary lesson. I imagine the majority of Germans were not rabid anti-semites & war mongering nationalists, but given a set of legitimate (& not so legitimate) grievances, it was not that difficult for a charismatic, populist leader to push the national dialogue into an overtly racist, nationalistic & militaristic direction. And Hitler was enabled by right wing establishment figures who saw it as an opportunity to advance their goals.

Fortunately, the United States isn't the 1930's Weimar Republic & the economic, political & social situation isn't nearly as dire as it was back then, but the fact that 71 million Americans continued to support & vote for Trump is not something to happily ignore.

 

[Dotini]

...71 million Americans continued to support & vote for Trump is not something to happily ignore.

I'll have you know I did not vote for Trump.
I marched with Martin Luther King Jr for civil rights.
I attempted (though failed) to evade the draft in the Vietnam war. Several of my cherished friends died there.
I protested the Iraq war long and loud.
I participated in the Battle of Seattle on the side of labor.

In my opinion, peace and prosperity are more important than policy and ideology. In the end, Trump lost the presidency due to deep character flaws, lack of wisdom and tact. .

 

[TexRex]

The important thing is I had an onion tied to my belt, as it was the style at the time.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm certain @Dotini was a member of the Seattle 7.

 

[Northstar]

I'm certain @Dotini was a member of the Seattle 7.

I heard he gave Lennon inspiration for Imagine and came up with the phrase "🤬 happens" as well. Plus there was that whole thing where he mooned President Johnson after getting shot in the buttocks.

 

[Dotini]

Another thing, I try my best never to insult, mock or impugn any member of the forum. I've been here many years, and value the opportunity to engage with people from over the world with diverse views.

 

[Biggles]

Of course, American workers (like Germans in 1932) have legitimate grievances, but when Trump came down that escalator he opened his Presidential campaign with a deliberate appeal to racism, xenophobia & division. That remained a constant in his words & actions as President.

Prosperity was bought with tax cuts & massive deficits - something that is unsustainable in the long run. As in the past the biggest benefits have gone to the already very wealthy, rather than the average working class American.

Trump's aggressive nationalism (not to mention white nationalism) alienated allies & emboldened other populist dictators around the world. Trump's projection of economic & military power onto countries like Iran results in "peace' only for so long as those countries continue to acquiesce to the exercise of American power in their own backyards. It's a very tenuous situation that can turn around dramatically in short order.

Also, I'm not insulting, mocking or impugning - I'm just stating the facts: you've have been an apologist for Trump throughout ... & continue to be.

 

[Dotini]

I'm just stating the facts: you've have been an apologist for Trump throughout ... & continue to be.

That is NOT a fact. I've always acknowledged Trump had deep flaws. I have never apologized for Trump himself, just the basis of his appeal. I've attempted to understand and explain why so many people supported him. He appealed to peace and prosperity, a winning platform. He failed to deliver it. He lost.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

That is NOT a fact. I've always acknowledged Trump had deep flaws. I have never apologized for Trump himself, just the basis of his appeal. I've attempted to understand and explain why so many people supported him. He appealed to peace and prosperity, a winning platform. He failed to deliver it. He lost.

I think, with all due respect, that is a naive takeaway. He appealed to hate and rage primarily, IMO.

 

[Dotini]

I think, with all due respect, that is a naive takeaway. He appealed to hate and rage primarily, IMO.

Okay. But he did not appeal to MY hate and rage. I don't think I have any. So go ahead and assume I am naive and wrongly believed that Trump won election on a platform of peace and prosperity. Does that me your enemy? Does that justify your opprobrium?

 

[UKMikey]

Another thing, I try my best never to insult, mock or impugn any member of the forum. I've been here many years, and value the opportunity to engage with people from over the world with diverse views.

Heh.

I wonder whether part of the reason for the raised temperature on these discussion forums is due to people interpreting disapproval of Trump's boorish manner as an attack on themselves and people like them.

I've certainly been guilty of similar misinterpretation on behalf of Trump's predecessor Barack Obama in the past. Though a warm and charismatic human being by comparison with the Donald, he shouldn't've drone struck that kid. That's indefensible. At least when coalition forces blew some kid's arms off in Iraq the British chipped in and enabled him to move to the UK.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/orphan-who-lost-both-arms-12112166

 

[Dotini]

Heh.

I'm not perfect. But I do try to be polite to all. I think the record - considered in whole - shows that well. I apologize for my stumbles, and any offense given.

 

[Biggles]

That is NOT a fact. I've always acknowledged Trump had deep flaws. I have never apologized for Trump himself, just the basis of his appeal. I've attempted to understand and explain why so many people supported him. He appealed to peace and prosperity, a winning platform. He failed to deliver it. He lost.

Yes, you've acknowledged his flaws ... but you've also excused them on the basis of "peace and prosperity". While the US has not become involved in a major military engagement in the last four years, "peace" within the US has been replaced by the worst division since the 1960's & Trump has deliberately stoked that division. As far as "prosperity" is concerned, at the first real crisis that came along, Trump tried to lie & bluster his way through, resulting in accumulating deaths that dwarf any American death toll since WWII. Trump was an disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Dotini]

Trump was an disaster waiting to happen.

