America - The Official Thread

[p78]

It was very funny to see they invested all that money in equipment to prove that the earth was flat, and then their own equipment proved it was in fact round.
They then claimed there was an equipment failure lol.

 

[eran0004]

It was very funny to see they invested all that money in equipment to prove that the earth was flat, and then their own equipment proved it was in fact round.
They then claimed there was an equipment failure lol.

All you need to prove that the Earth is round (and calculate its radius) is a stick, a tape measure and a bit of trigonometry.

 

[TexRex]

I didn't know the President had the authority to tell a city it can't implement a toll.

Captain EO strikes again.

StAtEs' RiGhTs

The fact that anyone has to “debunk” flat earth makes the internet more of a one step forward, two (or even three) steps back kind of thing, though, don’t you think?

No. I'd suggest it's the inverse, where access to information empowers individuals to counter conspiratorial belief like never before, and while bad information is also just as accessible, I don't think there's been a huge shift in the willingness or desire to accept it.

Also remember that the flat Earth conspiracy theory isn't that Earth is flat, but as with all conspiracy theories, that there's an individual or collective benefit, especially to the powerful, in the public accepting the "narrative" that Earth isn't flat.

I was still fairly solidly Democrat in late 2002 and I knew people who were opposed to the Iraq invasion and Bush such that they came to genuinely believe the 9/11 attacks were staged to justify it. I gather theories that the US faked the Moon landing formed in the years immediately following the achievement and they largely center around the government's desire to prove its supremacy over the Soviets.

I don't think conspiratorial belief has become more prevalent due to the internet. I do, however, believe that individuals given to conspiratorial belief may become more entrenched in those due to both easier access to information that confirms their priors (they have a belief from the jump and only that which validates it will be considered) and the appearance that there are more against them. Also those given to conspiratorial belief are able to communicate with one another more easily than ever and this can result in a greater variety of particular beliefs proliferating among them.

 

[Strittan]

StAtEs' RiGhTs

No. I'd suggest it's the inverse, where access to information empowers individuals to counter conspiratorial belief like never before, and while bad information is also just as accessible, I don't think there's been a huge shift in the willingness or desire to accept it.

Also remember that the flat Earth conspiracy theory isn't that Earth is flat, but as with all conspiracy theories, that there's an individual or collective benefit, especially to the powerful, in the public accepting the "narrative" that Earth isn't flat.

I was still fairly solidly Democrat in late 2002 and I knew people who were opposed to the Iraq invasion and Bush such that they came to genuinely believe the 9/11 were staged to justify it. I gather theories that the US faked the Moon landing formed in the years immediately following the achievement and they largely center around the government's desire to prove its supremacy over the Soviets.

I don't think conspiratorial belief has become more prevalent due to the internet. I do, however, believe that individuals given to conspiratorial belief may become more entrenched in those due to both easier access to information that confirms their priors (they have a belief from the jump and only that which validates it will be considered) and the appearance that there are more against them. Also those given to conspiratorial belief are able to communicate with one another more easily than ever and this can result in a greater variety of particular beliefs proliferating among them.

You’ve literally elected a conspiracy theorist as president, twice, so what the hell are you talking about?

 

[TexRex]

You’ve literally elected a conspiracy theorist as president, twice, so what the hell are you talking about?

 

[Strittan]

What? He’s not a conspiracy theorist, or he would’ve been elected pre-internet as well?

 

[Exorcet]

The head of the Department of Health and Human Services is an antivaxxer.

I don't have a comparable example of someone so totally unqualified being put in a position of power, but the antivax movement has been trying to exert influence for a long time. RFK may not be, or might not solely be, a result of an increased rate of misunderstanding medical science. Likewise intelligent design has been pushed for years and has organizations behind it to keep it alive which aren't recent like the Discovery Institute. The victories that disinformation groups are seeing now may be the result of continual effort over decades. Things finally lined up for them and allowed them to get into places where they have absolutely no business being.

