Apocalypse now

[Raf Laureys]

It looks like the actions against Michelin were a louzy rumour so we can all look forward to the next GP in peace I guess. On www.grandprix.com , Mr Mosley himself gives a statement where he points that out ( together with some very ridiculous other options to "save" the race, but that's just my opinion)

 

[EvilToast]

well that pretty much sinks the conspiracy theory.

 

[Raf Laureys]

well that pretty much sinks the conspiracy theory.

You can make of it what you like. Todt didn't want to have a race and I understand his point, an eazy chance to recover 18 points thanks to Michelins problems but the FIA let it happen... A few questions are still left unanswered though but Ferrari-fans will close their eyes on those ones anyway.

 

[snypa]

You can make of it what you like. Todt didn't want to have a race and I understand his point, an eazy chance to recover 18 points thanks to Michelins problems but the FIA let it happen... A few questions are still left unanswered though but Ferrari-fans will close their eyes on those ones anyway.

Please developp your points. As for now you didn't prove anything at all about your conspiracy theory.
We're not blind, we're ready to discuss, but on facts, not just on subjective feelings.

Now, you want to ask questions, here is one :
- if you talk about Ferrari / FIA conspiration, how do you explain that the FIA made some drastic rules changes in 2005, while ferrari had dominated the 2004 Season ? If their goal was (like you try to prove) to maintain ferrari at the top level, they only had to not change anything.

 

[Raf Laureys]

Please developp your points. As for now you didn't prove anything at all about your conspiracy theory.
We're not blind, we're ready to discuss, but on facts, not just on subjective feelings.

Now, you want to ask questions, here is one :
- if you talk about Ferrari / FIA conspiration, how do you explain that the FIA made some drastic rules changes in 2005, while ferrari had dominated the 2004 Season ? If their goal was (like you try to prove) to maintain ferrari at the top level, they only had to not change anything.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. Last year, a lot of people stopped watching, following the season and although other teams could have closed the gap to Ferrari the FIA felt the need for changes, I guess because the sudden drop in spectatornumbers was felt in their pocket. This year things are a bit different. The rumour (wich by now seemed to be untrue) that the FIA was going to take further actions against Michelin and its clients caused me to state that that would be taking things too far and the only reason for that could be the addition of Ferrari and MS as added title-contenders for this year whereas before Indy their chances were not hopeless but certainly less than they are now. Better a battle with 3 than 2 if you like. That's only how far my so called "conspiracy-theory" goes on this one. Now how about MS leaving the pits in Monaco, putting his left wheels over the line ? How about MS pushing Heidfeld onto the grass in Adelaide ? He even admitted he was wrong there, still no actions or penalties. MS has pushed Alonso onto the grass once in Silverstone in a VERY dangerous move at very high speed, still no actions against him. I know he is not the only one doing such things but he seems to get away with much more than the others and that makes me feel how I feel. And don't come and tell me the Ferraris were racing to the flag in Indy, Barichello was told to hold back once again. Are team orders allowed or am I missing something?

 

[snypa]

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. Last year, a lot of people stopped watching, following the season and although other teams could have closed the gap to Ferrari the FIA felt the need for changes, I guess because the sudden drop in spectatornumbers was felt in their pocket. This year things are a bit different. The rumour (wich by now seemed to be untrue) that the FIA was going to take further actions against Michelin and its clients caused me to state that that would be taking things too far and the only reason for that could be the addition of Ferrari and MS as added title-contenders for this year whereas before Indy their chances were not hopeless but certainly less than they are now. Better a battle with 3 than 2 if you like. That's only how far my so called "conspiracy-theory" goes on this one. Now how about MS leaving the pits in Monaco, putting his left wheels over the line ? How about MS pushing Heidfeld onto the grass in Adelaide ? He even admitted he was wrong there, still no actions or penalties. MS has pushed Alonso onto the grass once in Silverstone in a VERY dangerous move at very high speed, still no actions against him. I know he is not the only one doing such things but he seems to get away with much more than the others and that makes me feel how I feel. And don't come and tell me the Ferraris were racing to the flag in Indy, Barichello was told to hold back once again. Are team orders allowed or am I missing something?

