Any Interest in a Community League Site?

[CerealKiller]

Hi - this is an area I've been interested in for some time... great to see people are making some moves.

Don't know if this will help or not, but some time back Game Battles ran a competition in MAG. At the time there was no way in MAG to co-ordinate inter-clan matches. Instead of the usual method for running a competition, GB used people's PSNid to track their change in XP earned over a time period. To do this they were granted direct access to the Zipper Interactive servers to get the information.

What I'm basically saying is that there is a precedent but it involves getting access to the Polyphony Digital servers to extract the information. The language barrier here is going to be huge and unfortunately I really do think Sony will be of little assistance in getting this to happen. I truly hope I'm wrong about that!

That's interesting that Zipper did that. I have been quite convinced that PD will not be offering any kind of progrematic API for fetching race results, just given the things they tend to focus on and their secretive nature. I suppose stranger things have happened though and it may be worth a quick ping to see if they respond. It would definitely help things.

 

[Midboss]

Additionally I'm not yet sure how to solve the problem of larger organizations who wish to (a) have various concurrent leagues for different types of racing, and (b) wish to segregate their membership based on skill. These are two of the biggest outstanding unknowns for me at this time.!

Perhaps you could add a hierarchy. Have Organization at the high level. Under each organization, you could have several leagues and under each league you could have 1 or more divisions. For example:

GTP Organization
  Nascar
    Div A
    Div B
    Div C
  Go Carts
    Div A
    Div B
  Rally
    Div A
    Div B
    Div C
    Rookie

I guess it would be a manual process to move players between divisions unless you could define how many people should be in each division and have the scoring algorithm automatically do the moves based on performance.

The problem of how to score individual performances seems to be pretty tricky. I prefer systems like ELO but that only works well in 1v1 type games. I cannot think of a good solution at this time but I think it would have to be average based. For example you have player A that is average but plays all of the time and player B that is really good but doesn't get as much gaming time in. If the rankings are based on just points, then the average racer is ranked above the really good racer.

 

[PKR_KARTRACER96]

For GT5P, we have been using a few things to make this work. First we have all drivers submit a Q time for the next event. Once the dead line has been reached, the times are sorted and we make up the divisions. So if there are 18 drivers, we will have 3 div. of 6. To set the grid, we use the PP system to place the drivers in the proper position. So at a 700pp event, pole will set thier pp to 694, 2nd at 695 etc.....Doing this has 2 effects. 1) everyone is grided in the proper position. and 2) Makes for closer racing. We run as many races that we can fit in a 2hr window. The finishing positions are recorded for each race and a average finishing position is created. we then post the results for all to see. Now we hope that GT5 will have a Q system in place so that the pp level will be the same for all. Time will tell on this one.
We do have a groupe of 7 that set up the events, take care of points and the everyday job of keeping things running. Now below us are "hosts" and they will be taking care of different events once GT5 comes out. eg: I'll be taking care of Karting events and the driving school.(Yes we have a system set up to help new drivers) And I will also be taking care of the day to day running of the league. Once the full game comes out, we will be able to set up each division of racing. With 1000+ cars to choose from, there should be some great racing.

 

[Midboss]

I have been thinking about the scoring issue and I cannot think of a better way than the average finish that you mentioned. The only way I can think to improve upon it is to somehow weigh the result against the competition level of the other racers in each individual race. i.e. getting 3rd against a strong field of opponents should be worth more than getting 3rd against an average group of opponents. This is likely too much work to do manually so it would probably need to be done in code. May be more effort than somebody would want to do though.

 

[PKR_KARTRACER96]

With our system, if you finish first in Div2 you are 7th overall.

 

[CerealKiller]

I have been thinking about the scoring issue and I cannot think of a better way than the average finish that you mentioned. The only way I can think to improve upon it is to somehow weigh the result against the competition level of the other racers in each individual race. i.e. getting 3rd against a strong field of opponents should be worth more than getting 3rd against an average group of opponents. This is likely too much work to do manually so it would probably need to be done in code. May be more effort than somebody would want to do though.