The fact that anyone has to “debunk” flat earth makes the internet more of a one step forward, two (or even three) steps back kind of thing, though, don’t you think?

Well flat Earth isn't new either. The current movement references the older one from the 1800's and occasionally the more recent movement from the latter half of the 1900's. Debunking of flat earth has been necessary for over a century. What happened in the past decade was a flare up of something that has always been there. The internet contributed to that, but it also contributed to the rise of educators looking to attack sources of disinformation.

 

[Strittan]

The internet contributed to that, but it also contributed to the rise of educators looking to attack sources of disinformation.

Attack sources of desinformation, eh? Meanwhile Trump, the most powerful man on earth, says Zelenskyj is a dictator and that Ukraine started the war against Russia.

 

[Fezzik]

It’s very odd. Trump usually loves dictators.

 

[TexRex]

I don't have a comparable example of someone so totally unqualified being put in a position of power, but the antivax movement has been trying to exert influence for a long time. RFK may not be, or might not solely be, a result of an increased rate of misunderstanding medical science. Likewise intelligent design has been pushed for years and has organizations behind it to keep it alive which aren't recent like the Discovery Institute. The victories that disinformation groups are seeing now may be the result of continual effort over decades. Things finally lined up for them and allowed them to get into places where they have absolutely no business being.

Neither such disinformation groups nor major political parties willing to pander to the lowest common denominator to gain and sustain control are great in isolation, but in aggregate they're orders of magnitude worse.

 

[Exorcet]

Attack sources of desinformation, eh? Meanwhile Trump, the most powerful man on earth, says Zelenskyj is a dictator and that Ukraine started the war against Russia.

Liars are going to lie and idiots are going to sprout idiocy.

On the topic of Ukraine I can search for Trump's opinion, as I just did, and find a number of sources fact checking him, as I just did. I think it would have helped to have the same ability to search during McCarthy era.

 

[UKMikey]

Liars are going to lie and idiots are going to sprout idiocy.

On the topic of Ukraine I can search for Trump's opinion, as I just did, and find a number of sources fact checking him, as I just did. I think it would have helped to have the same ability to search during McCarthy era.

The last time The Washington Post ran a continuous fact check on the cantaloupe-coloured con artist, they found him to have made 30,573 false or misleading claims.

So far, they don't seem to be willing to repeat the exercise for his current term ever since owner Jeff Bezos had the journalists responsible pushed out of high windows or taken outside and shot for some reason.

 

[Strittan]

Liars are going to lie and idiots are going to sprout idiocy.

On the topic of Ukraine I can search for Trump's opinion, as I just did, and find a number of sources fact checking him, as I just did. I think it would have helped to have the same ability to search during McCarthy era.

So Trump should do more internet then?

 

[DK]

And it gets worse!

View attachment 1430115

Second Amendment anyone? Anyone?

The Simpsons did it first.

 

[Pupik]

StAtEs' RiGhTs

So there's long been discussion whether tolls could be implemented on highways/routes built with Federal money, and usually the answer has been "no", but so along as there's a reasonable and viable alternative.

However, if a route was built or existed before a time when Federal monies were awarded for a project (usually that cut-off was around 1956, with the Interstate Highway Act), then those existing facilities could charge tolls. Examples like the Indiana Toll Road, New York Thruway, and Alligator Alley come to mind, as well as several toll bridges around the country. The states created them through their own legislation or by private companies beforehand.

New York City has long maintained many of its own streets, highways, and parkways; so they are free to charge, and it does not add any additional toll for passing through without stopping within Manhattan (though it already has had expensive bridge tolls). It should be noted that generally no expense is entirely swallowed but passed onto the consumer somehow, and tolls are no exception (but can be tax-deductible for business purposes).

 

[Exorcet]

So Trump should do more internet then?

Fact checks aren't for the benefit of the liar. The point is to prevent false claims from going unchallenged.

You're pointing out that someone is lying. This is not new at all, and it's not even new of people in power. Trump is a particularly bad example but doesn't standout as being something that only the internet age could create.

