...And taxes.

  • Thread starter Pupik
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Institute taxes on profits made overseas. Provide tax breaks for profits made domestically.

Tariffs would work I suppose.

Seems I've been blessed. My first job was at a small computer company making $8/hr -- which is a lot if you only have yourself to support, but for a family of 3, 4, or 5 -- no way (Delphi... ).

For a family of 3-5 at least two people should be working making jointly $40,000 a year, which isn't a lot but you can still live on it. Not in luxery mind you, but you can live on it.

That's asinine. But in general, accepting a lower paying job (especially when you have family to take care of) is easier said than done.

Is it? You mean if you had no job what so ever it would be hard to take a lower paying job? I know if I had no income coming in I would take anything just to make some money. I'm all about making money by any means, and if that ment getting a job at McDonald's would be fine be me.

The world would be better off if we had a lower funded military to begin with -- and we could save on taxes at home!

It would be but you need a military in todays' world.
 
BlazinXtreme
Tariffs would work I suppose.

That too.

For a family of 3-5 at least two people should be working making jointly $40,000 a year, which isn't a lot but you can still live on it. Not in luxery mind you, but you can live on it.

Depending on the area -- I agree with that, though.

Is it? You mean if you had no job what so ever it would be hard to take a lower paying job? I know if I had no income coming in I would take anything just to make some money. I'm all about making money by any means, and if that ment getting a job at McDonald's would be fine be me.

You misunderstood -- I was agreeing with you. I think it's asinine that someone would forego a job opportunity altogether because it pays less.

It would be but you need a military in todays' world.

Understandable -- just not at the level that we have. You know your military is too big when its giving money away to other militaries! :dopey:
 
You misunderstood -- I was agreeing with you. I think it's asinine that someone would forego a job opportunity altogether because it pays less.

:doh: Alright
 
Famine
I'd still like to know:
In answer I'd say no not really. They probably use less and have private healthcare and so on, I know I would.
 
Got to wonder why it's considered fair that they pay more money towards the services then, really.
 
It's not fair, not at all really. Looking at it from both sides, the rich can afford the taxes and thoes taxes can be put to good use and benefit the country as a whole (I'm not saying this actualy happens, it's just how it could be if someone sensible was incharge), the flip side is, it's not a fair method, it's not actually being used in a great country benefitting way and in a way it is discrimination on the wealthy, a lot of the rich peaople in Britain got rich by hard work, why should they have to hand it back. Personally though, I don't let high taxes bother me too much, I have the odd rant from time to time mind, but I accept it, I'd rather not have to pay so much but I can afford it and I can't legally get out of it, so I pay it. My brother doesn't have the same problem, he earns more than me but pays almost no tax :lol:.
 
pupik
Is it fair for a rich person to pay more in taxes than a poorer person? Should everyone pay the same rate, like a flat tax? Or should everyone just pay the same amount, like a poll tax? Is it fair to work harder, only to have more of your hard-worked earnings go to people who don't earn as much or work as hard (or at all).

What is fair and unfair to tax (estates, gifts, money that's been taxed already, etc.)? And what's unfair or fair to leave as tax-deductible, in your opinion?
Flat-rate taxes are fair. I think it is safe to assume that a rich person has more assets requiring the protection of civil services such as police, fire, and national security. Therefore I don't have a problem with them paying more taxes in dollar amount.

However, there's no ethical reason at all that they should pay a higher percentage rate in taxes. Even though supporters like to call this a "progressive" system (with the implication that the flat tax is regressive), it is highly unfair and penalizes success.

Make a fair, flat rate income tax, eliminate loopholes and deductions and shelters, and have it be simple, honest, and straightforward.

I don't think it is fair that estates or gifts of any size are taxed. That money has already been taxed through income taxes or capital gains taxes, and like double indemnity, it shouldn't be taxed twice. Just because rich people usually have money left to bequest to their family and friends does not mean that abolishing the inheritance tax is unfair to poor people.
MrktMkr1986
The world would be better off if we had a lower funded military to begin with -- and we could save on taxes at home!
So the world was much better off in the late '70s, when the US military was heavily underfunded? And again in the mid-'90s?
 
Well said Duke.