I agree, and have always said so, a "loose cannon".

But on the primacy of peace and prosperity, I will not apologize. If a man, no matter how flawed, can truly deliver peace and property to an entire nation, then perhaps his sins may be forgiven. But in this world, no matter the reasons, he failed to deliver. So his sins do matter.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Continuing on that trend, now that it is pretty much certain that the Orange One is gone, can we go back to not being dicks to each other again, no matter the colour of your political spectrum?

Largely I agree, though I think this comic explains the way I don't:

(Apologies for going straight to Godwin's Law.)

Here in Canada, I have numerous friends who support our Conservative party, and in the past would have voted Republican had they been American. We get along. Then there are the people who would support not just right-wing politics, but Trump specifically. Those people I have no patience for. Fear and xenophobia have no place in modern civilization.

What I'm really curious about is how many of the " 🤬 your feelings" crowd that cheered on Trump's 2016 win will now ask for folks to give them space, respect their feelings, and maybe even suggest working together. Are they genuine, and have learned something over the last four years? Or are they just reading the room and focused on self-preservation? It's one of the conundrums with the hard-left (not exclusive to it): there's this demand for people to learn and grow from past errors, but also a rigid belief to hold them to those same mistakes.

 

[TexRex]

Tolerance is an interesting one. I don't think there is a whole lot of true tolerance in politics, and I don't think its absence is inherently bad, though the degree to which it's absent very well can be.

Something I've noticed as of late--think social media age versus Trump age, though Trump has certainly taken advantage of it--is the idea of tolerance being weaponized.

Now...I'm going to do my best to keep this civil, as intolerant as I am of it. I'm also going to be referring to rights and lefts up ahead, but I want to make clear that nothing is limited to one side or the other.

One thing in particular that I've seen referenced is the "tolerant left" strawman. The "left" is painted as being "tolerant" so that that particular notion can be challenged by pointing out intolerance, thus attacking the character of those on the left.

This is asinine.

I wouldn't call myself a tolerant person (or a "left" person for that matter, though I certainly skew more left than those to the right of me). Frankly, I'm not quite sure what a tolerant person would even look like. Are there things of which I'm tolerant? I suppose. Are there things of which I'm intolerant? ABSOLUTELY!!!

Example: I'm not tolerant of homosexuality. I'm also not intolerant of homosexuality. I'm a straight man who isn't the least bit impacted by other people being homosexual. It's none of my business who others love provided all parties involved consent to acts performed as an expression of that love (or lust, or whatever it may be). I'm intolerant of those who aren't homosexual and seek to deprive homosexuals of rights that heterosexuals enjoy.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Okay. But he did not appeal to MY hate and rage. I don't think I have any. So go ahead and assume I am naive and wrongly believed that Trump won election on a platform of peace and prosperity. Does that me your enemy? Does that justify your opprobrium?

Of course not. But I think you need to see past your own understanding of Trump to also understand the incredible divide he has created. That is to say, you're assesment of Trump is far rosier than I think is reasonable. Do you think the civil unrest throughout the country is a sign of a nation at peace? Peace, internally, is at a particularly low ebb right now. Perhaps his supporters find peace in his rhetoric, but it's not well intentioned... I've certainly not been at peace of mind for the last 4 years, in real, tangible ways.

 

[Biggles]

Okay. But he did not appeal to MY hate and rage. I don't think I have any. So go ahead and assume I am naive and wrongly believed that Trump won election on a platform of peace and prosperity. Does that me your enemy? Does that justify your opprobrium?

I'm not saying YOU are ignorant, a racist & a bigot. You're not. That's part of the problem. In the pursuit of "peace & prosperity" you chose to ignore all the transgressions of a truly terrible President whose appeal was rooted in racism & bigotry. Choosing "prosperity" over basic principles smacks of complacency. Unfortunately, that is what many Republicans chose to do ... & apparently some libertarians. That's why Trump still got 71 million votes after everything that's happened in the last 4 years.

I refer you to SlipZtrEm's Paradox of Tolerance post above. Sometimes, you've got to pick a side.

 

[Dotini]

Of course not. But I think you need to see past your own understanding of Trump to also understand the incredible divide he has created. That is to say, you're assesment of Trump is far rosier than I think is reasonable. Do you think the civil unrest throughout the country is a sign of a nation at peace? Peace, internally, is at a particularly low ebb right now. Perhaps his supporters find peace in his rhetoric, but it's not well intentioned... I've certainly not been at peace of mind for the last 4 years, in real, tangible ways.

The peace I had in mind was international - costly, divisive foreign wars. I thought I had made that clear all along. But if that sort of peace is won at the cost of divisive and violent internal conflict, then I agree it is too high a cost. It must be accepted that neither peace nor prosperity is being properly realized. That said, the removal of Trump from politics - or even from Earth itself - is not by itself going to restore domestic tranquility. That problem has been brewing since long before Trump got into politics. It is deserving of serious discussion. When is the last time we had domestic tranquility? Or was it always a mirage concealing papered-over problems? I took major heat from seemingly every single member of the forum for coming out for tangible reparations. Yet I had the balls and the integrity to do it despite anticipating universal condemnation. I am obviously not here to win a popularity contest, but to exchange views and honestly state my own views, no matter how naive.

