Andalucía - New Course Maker + Free Roam?
- Thread starter ChicoMaloXD
- 281 comments
- 38,437 views
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- 8,239
- United Kingdom
It's all very well and good having this huge area to play about in, but unless there's actually anything there to interact with then it all becomes pretty pointless. Just look at the map for Fuel and you soon realise that most of the area is made up of open water, salt pans, impenetrable forest and barren desert. There's only one major settlement, if you can call it that. It's really quite dull.
- 28,470
- Windsor, Ontario, Canada
- Johnnypenso
Even at 1 meg/ sq. km, you're talking 10 gigs to do 100 x 100 km and 1 meg won't accurately reproduce a sq. km of real landscape. I'm guessing there has to be a lot of autogen scenery in there as in FSX, with the main roads and major scenery modelled and the rest a kind of random fill in, otherwise it won't fit. Still that will be good enough if done right even if you can only use the roads provided as track for a point to point or a closed circuit.
- 8,723
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I think that's in the pic you capped from the trailer. I found that image back then, but forgot to post it.
Nice to see you bringing the goods again. 👍
My take is that Ronda, the "hand made" course-picker location, is of the order of "tens of square kilometres" (Silverstone reveal), whilst the course-generator locations could practically be infinite if there were no need to preserve any of it anywhere (just full-procedural mode, keep driving, keep getting new road). Because we're probably going to be able to share these again, and import GPS traces (perhaps), there needs to be a finite size.
It's funny, I saw things like this occurring at different points on the track each lap (usually after several laps online) back when GT5 launched, and knew immediately what it meant - streaming. I only dreamed that PD would do something like these large open areas, and now it seems they actually are!
Check the 10km x 10km picture. You can fit the Nurburgring area almost 1000 times in the total 100km x 100km area!
I have not calculated the Nurburgring area, someone knows?, but I'm sure that is very close to 1/10 of the total area of 10km x 10km = 100 km².
To me something has been wrong in that translation or a mistake on the meaning of km² by someone, Kaz or Translator.
Given it seems to occupy ~60% of the linear size of the 10 km square, I'd say the area of a square bounding the Nürburgring is something like 35 km². Ten times that is obviously 350 km² - that's almost 19 km on a side. I don't think Kaz was too far off; 50 km x 50 km seems plausible to me (for course generator locations only) - although that would fit the 35 km² Nürburgring 70 times (100 x 100 km can hold 285 of them). It seems likely Kaz was only thinking of the linear (one-dimensional) "size" of the Nürburgring, rather than its actual area (because squared quantities are not really intuitive to most people).
- 916
This is all very strange. TBH I don't even know why they have gone down this road with it. All anybody wanted was a much greater level of control over the course generator, and I'm slightly concerned that all they are doing is increasing the maximum length.
Ridiculously long courses are okay for messing about with, but as actual circuits you would play online, they're not good. Who would want to have to learn a new Nurburgring Nordschleife EVERY time you went online in order to have an actual car-race, let alone a circuit 10 times that long? I'll bet people would say "I would" but really you wouldn't, not after the first week. It would get old quickly.
If they're taking rallying seriously this might make some sense, as long as they take every part of it seriously, including things like pace notes, but for creating circuits for actual online racing it's just unnecessary.
Ridiculously long courses are okay for messing about with, but as actual circuits you would play online, they're not good. Who would want to have to learn a new Nurburgring Nordschleife EVERY time you went online in order to have an actual car-race, let alone a circuit 10 times that long? I'll bet people would say "I would" but really you wouldn't, not after the first week. It would get old quickly.
If they're taking rallying seriously this might make some sense, as long as they take every part of it seriously, including things like pace notes, but for creating circuits for actual online racing it's just unnecessary.
- 8,723
TDU did it, so why can't a lowly PD GT6?
Not some generated landscape either, Ibiza/Hawai - with 3D trees as well
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vsx9cEd3Rg
Well, yes; but in those cases, it was the entire game. I never expected to get these sorts of areas and the usual GT loadout. Honestly, this and the general idea behind "Vision Gran Turismo" (not those concept cars, rather where does the name itself come from?!) is causing my brain to bug out!
Firstly, Ronda is all real roads. Secondly, the course generator algorithm is said to have been improved. Quite in what way remains to be seen.
It's not about learning tracks, either. Rally, for a start, is about adapting to the roads as you go (pace notes are not a requirement, historically, but are obviously a huge advantage, assuming they're accurate). GT driving was always all about the "unknown".
Way back when, people regularly, properly raced over massive distances (not just in little circles). Everyone's just gone soft in the interim - sure, people died, but where's the sense of adventure gone?!
(I jest, obviously - however, I'm unlikely to endanger anyone's life by driving in a game)
- 13,895
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Well, yes; but in those cases, it was the entire game. I never expected to get these sorts of areas and the usual GT loadout. Honestly, this and the general idea behind "Vision Gran Turismo" (not those concept cars, rather where does the name itself come from?!) is causing my brain to bug out!