I've never understood why finacial success is penalized by higher taxes. Talke about a reason to shoot for mediocrity. :yuck:

I also hate the fact that married couples pay less taxes(usually) then a single person.
 
Carl.
Let's say an execs making over 10 times more than his secretary. who has barely enough to pay for the rent, food, utilities, insurance and transportation for her family. In Libertopia's "fair" world, the CEO could replace his S500 with an S600 while the secretary would only be closer to (if not having to) resort to charity for some of her basic family needs. How's that such a great thing? (oh, forgive me. "What a grrreat incentive to work harder!!")
I know this is beside the point but you apparently have no clue how much executive assistants make. My mother is an executive assistant to a CEO of a branch of a top 10 company and she is making twice what I do sitting behind a desk in an air conditioned office in a supervisor position. She is assistant to a branch CEO, not even the Chairman or corporate CEO, just a branch CEO. If she moves to the corporate offices she can make even more, but she chooses not to because she makes plenty and has her family here.

Famine
Shannon
No, but when you think about it, a person sitting in air conditioning behind a desk shouldn't be getting payed double (or triple) the amount as someone outside in the heat busting their arse. So, I agree with higher taxes for higher payed jobs.
Why?
I would love an answer to this.

I am of the opinion that the people in that office job are working hard, even if it is not physical labor, so that they can keep the financial and organizational side of the business running. Without the guy behind the desk the guy in the sun would not even have a job. So, the guy behind the desk, assuming he is upper management, makes more than the guy in the sun because he is working to keep them both in a job. If the guy in the sun fails to do his job then maybe the company loses a few hundred or few thousand dollars and someone else can be found to do it for him, but if the guy behind the desk fails to do his job then millions could be lost and the company could go under, causing everyone to lose their jobs. Think Enron. That wasn't because one of their production team failed, it was because the upper management failed and then lied about it.

That is all assuming that a guy behind a desk is upper management. In my case I am entry-level management making $13 an hour with benefits. Local unionized factory workers at a different company (we have no factories) can start out at $25 an hour with cheaper benefits because of the union. Of course, if I did work for teh same company with a union I know that teh factory workers will all be mostly laid off before me because they cost the company more than I do. So, of course my job security is worth a lot more than the extra money.

Back on the tax topic, I believe a flat tax rate is the way to go. Why do the top 5% of wage earners pay more than half the tax dollars in the United States? That sounds like it is way off.

Why do my tax dollars go to my sister-in-law's brother who doesn't have a job because he is "waiting for a management position?" If you are waiting for something better get a job that is "below" you now so that you can at least pay the bills and support yourself. Perhaps you can get a student loan on the side too and get a college degree so you can actually get that management job. They don't just hand those things out, but apparently they do hand out my tax dollars.
 
FoolKiller
They don't just hand those things out, but apparently they do hand out my tax dollars.

This is one thing that leans me towards the libertarian philosophy. I really can't stand it that lazy, unmotivated people get to sit around and take my money. I'm not even talking about the handicapped, just people that find it easier to stay on welfare then get a job.
 
FoolKiller
I know this is beside the point but you apparently have no clue how much executive assistants make. My mother is an executive assistant to a CEO of a branch of a top 10 company and she is making twice what I do sitting behind a desk in an air conditioned office in a supervisor position. She is assistant to a branch CEO, not even the Chairman or corporate CEO, just a branch CEO. If she moves to the corporate offices she can make even more, but she chooses not to because she makes plenty and has her family here.

[Beside the point]I think I do have a fairly good clue, I'm talking from what I've seen from the market. My mother, as well as my ex mother-in-law are assistants not far under the CEO of large corportations / government, and you're right, what I've said doesn't apply to their jobs, they are both well paid. On the other hand, I've worked for a manufacturing company, with around 130 employees and no union. 7 of them where assistants, and putting students helper jobs aside, their salary was the lowest of the company, and I don't see how you could cut more into their income without affecting their ability to pay for their families basic needs. [/Beside the point.]
 
The most fair system devisable is no tax at all. In such a system the government would get paid by the deflation of the dollar as the economy grows. In this case the government can print money to prevent deflation and use the printed money to buy goods and services. If that happened, the government would earn its income, none of which had to be forced from others, and it would not have to intervene in the lives of its citizens to collect that money.