I'll grant you that I don't have a full understanding of why the US is trying to destroy itself currently and I'm not trying to present a complete explanation. I don't think it's just because of the internet though.

 

[Blitz24]

So there's long been discussion whether tolls could be implemented on highways/routes built with Federal money, and usually the answer has been "no", but so along as there's a reasonable and viable alternative.

However, if a route was built or existed before a time when Federal monies were awarded for a project (usually that cut-off was around 1956, with the Interstate Highway Act), then those existing facilities could charge tolls. Examples like the Indiana Toll Road, New York Thruway, and Alligator Alley come to mind, as well as several toll bridges around the country. The states created them through their own legislation or by private companies beforehand.

New York City has long maintained many of its own streets, highways, and parkways; so they are free to charge, and it does not add any additional toll for passing through without stopping within Manhattan (though it already has had expensive bridge tolls). It should be noted that generally no expense is entirely swallowed but passed onto the consumer somehow, and tolls are no exception (but can be tax-deductible for business purposes).

Would that only be applicable for interstates and US highways? Technically that could remove the Battery tunnel, midtown tunnel and Holland tunnel as all routes are directly accessed by an interstate route.

 

[Pupik]

Would that only be applicable for interstates and US highways? Technically that could remove the Battery tunnel, midtown tunnel and Holland tunnel as all routes are directly accessed by an interstate route.

I believe they all predate the Interstate Act, or were constructed in the timeframe before applying for that sort of status through AASHTO. Tolling gets a little murky because sometimes there's massive wholesale changes to routes due to federal monies (which would deny tolling status) but usually they're just supplementing state funds. It's rarely more than 10% of expenses except for specific INFRA grants (which can be seen as pork, but all states get a chance to use it for any transportation desire) or emergency situations (like the Baltimore Bay Bridge collapse).

 

[Blitz24]

I believe they all predate the Interstate Act, or were constructed in the timeframe before applying for that sort of status through AASHTO. Tolling gets a little murky because sometimes there's massive wholesale changes to routes due to federal monies (which would deny tolling status) but usually they're just supplementing state funds. It's rarely more than 10% of expenses except for specific INFRA grants (which can be seen as pork, but all states get a chance to use it for any transportation desire) or emergency situations (like the Baltimore Bay Bridge collapse).

Correct. They all do. The Lincoln Tunnel I explicitly left out because the lead in route is NJ 495. Either way, the former applies.

 

[Aloha62_2]

He's saying the quiet part out loud and none of the Republicans see an issue with this.

They are looking forward to their share of the payments.

How stupid they are to think Trump will ever payout, or that Musk will let the money out of his sight.

 

[Strittan]

I'll grant you that I don't have a full understanding of why the US is trying to destroy itself currently and I'm not trying to present a complete explanation. I don't think it's just because of the internet though.

Me neither. Look, I think we’ve misunderstood each other. I’m not saying internet is all bad, and you’re not saying it’s all good, right? My take is that it’s both the best and worst innovation.

Now, social media however, and arguably even the smart phone, has done nothing good for the world the way I see it. That’s not what we discussed, I know, but just saying.

 

[Aloha62_2]

6000 IRS workers have been sacked.

Don't expect that audit on Trump from a decade ago to ever be finished then.

 

[McLaren]

He's saying the quiet part out loud and none of the Republicans see an issue with this.

Some do, they're just being as quiet as possible about it & only waiting for opportune moments like McConnell & Pence who are out of jobs now. Even with people like Graham & Neely Kennedy voicing opposition, they'll sit back down in their chairs when the time comes.

The 1 Republican microphone actually being open is Bannon.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm not sure if we deserve someone as relentlessly passionate as Bernie Sanders, but sometimes I think he's the only person with enough charisma, clout, focus, and determination, at 83 years old, to take the fight directly and effectively to the Oligarchy. This is the first time I've seen anything resembling a plan of action emerge from the left since Trump took office.