 

[TexRex]

I took major heat from seemingly every single member of the forum for coming out for tangible reparations. Yet I had the balls and the integrity to do it despite anticipating universal condemnation.

A humorous, if downright incorrect, account of events.

 

[andrea]

 

[Danoff]

When is the last time we had domestic tranquility?

We'd have to define it. Compared to now, I'd say 2015. But in 2015 a deep-seated anger was present among millions of Americans who despised the president and "progressive" ideas. Is that tranquility? I don't know.

I will say that unrest has grown as authoritarianism has become more powerful. And that unrest feeds on authoritarianism, and authoritarianism feeds on unrest. I would not describe the last 4 years as particularly prosperous or tranquil. And that includes foreign involvements. Keep in mind that within the last 4 years while we were stoking tension with North Korea, we had a false nuclear missile warning in Hawaii. Just a reminder of how tense that situation got.

Iran also came absurdly close to war.

Or was it always a mirage concealing papered-over problems? I took major heat from seemingly every single member of the forum for coming out for tangible reparations. Yet I had the balls and the integrity to do it despite anticipating universal condemnation. I am obviously not here to win a popularity contest, but to exchange views and honestly state my own views, no matter how naive.

I can't believe that you honestly think reparations is what we need right now. We're having a right wing domestic terror issue among the white supremacists (some of which are police) and you think it will solve problems to take their money and give it to people they don't know... and this is supposed to stop police brutality and racism?

Every time you bring this up, it is made clear to you why it is a bad idea. You should adjust instead of just repeating it as though you're entitled to respect for an opinion that has no rational underpinning. You anticipated condemnation because that's the rational response to what you were saying. It's not because people just don't like you or just don't like your ideas. Reparations are just a bad idea. And it's an idea that you barely try to defend.

 

[Dotini]

We'd have to define it. Compared to now, I'd say 2015. But in 2015 a deep-seated anger was present among millions of Americans who despised the president and "progressive" ideas. Is that tranquility? I don't know.

I will say that unrest has grown as authoritarianism has become more powerful. And that unrest feeds on authoritarianism, and authoritarianism feeds on unrest. I would not describe the last 4 years as particularly prosperous or tranquil. And that includes foreign involvements. Keep in mind that within the last 4 years while we were stoking tension with North Korea, we had a false nuclear missile warning in Hawaii. Just a reminder of how tense that situation got.

Iran also came absurdly close to war.



I can't believe that you honestly think reparations is what we need right now. We're having a right wing domestic terror issue among the white supremacists (some of which are police) and you think it will solve problems to take their money and give it to people they don't know... and this is supposed to stop police brutality and racism?

Every time you bring this up, it is made clear to you why it is a bad idea. You should adjust instead of just repeating it as though you're entitled to respect for an opinion that has no rational underpinning. You anticipated condemnation because that's the rational response to what you were saying. It's not because people just don't like you or just don't like your ideas. Reparations are just a bad idea. And it's an idea that you barely try to defend.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the guy who has stated in essence, on the record here in the forum, that racism is an inherent facet of the human character and cannot or should not be legislated or rooted out by force?

 

[Danoff]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the guy who has stated on record here in the forum that racism is an inherent facet of the human character and cannot or should not be legislated or rooted out by force?

You clearly misunderstood me. The last part is true, racism has to be legal.

As to the first part, our genes are designed to survive, and it does result in tribalism and xenophobia. That doesn't make racism an inherent facet of "the human character" (as if that's a thing). It means that tribalism, xenophobia, and racism has biological underpinnings. But so does rape, murder, and just about every crime imaginable. Racism is no more an "inherent facet of the human character" than murder - which is to say humans do it, but it's not required of humans.

 

[Dotini]

You clearly misunderstood me. The last part is true, racism has to be legal.

As to the first part, our genes are designed to survive, and it does result in tribalism and xenophobia. That doesn't make racism an inherent facet of "the human character" (as if that's a thing). It means that tribalism, xenophobia, and racism has biological underpinnings. But so does rape, murder, and just about every crime imaginable. Racism is no more an "inherent facet of the human character" than murder - which is to say humans do it, but it's not required of humans.

Okay, good, I'll go with your statement of fact that racism has to be legal. For the sake of discussion, I will accept that and continue.

Accepting that racism is legal, and acknowledging that racism is at the heart of profound suffering for millions of people and is at the root of social unrest and conflict, what are we now to do? I say we should should do something TANGIBLE to improve the situation. We know the enduring and current legacy of racism, the discrimination, inequality and suffering of blacks in America dramatically escalated when the slaves were freed and the plan for them to succeed was aborted in the aftermath of Lincoln's assassination. If we cannot change our hearts, as you aver we cannot, we at least need a plan for blacks to succeed, in my humble opinion. However naive and unworkable, I have suggested a plan for tangible relief. If you or anyone else has a better plan, let's hear it.