The above scenario, however, relies on private industry to provide just about everything under the sun to the population since the governmental income in that situation would be quite low and unstable.

The second most fair system devisable is for everyone to pay the same dollar amount for government services that are equal to everyone (such as military spending, law enforcement, etc.) I reject Duke’s notion that some people have more to protect than others. For each of us the only protection we need is the preservation of our rights – which is something we all have equally. Other government services such as roads would be taxed in a pay-as-you go system, in which people pay for the services as they are used, so that those consuming the services are the ones paying for them.

This system is complex and, assuming massive military spending is necessary, would be very difficult on the lowest income workers.

Another semi-fair system is to use a sales tax. This system will tax the rich more than the poor because the rich spend far more than the poor. However, this system is still fairly non-intrusive because the government cannot keep tabs on who is doing the spending, or the lifestyles of those individuals. This system can provide for a fairly large government while maintaining little bureaucratic overhead. The downside of the sales tax is the black market. If the sales tax gets large enough people will buy from black markets or buy from other countries to avoid the tax. The sales tax would have to stay small (~20% or so) for it to be feasible.

The least fair system that I’m willing to tolerate is a flat tax rate (percentage wise) based on income. In this scenario the rich pays more than the poor and the government gets to keep tabs on your income from year to year. This system is not as nice as the sales tax because more people must be monitored. It also does not eliminate the existence of a black market, though the black market in this case is for labor rather than goods.

Taxes are not theft, and nobody but an Anarchist will claim otherwise. Some taxes, however, are immoral. Taxes that redistribute income from one person to another for no services rendered ARE theft and should be eliminated completely. This includes welfare and social security. Taxes that are used for services that discriminate among citizens for who gets what are also immoral (unless the system is pay-as-you-go). This means that taxes used to fund discriminatory programs like race-based scholarships or income-based housing should be abolished as well.

If everyone is going to be taxed, everyone must get the services. Those government services that are used unevenly by the people should be paid by those who are using them. The most fundamental government services, however, are used equally by everyone – so everyone should pay equally. That’s fair.
 
^--- Bingo. Carl, I never said (nor meant to imply) that all taxes are theft, because we do need some way to keep a government running, which requires money. But unfair taxes are theft – when the government takes my money and uses it for welfare, it’s theft. I don’t care if it’s for “a good cause” or for “the general well-being”, it’s still, by definition, theft. And a progressive tax tells everybody that we’re okay with theft.
 
The U.S. Federal Tax Code is over nine million words long and continues to grow.

Check it out:

Tax Code table of contents

Tax Code by sections

How did it get so gigantic? Because nobody has an answer to simplifying it. No matter which reform scenario might be adopted (and danoff concisely summarized several), large numbers of people would suffer in some way or another, so we'll never come to agree on a solution.

So we lumber along into the future, dragging this little document behind us, with no real hope of anything ever changing significantly.
 
BlazinXtreme
Bush tried to simplfy it but it's just to large.

It isn't too large to simplify. The larger it is, the easier it is to simplify.

Here's how we can throw the document out completely:

20% national sales tax on all goods.

Done. The took 1 sentence.
 
20% national sales tax on all goods.

HELL NO! Can you imagine 20% on a car? Sweet lord. My truck was about $20,000 and that means that I would have paid $4000 just in taxes. I don't even pay that much in income tax.
 
BlazinXtreme
HELL NO! Can you imagine 20% on a car?

Imagine it? We HAVE it. Well, 17.5%, but it's near enough.

Some countries have MASSIVE sales tax on cars - I believe it approaches 50% in one of the Scandinavian countries.
 
Oh God! I'll never complain about 6% sales tax ever again. I feel bad for you guys.
 