We are on the road for democracy and justice

 

[Johnny Caisse]

They are looking forward to their share of the payments.

How stupid they are to think Trump will ever payout, or that Musk will let the money out of his sight.

Trump and Musk never give anything more than excuses and lies. 🤣

Also, did anyone see the post where Trump self-appointed himself as a king in New York?

 

[GBO Possum]

Trump and Musk never give anything more than excuses and lies. 🤣

Also, did anyone see the post where Trump self-appointed himself as a king in New York?

 

[Imari]

Now, social media however, and arguably even the smart phone, has done nothing good for the world the way I see it. That’s not what we discussed, I know, but just saying.

Social media is a cool idea that got twisted by people trying to use it to squeeze as much money out of people as possible. It is bad in it's current form, but one can imagine a type of social media that worked to serve it's users instead of milking them.

The smart phone is just a good design for a small, portable computer. What people choose to do with that is not the fault of the hardware. Even turning off all connectivity entirely, it's a very useful tool.

Just because those in power can/are using some of these things against us doesn't mean that they're inherently bad. It means that they're tools that can be misused by bad actors, just like almost every tool ever invented. A hammer can be used to drive nails, tenderise meat, and discipline children.

The thing that probably has the strong argument for "has done nothing good for the world" is humanity itself, but I don't think that's true either even though we keep doing our best to try and **** it up.

 

[Strittan]

Social media is a cool idea that got twisted by people trying to use it to squeeze as much money out of people as possible. It is bad in it's current form, but one can imagine a type of social media that worked to serve it's users instead of milking them.

The smart phone is just a good design for a small, portable computer. What people choose to do with that is not the fault of the hardware. Even turning off all connectivity entirely, it's a very useful tool.

Just because those in power can/are using some of these things against us doesn't mean that they're inherently bad. It means that they're tools that can be misused by bad actors, just like almost every tool ever invented. A hammer can be used to drive nails, tenderise meat, and discipline children.

The thing that probably has the strong argument for "has done nothing good for the world" is humanity itself, but I don't think that's true either even though we keep doing our best to try and **** it up.

Touché.

 

[Meythia]

Social media is a cool idea that got twisted

I dont think it got twisted but serves just the way imagined on the first day.

even though we keep doing our best to try and **** it up.

That definitly is true.
Im already afraid of the next election here because I sincerly fear that the reasonably people of young age are not going to be reasonable enough to show up to vote, giving our Nazis in disguise more relative power than they ought to have.

On a ironic sidenote:
There is a website of a local NGO that "supports the Ukraine" - nothing unusual, nice to see some people trying to engage in a helpful manner.
Their address is directly opposite of a road named after a woman that was killed by the Nazi party just a few days before WW2 ended - still nothing unusual, could be everywhere and just happened to be there.
The people there are driving Tesla and just recently bought another one - undeclared Trump supporters that is, what am I supposed to believe there? (To be fair, I dont know how long in advance the new car was ordered)

 

[GBO Possum]

The people there are driving Tesla and just recently bought another one - undeclared Trump supporters that is, what am I supposed to believe there? (To be fair, I dont know how long in advance the new car was ordered)

Please don't jump to the conclusion that all Tesla drivers are Trump supporters. The vast majority of Teslas on the road were acquired during the period that Tesla owners were derided by the right wing. And I suspect that the dwindling supply of Tesla buyers are unlikely to be Trumpsters (apart from those buying CyberTrucks maybe).

I drive a Tesla. I buy wind-generated electricity to power it. I am horrified that 49% of my fellow voters chose Trump. Horrified.

The final straw, was that last Monday, when Mrs Possum and I happened to drive past an anti-Trump rally, we were yelled at for being "Nazis".

This is the only thing I dislike about our Tesla. It's the best car I've ever driven serious miles in (I'm excluding a brief McLaren and Ferrari experience).

I have written to the Tesla corporation asking them to remove the stench of Musk from our car.

/endrant 🥲