It is a tricky problem to solve isn't it.

If we could just come up with the formula I'm pretty sure we could plug it into the code. Some of the ideas I've toyed with but can't see through to completion:

Each season, treat everyone on equal footing at the start. As soon as points start getting accumulated split the races based on the standings so the top people are racing each other. Over time presumably abnormal results would work themselves out. The higher races would be worth slightly more points than the lesser ones. I've never seen this in play though so not sure how fair it would end up being in reality. (nor do I know exactly how to do the points)

Also toyed with the idea of a rating system where your rating changes depending on who you beat and lose too. Beating someone rated much higher would be worth quite a few points, beating someone rated lower would be worth very little. This wouldn't really determine a season winner but rather might be used as a qualification criteria in a big racing organization to be allowed in certain leagues. After that perhaps you could just split the field randomly and assign points uniformly. This could be used for something like the divisions system GTP uses.

Similarly we could even do a qualification based division split, but that's not really representative of racing results.

 

[GyverX]

For Me the racing is in the Le Mans series and the endurance racing. That is were I love to race. 12 laps on the Nurburgring would be awesome. None AI racers on the most difficult track on the world. In any case, why couldn't we use the point system that is in place for real world racing and customize it for a 16 player race? The big problem is how to place drivers. Who gets the pole position? I really do not think much can be done at this point until we know more about the online aspect of the game and what you can and can not do. I would really like to see PD come out with some sort of white paper for just the online aspect so online gaming sites like this one and others can start making preparations for the Nov 2nd Release. In any case... Why couldn't you use what is already there for a point system with the real racing rules and points?

Thanks for reading
G

 

[CerealKiller]

For Me the racing is in the Le Mans series and the endurance racing. That is were I love to race. 12 laps on the Nurburgring would be awesome. None AI racers on the most difficult track on the world. In any case, why couldn't we use the point system that is in place for real world racing and customize it for a 16 player race? The big problem is how to place drivers. Who gets the pole position? I really do not think much can be done at this point until we know more about the online aspect of the game and what you can and can not do. I would really like to see PD come out with some sort of white paper for just the online aspect so online gaming sites like this one and others can start making preparations for the Nov 2nd Release. In any case... Why couldn't you use what is already there for a point system with the real racing rules and points?

Thanks for reading
G

If you're dealing with a single grid a simple points system is no problem, but if you're trying to run a league with more than 16 people you have to figure out how to split the field up into actual races, and how many points for each position in each race. Right now it's just splitting everyone randomly and giving out points evenly, which may be the best you can do. It would be nice though to have similarly skilled players racing together, and more points awarded for beating a more difficult field. Accounting for that is the tricky part I think.

 

[GyverX]

If you're dealing with a single grid a simple points system is no problem, but if you're trying to run a league with more than 16 people you have to figure out how to split the field up into actual races, and how many points for each position in each race. Right now it's just splitting everyone randomly and giving out points evenly, which may be the best you can do. It would be nice though to have similarly skilled players racing together, and more points awarded for beating a more difficult field. Accounting for that is the tricky part I think.

They may be the only thing you can do but if you are dealing with just a league then that becomes an internal situation for the league members to decide. But if you are running a series (ALMS) then you would have to have your league compete in order to place with in that series with other leagues. Exactly what are we talking about here? Is this a web site to be created for Leagues or Race Series?

 

[CerealKiller]

They may be the only thing you can do but if you are dealing with just a league then that becomes an internal situation for the league members to decide. But if you are running a series (ALMS) then you would have to have your league compete in order to place with in that series with other leagues. Exactly what are we talking about here? Is this a web site to be created for Leagues or Race Series?

Talking about this prototype site where users can run their own league: http://97.107.129.93:3000

So these leagues can be larger than 16 members, right now when an event is ready to be scheduled the field is split up into races randomly (biggest possible to still fit everyone in), and points are static.

The question is, what scoring strategies could you use to split up the field into races that keep similarly skilled members together, and to give more points for defeating a more difficult field.