Sage
...when the government takes my money and uses it for welfare, it’s theft...
How about when it takes your money and funds all this? :

Executive Branch:

Cabinet-level Executive Agencies

Department of Agriculture
Budget: $19.1 billion
Employees: 109,832

Department of Commerce
Budget: $5.8 billion
Employees: 40,000

Department of Defense
Budget: $371 billion
Employees: 2,036,000

Department of Education
Budget: $57.3 billion
Employees: 4,487

Department of Energy
Budget: $24.3 billion (gross)
Employees: 16,100 federal, 100,000 contract

Department of Health and Human Services
Budget: $66.8 billion
Employees: 67,000

Department of Homeland Security
Budget: $40 billion
Employees: 180,000

Department of Housing and Urban Development
Budget: $31.3 billion
Employees: 10,600

Department of the Interior
Budget: $10.8 billion
Employees: 71,436

Department of Justice
Budget: $22 billion
Employees: 109,000

Department of Labor
Budget: $11.9 billion
Employees: 17,347

Department of State
Budget: $10.3 billion
Employees: 30,266

Department of Transportation
Budget: $61.6 billion
Employees: 60,000

Department of the Treasury
Budget: $10.8 billion
Employees: 115,897

Department of Veterans Affairs
Budget: $51 billion
Employees: 219,000

Judicial Branch

Quasi-Official Agencies

Federal Boards, Commissions, and Committees
Tangential Non-Government Agencies


[edited by moderator] That post was entirely too long. You can edit this post with a link to your data, but nothing more. In the future, please post a link.


Okay.

http://www.akdart.com/gov1.html

We whine and moan about "welfare waste", and ignore where most of our money is really being squandered...
 
There was no point to that god aweful long post, POST A FREAKIN LINK!
 
Don't forget our gradated 10/22/40% income tax (also levied on bank accounts), council tax (typically around £1,000 a year for having a house), tax on savings, double-petrol tax (petrol is "x" for the product plus a flat rate fuel duty fee PLUS 17.5% VAT - we're being taxed on the tax we pay on petrol!) - I could go on.
 
Famine
Don't forget our gradated 10/22/40% income tax (also levied on bank accounts), council tax (typically around £1,000 a year for having a house), tax on savings, double-petrol tax (petrol is "x" for the product plus a flat rate fuel duty fee PLUS 17.5% VAT - we're being taxed on the tax we pay on petrol!) - I could go on.

Jesus! The UK bends you guys over and really puts it to you. God I thought American taxes were bad, we got it easy compared to you guys. Why do you have such insane taxes?
 
Zardoz
How about when it takes your money and funds all this? :

...

No, funding beaurocracy is not theft, it's waste. Those people are employees of the public, hired and funded by the public to perform a service. Many of the people you list aren't necessary, however... and worse, many of them work against progress.
 
We're a bunch of over-polite morons who take whatever shafting we get in the name of "civil responsibility" because we're too stupid to complain.

And our politicians are all essentially the same person. Doesn't matter who you vote for - they'll vote themselves a nice payrise and ass-rape you for it.
 
Famine
We're a bunch of over-polite morons who take whatever shafting we get in the name of "civil responsibility" because we're too stupid to complain.

And our politicians are all essentially the same person. Doesn't matter who you vote for - they'll vote themselves a nice payrise and ass-rape you for it.

Wow, I guess no matter were you go in the world the government screws it's citizens.
 
Oh yes, it's all take from them as well, when they owe you money it can be a hassle getting it back.
 
Why did I start this thread? Well:

I received a big 'ol bonus end-of-year bonus check. Usually about 12-15% gets taken out for taxes, the rest is "withholding", and Social Security for my weekly income, gits, bonuses, commission. But since my bonus was about 3x more than what I usually make, the feds took out about 32% in taxes! I figured I crossed over into another tax bracket, but the next week (and still the same year), the weekly check was taxed at the lesser rate I described before. So I'm penalized because I made more in a particular week, not because I made so much for the year.

It made me realize that people who get paid on a monthly basis rather than a weekly basis (for the same money) are more heavily hit for more taxes due to our "progressive tax" system. It's utter bul*****.

Now I can understand that it's likely that a poorer person might need resources more than a rich person, but I don't buy that either. A rich person is going to demand the same social services of police, medical, schooling, etc. that a poor or a middle-income person is going to use.

For example: One person has one car, and another person has 4 cars. He can't drive all 4 cars at the same time, so he's not using a publicly-funded service anymore than a the other person does. It's impossible. A poor family of eight doesn't need more than one police officer to check on a household break-in any more than a rich couple of two does. Why should a well-off person have to pay teriffic sums of money for services he doesn't use in any sort of greater quantity?

Estate taxes? That's money my grandparents invested to keep the economy and our nation growing, keeping money in stock and other investments. They earned and invested every penny they could, and they also inherited nothing of monetary value from their ancestors. When the time comes to
leave it family, it's taxed all over again. It's like a fee for being lucky, fortunate, and doing what the economy needs to be prosperous in the first place.