Well, people have been asking the question why there are so few tracks added to the list from GT5. This may be the answer.
In GT5 they made 20+ full premium tracks. It depends a bit on how you count it, but it was a lot.
In GT6 they've made...I haven't been counting. I know the announcement was seven more, but are we past that now? Anyway, not nearly as many.
Seems odd, unless they only did a few new tracks and spent all their time making these course creator areas. Then it sort of makes sense.
Of course, there's always a danger trying to read sense into these things, but it's worth a shot!
- 4,481
- Vancouver, BC
- GTP_Grand_Prix
Well, people have been asking the question why there are so few tracks added to the list from GT5. This may be the answer.
In GT5 they made 20+ full premium tracks. It depends a bit on how you count it, but it was a lot.
In GT6 they've made...I haven't been counting. I know the announcement was seven more, but are we past that now? Anyway, not nearly as many.
Seems odd, unless they only did a few new tracks and spent all their time making these course creator areas. Then it sort of makes sense.
Of course, there's always a danger trying to read sense into these things, but it's worth a shot!
Perhaps they have upgraded some current tracks to premium as well? Deep Forest, Trial Mountain and Cote d'Azur really needed it.
- 1,468
- Carrollton, GA
- thaSTIGroe
- 613
- TWNTYB_4ME
- F Caris
That is the city of Ronda in Malaga.
Is it me or does any one else think that looks a lot like the bridge in to town from the Puss In Boots movie?
Dmarc_Atl
(Banned)
- 1,463
I wasn't referring to disc space, I meant it would basically be a whole new game in itself lol.
- 4,548
- Australia
Agreed 100%.
It will be interesting to see if it is included for rallying, since PD have never done it well. Maybe it's a turning point, but I would've thought some PD-designed stages and more track customisation options would be a smarter idea than creating a virtual area the size of a country.
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- 8,723
That is not necessarily what's happened. This larger figure of 2500 km2 may only be for course creator locations (Eifel, Toscana etc.) whilst Ronda / Andalucía could be significantly smaller. The idea is surely to give us more freedom to make what we want. Kaz has commented that the course maker is significantly different, will allow people to lay their tracks out as they see fit, and the algorithm is new (implying the generator hasn't been binned, but there is at least one new way of making tracks).
I'm expecting a bit of blurring of distinction between location types, what with Ronda being photo-mode and course picker capable (hopefully "free roam", too). There's the picture of the Dino in the tunnel at SSR5 at night with no driver and no lights. There's all the trailers (car promotions) with cars driving on de-barriered versions of city tracks (Madrid, Rome, London). Then there's the images and video of cars driving in photomode locations, too.
It seems that the game is moving towards "locations" with multiple uses. Couple that with a more flexible online system, and options should be in plentiful supply.
Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
I had forgot about this picture and adds more fuel to my thoughts in the previous page.
Note the tens of square kilometers (10km x 10km = 100km², 7km x 7km = 49km²), not hundreds, not thousands.
People better be cautious with the hype until more details are confirmed, to me the above sheet and the Nurburgring area comparisson are enought proofs of some wording/translation mistake in the 100km x 100km claim made in the Games-Con conference.
And again, I would be the first person happy to be wrong with this.
Note the tens of square kilometers (10km x 10km = 100km², 7km x 7km = 49km²), not hundreds, not thousands.
People better be cautious with the hype until more details are confirmed, to me the above sheet and the Nurburgring area comparisson are enought proofs of some wording/translation mistake in the 100km x 100km claim made in the Games-Con conference.
And again, I would be the first person happy to be wrong with this.
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- 13,895
- Adelaide
- Neomone
Except that Andreas confirmed with Kaz and Translator-san personally that the 100x100km was the correct translation. Kaz added that it might only end up being 50x50km, but that the general idea was correct.
It's not a claim. It is the statement of the creator of the game, with confirmation that it's not a mistake. Any hype is the direct result of PD's statements.
- 7,369
- Houston, TX
- ryandude2448
If you guys want to see what all you could do with 100x100, go to the "GT6 @ gamescom" thread. Somewhere right before the middle pages I posted some ideas of what you could theoretically do with 10000 sq km. I'll post some new numbers if it's 50x50 later tonight
Zer0
(Banned)
- 1,624
Well the official sheet is there, the area is expressed in square kilometers (not in km x km) and in tens (not in hundreds or in thousands).
If the editor had a total area between 100km x 100km = 10,000 square kilometers and 50km x 50km = 2,500 square kilometers the tens of square kilometers in the sheet would not make sense.
My point is that the expression square kilometers was incorrectly translated from japanese to english, so the reason of the repetitive use of "km x km" to mean "square kilometers" in all the spoken interviews and confirmations.