I'm starting to lean towards the idea of a rating system. Something like starting every league member with an initial rating of say 1000, then working out a formula where each race you gain/lose points depending on who you beat/lose to, where beating someone rated higher is worth more points than beating someone rated lower. Then we use these ratings to determine who is qualified to take part in a particular season, and once inside that season continue splitting the field randomly and giving out points equally for each race.

 

[GyverX]

I'm starting to lean towards the idea of a rating system. Something like starting every league member with an initial rating of say 1000, then working out a formula where each race you gain/lose points depending on who you beat/lose to, where beating someone rated higher is worth more points than beating someone rated lower. Then we use these ratings to determine who is qualified to take part in a particular season, and once inside that season continue splitting the field randomly and giving out points equally for each race.

Might sound silly but could you us the same rules to ranking with billiards?

Looking at it Im not sure it would work. but here it goes.
Taking an example from the following link. you could have each player and new player run 5 to 10 laps (what ever works best for a league or the track) then take those times for each time trail and average it out. then rank it out. Ranking can be placed with in a certain number of "Time Pockets" (first thing that came to mind to call it)

For Nurburgring:
8 Min - 9 min Pro
9 min - 10 min Class A (the Clarkson Pocket)
10 min - 11 min Class B
11 min - 12 min Class C
12 min - 13 min Class D

And so on.. These is all just made up but the "Clarkson Pocket" is something I made up from Top Gear, when Jeremy Clarkson did 9:58 at Nurburging.

The times can be realistic as well. Take the best times from the actual track (Track Pedia) and use the top track times and use those for the "pro" rankings. and then go from there.

The Billiards Link

If there is anything I can help with Let me know. Im not sure how I can help, I have no idea what it is you are needing. Shoot me a PM

 

[LeftyWright69]

I don’t know about all the stuff you guys are using as examples as what to do, but I do know what I have experienced in the past doing it for real. Maybe there is some logic in my 2 cents.

In moto-x it was engine size and run what ya brung, no one was turned away. They would have double row starts if they had to so that everyone could race. They would use an experience model as a factor for allowing you to race against others of equal experience, beginner, novice, amateur, expert, pro. Once you were an expert in moto you could never go back, you were branded for life. Everyone would race 2 motos. If you were an expert racing moto and wanted to race Enduro or Scrambles or what ever they would allow you to drop down one class and you would compete as an amateur etc.

In speedway they would use a scratch and handicap system with the use of the experience model, div 3, div 2, div1 (pro). There could only be 18 racers in each division each night and you would race a min. of 2 times. Only the winner of the lower div’s could race next week, everyone else would go to the back of the line to race next week if there were more then 18 signed up for that div. The feeder system would populate the grid of 18 if the class had more then 18 registered in it.

In motorcycle road racing they used engine size and or where your bike was at as far as how modified it was. For the club racing level you would start on the grid where you finished the last race. If it was your first race you would start at the back of your class, my first race I started in 65th place.

In the car racing I did, it was a car classification and engine size as well as the number of cylinders, 4 cyl, 8cyl, stock or mod or outlaw. They used time trials to set the grid and no one was turned away, they would just add more divisions. They would use qualifiers to set the mains where as you would have to finish in the top 2 spots to graduate to the next faster mains or you would race in one qualifier and one main event for the night and go home, everyone would race at least twice. Lower main winners would start behind the faster guys and keep winning until you ended up in the A main if you were lucky enough or fast enough. There were trophy dashes that were only applicable to the 4 fastest time trial lap times. And their dash points would add to the yearly total for the track championship.

As far as GT5 goes if you can’t set the grid as to where each driver is to start then you are no better then the luck of the draw garbage that Prolog uses on line or what Shift uses online.

 

[GyverX]

As far as GT5 goes if you can’t set the grid as to where each driver is to start then you are no better then the luck of the draw garbage that Prolog uses on line or what Shift uses online.

I think that is our biggest hurdle... The Unknown! Hopefully TGS will remedy most - if not all - of those problems. But Any kind of ranking system can be put into place now. How to get those results for ranking rolls back to the underlying problem. Not Knowing!