Taxes on bank interest on bonds: WTF! I saved post-taxed money to protect me from bad investments, and to insure banks in turn so that they could make money from loans in return. Once I cash in savings bonds I'd bought with little return, under the guise of a safe investment that helps out with government expenditure...taxed as well at the end of the year!

So why the heck doesn't everyone pay the same percentage? Who thought this was a great idea, anyhow...or did the super-rich people of the time figure they would make it all up in tax deductions, anyhow?

Damn! I'm so pissed off right now, I'm going to trash some police cars in Grand Theft Auto.
 
pupik
Why did I start this thread? Well:

I received a big 'ol bonus end-of-year bonus check. Usually about 12-15% gets taken out for taxes, the rest is "withholding", and Social Security for my weekly income, gits, bonuses, commission. But since my bonus was about 3x more than what I usually make, the feds took out about 32% in taxes! I figured I crossed over into another tax bracket, but the next week (and still the same year), the weekly check was taxed at the lesser rate I described before. So I'm penalized because I made more in a particular week, not because I made so much for the year.

It's either because the taxes were projected as though you made the amount of your bonus check for the entire year, or it's because you miscalculated how much the feds usually take from your check. Remember, each ADDITIONAL dollar you make in the year is taxed in the highest bracket that your income reaches. The first few thousand dollars you make each year isn't taxed. The next few is taxed at a low percentage, the next at a higher percentage... and so on. So when you get a raise, or a bonus, that money is added on the very top of what you make and is taxed in the largest income bracket your income reaches.

It made me realize that people who get paid on a monthly basis rather than a weekly basis (for the same money) are more heavily hit for more taxes due to our "progressive tax" system. It's utter bul*****.

This isn't true. People who are paid on a monthly basis pay the same amount of tax as people who are paid on a weekly basis if they make the same amount. It doesn't matter how big the paycheck is, only how much it adds up to at the end of the year.

Now I can understand that it's likely that a poorer person might need resources more than a rich person, but I don't buy that either. A rich person is going to demand the same social services of police, medical, schooling, etc. that a poor or a middle-income person is going to use.

For example: One person has one car, and another person has 4 cars. He can't drive all 4 cars at the same time, so he's not using a publicly-funded service anymore than a the other person does. It's impossible. A poor family of eight doesn't need more than one police officer to check on a household break-in any more than a rich couple of two does. Why should a well-off person have to pay teriffic sums of money for services he doesn't use in any sort of greater quantity?

There isn't an answer for this. Rich people tend to actually use less government services than poor people do. Poor people tend to rely on unemployment benefits, minimum wage, overtime laws, welfare, low-income subsidized housing, subsidized student loans, public defenders, police, fire, and a whole host of other government sponsored programs. They also tend to use roads more becaues they can't afford to live close to work - that's the same reason they tend to pollute more, especially if they're driving an older car.

None of this can be disputed, it's all fact. Poor people rely more on government services than the rich by a long shot. But that doesn't stop people from expecting the rich to overpay... and they do. The top 5% of earners pays over half of all income tax. That's right, 1/20th of the population pays the majority of taxes.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/250.html

So why the heck doesn't everyone pay the same percentage? Who thought this was a great idea, anyhow...or did the super-rich people of the time figure they would make it all up in tax deductions, anyhow?

This is easy. Politicans thought this was a great idea. There are more poor people in this country than rich (it makes sense). If money was easy for everyone to get, then everyone would get it and it wouldn't be worth anything. Politicians can get more votes if they give money to the poor and tax the rich. You get more votes if you screw 1/20th of the population in favor of the other 19/20ths.

Is it fair? No. Is it constitutional? Arguably not. Would the founding fathers approve? Certainly not, they made income tax illegal. The bottom line is that most people are willing to accept money no matter who it is that got unfairly screwed out of it. Greed, when it blinds people from morality, is what has allowed democracy to turn into a tyranny of the majority. In any democracy the rights of the minorty must be protected (in this case property rights), or they will be trampled. That's the reason we have a bill of rights and a constitution. Too bad we aren't pay any attention to those documents anymore.
 
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