"100km x 100km" when they would really mean 100km² and "50km x 50km" when they would really mean 50km²
- 13,895
- Adelaide
- Neomone
So, you have a slide from a presentation. Could be correct, could be a typo. No confirmation attempted, as far as I know.
On the other side, you have an interpreted statement during a presentation. Could be correct, could be a mistake.
That statement was then reinforced by someone going to the translator and speaker and deliberately asking if it was correct. And emphasizing to them that what they were saying was really, really enormous, and they still maintained that it was correct.
Maybe you're right. Maybe it's only tens of square kilometers. But for me, frankly the evidence that it's thousands of square kilometers is stronger than the evidence that it's only tens. Interpreters screw up occasionally, but not when they have time to provide a considered and accurate answer, as when Andreas reconfirmed what he had said.
Thousands of square kilometers not technically impossible, or even really that radical when you consider what goes on in other genres of games. It would still be massively impressive, but this is simply an example of using existing technologies in a new application.
On the other side, you have an interpreted statement during a presentation. Could be correct, could be a mistake.
That statement was then reinforced by someone going to the translator and speaker and deliberately asking if it was correct. And emphasizing to them that what they were saying was really, really enormous, and they still maintained that it was correct.
Maybe you're right. Maybe it's only tens of square kilometers. But for me, frankly the evidence that it's thousands of square kilometers is stronger than the evidence that it's only tens. Interpreters screw up occasionally, but not when they have time to provide a considered and accurate answer, as when Andreas reconfirmed what he had said.
Thousands of square kilometers not technically impossible, or even really that radical when you consider what goes on in other genres of games. It would still be massively impressive, but this is simply an example of using existing technologies in a new application.
- 1,748
- vspectra06
- vspectra06
Kaz talked a lot about optimization for GT6, so I don't doubt their graphics engine is capable of real-time lighting and weather for the big track creator locations. Kaz even mentioned he wanted to make all previous tracks to have time change but it wasn't possible, which I'm assuming is due to development time constraints.
GT6 is completely different to Rallisport Challenge 2 in that the lighting is all pre-baked in Rallisport, and in GT6 it's real-time which is more taxing on the hardware. And weather, especially the rain effects, in Rallisport aren't really visually apparent, with very little particle effects. They just add drops to the screen without actual rain drop particles falling in the game, so again, completely different way of doing weather compared to Gran Turismo.
- 4,548
- Australia
There are two points that I think add to the confusion.
First is that slide, saying "several tens of square kilometres".
Second is Kaz saying (second hand from that Andreas guy) that you can fit the Nurburgring ten times in that area. As the Nurburgring is 16sqkm, this would mean an area of 160sqkm, which is "several tens of square kilometres". An odd statement considering that if a 100km x 100km area is used, you could fit the Nurburgring 625 times in that area.
They are both extremely strange points to make considering PD rarely misses a chance to talk up their numbers.
- 2,948
- Austria
- GTP_SnowCrash
What the sheet in the presentation should have said, was "tens of kilometres, squared". Kaz has been asked and it's clarified. The fact that he said you could fit the Nürburgring in 10 times, was not a prepared statement, but an estimate.
The inside of the Nürburgring might be covering an area of 16sqkm, but a square area around it would at least have 7-8 km on each side (you need surroundings as well), so you would look at about 50sqkm to begin with. Bearing in mind that what Kaz said was just an estimate, you're a lot closer to the 50x50km that's been mentioned.
- 13,895
- Adelaide
- Neomone
It's a fair point, and it's also slightly odd that they haven't taken the opportunity to solidly confirm this stuff with a press release type thing, whether on the official website or elsewhere.
While I don't really want to describe the information as second-hand, because it's coming from the horse's mouth (if you'll excuse the expression), it's not exactly down in black and white.
It's not like they can't know it's a big deal, if this isn't their trump card I'd like to see what is. They must know that the public would be interested, yet they leave it as this somewhat ambiguous announcement, which can honestly be interpreted in a number of ways. One answer will turn out to be right, but at the moment anyone could be reasonably justified believing anything from 10 square kilometers to 10,000+ square kilometers.
That's bad information management, and bad marketing.
- 7,830
- U S A
- Tetsumura
- Nigel Fox
CCJ, I'm not sure what you're saying. Andreas did say that Andalucia is both a Photo Mode location and a Course Maker location. The indication is that either many of the locations in CM2 are these massive areas, if not all of them. Or that there is one insanely large area that spans a number of terrain types, from snowy mountain areas all the way to desert scrub. Or some variation.
Whatever the case really is, it indicates a wonderful playfield for those of us up on the possibilities in CM1 taken to the next level, and something which will draw in the curious to have a go who might not have wanted to in GT5.
Whatever the case really is, it indicates a wonderful playfield for those of us up on the possibilities in CM1 taken to the next level, and something which will draw in the curious to have a go who might not have wanted to in GT5.