 

[Reims_]

I think this site needs a gaming ladder system. Most major sites have them. Eg: www.cybergamer.com.au rather than organising matches/races through the forum it's all automated in these ladders.

Just a thought.

 

[MrPing]

Hi All. I thought I should add this here since we are organizing a league in our dear Gaming site, we are trying to make it as casual or as hardcore as people want, with an experienced Sim Race Driver under the Helm.

Since the Game has not lanched yet, we are still open for suggestions and comments and we will do our best to set up a fun league for newcomers and veterans.

www.nextgg.com



Hi fellow gamers,

Just wanted to let you guys know that NGG has set up a GT5 ladder and league for tournaments and race nights. All you need to do is sign up and join the ladder of your choice. The ladder keeps track of all your wins/losses and gives you a rank. People can challenge you or your team and we are looking at putting together some prizes. So what are you waiting for? Sign up now!

BTW: Admin - NGG supports a heap of gaming communities around the web and we are more than happy to add your community to our official links page - Just PM me!

 

[dessy]

There are a few problems with a simple ladder system that mean it wont apply very well to a Racing League series. Positions on the CG ladder are decided by your most recent result rather than your overall win/loss record.

The idea for the Racing League is to have the same 16 people racing in each grade for race points. The issues are how to do the grading initially. Once its running, a promotion/relegation system can be implemented and can he handled through the registrations at the start of each season.

A more effective model than the typical ladder method is the system used by Virgin Gaming (www.virgingaming.com) which locks registrations for each league to people of certain skill level (open, beginner, average, expert etc) and can also lock applications to people based on their player reputation. This system looks like it requires a LOT of coding though and I think detracts from the 'Community' sysetm that CerealKiller is proposing here.

If PD aren't going to release information about how pole positioning and qualification for custom races will work, we will just have to 'suck it and see' once the game comes out.

There is the change that we can have all the competitors in a room spectating each other as they do a Hot Lap to determine grid position, but this would be time consuming and tedious...

 

[Preacher85]

What about a 2 weeks before the site goes live, have a hotlap competition to determine the divisions for racers.

You take 1 track, and 3 cars - FF, MR and 4WD, run the hotlaps on each car per player, calculate the 'points' or just use the average time to position that racer in whichever division.

It would be a fairly accurate starting point. Of course the replys for each car would have to be saved and verified, or take a random verification pick if you suddlenly find there are hundreds of entries.

After that, let the site go live and the rankings will take care of themselves. To verify positions in actual races you could have 1 or more spectators watching who are scheduled for the next race. This of course would also mean we have virtual stewards aswells

As for starting positions in the races, we'll have to wait and see, and if we cant change it there is'nt much we can do about it. But on a per division basis, you may only have 1 second seperating 16 drivers, then it will come down to purely driving skill, pressure driving, and the random errors that happens during a race. I'm not 100% convinced, that using the PP system to position drivers is a good thing, 16 drivers means 1 driver will have 16PP less than pole position, which could = different tires, more downforce, more raw power etc, I beleive that's an unfair advantage, even if the driver in pole is fast enough for it to not make much of a difference or merit it.


Preach

 

[PKR_KARTRACER96]

The PP system worked well for GT5P, but we have our fingers crossed that GT5 will have a proper system in place. TOCA 3 had a good system and I hope that it works in the same way.

 

[Shigegaki]

Would be nice to have another community event, GTP, team events, etc. I'm in!

 

[DaMorgs]

Hi Guys,

I'm also from www.nextgg.com and will be working with MrPing to get our league up and running. We are currently looking at several options. For the more 'casual' racers or for the occasional 'bit on the side' we will run the ladder system where it is a case of make a challenge and go for it, much like the FPS system.

However, we will also be running a more serious league with the appropriate points system etc that you would expect in a racing series.

@Preacher85

What about a 2 weeks before the site goes live, have a hotlap competition to determine the divisions for racers.

We will be a 'selection process' something similar to that, final details are yet to be decided. A main reason for doing this would be numbers of drivers. If we only manage 10 for the first series it would not be necessary.

We are an Australian based site so for some (I dare say most) of you we really wouldn't be able to accommodate you due to times etc. However, later down the track we are looking at 'Inter-League' races. So perhaps when you guys are up and running too, we could all get together for some team racing every few months?

Any questions/suggestions you might have feel free to PM myself or MrPing. Our PSN IDs are:

DaMorgs
MrPing25

See you on the track!

 

[CerealKiller]

Thanks for all the feedback, working on another update for the site now, going to keep that scoring nice and simple within a league, and eventually build out a larger structure like a club (which leagues could then belong to), and the club would have tools available for sorting out all it's members into which leagues they were qualified to enter. Once you're in a league, we assume everyone's on an equal foot. Club admins could perhaps view the final standings at the end of a season and promote/demote the top 10% or something.

The hotlap suggestions for divisions are good, probably good enough, very easy to do as well. It'd be nice to determine where you should race based on race results though as I imagine in some cases you could hotlap very well and race very poor. Gotta start somewhere though!

Will post an update as soon as I get the new updates done and deployed. Will have much better league management, settings for events, and improved race results entry.

 

[MrPing]

Thanks for all the feedback, working on another update for the site now, going to keep that scoring nice and simple within a league, and eventually build out a larger structure like a club (which leagues could then belong to), and the club would have tools available for sorting out all it's members into which leagues they were qualified to enter. Once you're in a league, we assume everyone's on an equal foot. Club admins could perhaps view the final standings at the end of a season and promote/demote the top 10% or something.

The hotlap suggestions for divisions are good, probably good enough, very easy to do as well. It'd be nice to determine where you should race based on race results though as I imagine in some cases you could hotlap very well and race very poor. Gotta start somewhere though!

Will post an update as soon as I get the new updates done and deployed. Will have much better league management, settings for events, and improved race results entry.

Hi CK, I wos wondering if you could help us out, as per my post above we are trying to start a league for GT5 in the Australia/NZ region, and would like to know how you're running the system.

We are trying to use our ladder system, so as you know, it does not work for racing, so we have to go to the manual way of doing things and managing it, we are thinking a bit smaller than you and more friendly to the casual crowd with a place for the hardcore guys as well.

We are basically trying to set up as you describe a "club" were the causals can race when they feel like it (by registering for a race) and the harcore can be on a weekly race series, with a driving school and training days to help people that are scared about GT's learning curve and frustrating realism and get all the racers into a community.

Thanks for any help you can provide to us.

 

[Sephy]

Very interested in this!

Doing it by car class like SuperGT, DTM, Formula makes sense but for everything else then drivetrain configuration (FWD, RWD, AWD) and/or engine sizes should be determined for events.

 

[CerealKiller]

Just pushed some new code to the site: http://97.107.129.93:3000/

- Big layout overhaul.
- Added more event settings: PP, tires, weather.
- Added approvals to join a league.
- Added league admin page, currently just lists pending requests to join.
- Can now view, assign, and remove roles within your league on the members page.
- Hopefully simpler process for creating a league season and adding events to it.
- Some work on race screens and results.

I also added a couple testing features, on the league members page you'll see a link to join 50 test users to your league. And on the event page you'll see an "auto-register entire league" link to bring them all to an event.

Next up going to work some on the results reporting screens, add ability to enter practice/quali/race "best" laps, and try to get the scoring and leaderboards into better shape.

Have at it!

 

[Daverytimes]

Just found this site and i think is an awesome site to keep track of leaderboard

LINK: http://www.granturismocup.com/leaderboard/

Hows the site coming along Cerealkiller.

 

[CerealKiller]

Just found this site and i think is an awesome site to keep track of leaderboard

LINK: http://www.granturismocup.com/leaderboard/

Hows the site coming along Cerealkiller.

Going good, pretty big push of changes in my previous post. Been distracted this week with F1 2010 but next two additions on my list are tracking some race/lap times, and then an overhaul of the points system to get it working well, even if it is simplistic at the start.