If you say now that your 'conspiracy theory was "limited", well, check your posts again, here is one of yours :

It's amazing what they are trying to come up with to get MS and Ferrari back in the fight for the title. It's all a matter of money. They ( Ferrari and MS) do attract big crowds in Italy and Germany who'd pay big money to see the GP's. Why do we have 2 races in Germany and 2 in Italy ? Ferrari should be punished for giving teamorders in the US GP but then again they always get away with anything for some years now. MS driving Heidfeld off in Australia this year is a another nice example. Montoya gets punished for every move he makes.

Don't you think you went too far ?

Now, about what you said about Michael, you only focalize on him :
here are the FACTS :

- MS was wrong in Australia. The incident was classified as an incident.
- What about fisico in Malaysia against Weber? The mistake was quite the same, the officials stated as an incident too.
- Weber crashed in Montoya in the Nurburgring, after having make a huge mistake too, there was no blaming.

Now, do you think each time a driver makes a mistake he should be penalized ? As for JPM in Monaco, what he did to ralf was Intentional (it was not a question of protecting his place), that's why he was blamed.
I've never said MS was an angel, he's a warrior, always to the limit, sometimes beyond, but it's far too easy too say the officials act in a different way towards him.
About Monaco, it's a question of how you see it, I watched the tape and too me, the wheel was on the line, not outside, but it's just my point of view. Just for the story, I was in the French GP2002, and Michael had been penalized during the race for this, like Coulthard, no difference was made.
As for the team rules, what about Mac Laren in Canada ? Ferrari is not alone. The problem of rubens is that he never managed to impose himself.
MS would have attempted something in indy, and would surely succeed, like he did in 2004. But Rubens tried..... and missed.

Now, if thinking that Michael, ferrari and the FIA represent the dark side of the strength makes you live better, that's fine, but things are a little more complex, sorry.

 

[EvilToast]

If you say now that your 'conspiracy theory was "limited", well, check your posts again, here is one of yours :


Don't you think you went too far ?

Now, about what you said about Michael, you only focalize on him :
here are the FACTS :

- MS was wrong in Australia. The incident was classified as an incident.
- What about fisico in Malaysia against Weber? The mistake was quite the same, the officials stated as an incident too.
- Weber crashed in Montoya in the Nurburgring, after having make a huge mistake too, there was no blaming.

Now, do you think each time a driver makes a mistake he should be penalized ? As for JPM in Monaco, what he did to ralf was Intentional (it was not a question of protecting his place), that's why he was blamed.
I've never said MS was an angel, he's a warrior, always to the limit, sometimes beyond, but it's far too easy too say the officials act in a different way towards him.
About Monaco, it's a question of how you see it, I watched the tape and too me, the wheel was on the line, not outside, but it's just my point of view. Just for the story, I was in the French GP2002, and Michael had been penalized during the race for this, like Coulthard, no difference was made.
As for the team rules, what about Mac Laren in Canada ? Ferrari is not alone. The problem of rubens is that he never managed to impose himself.
MS would have attempted something in indy, and would surely succeed, like he did in 2004. But Rubens tried..... and missed.

Now, if thinking that Michael, ferrari and the FIA represent the dark side of the strength makes you live better, that's fine, but things are a little more complex, sorry.

well said.

 

[Raf Laureys]

If you say now that your 'conspiracy theory was "limited", well, check your posts again, here is one of yours :


Don't you think you went too far ?

Now, about what you said about Michael, you only focalize on him :
here are the FACTS :

- MS was wrong in Australia. The incident was classified as an incident.
- What about fisico in Malaysia against Weber? The mistake was quite the same, the officials stated as an incident too.
- Weber crashed in Montoya in the Nurburgring, after having make a huge mistake too, there was no blaming.

Now, do you think each time a driver makes a mistake he should be penalized ? As for JPM in Monaco, what he did to ralf was Intentional (it was not a question of protecting his place), that's why he was blamed.
I've never said MS was an angel, he's a warrior, always to the limit, sometimes beyond, but it's far too easy too say the officials act in a different way towards him.
About Monaco, it's a question of how you see it, I watched the tape and too me, the wheel was on the line, not outside, but it's just my point of view. Just for the story, I was in the French GP2002, and Michael had been penalized during the race for this, like Coulthard, no difference was made.
As for the team rules, what about Mac Laren in Canada ? Ferrari is not alone. The problem of rubens is that he never managed to impose himself.
MS would have attempted something in indy, and would surely succeed, like he did in 2004. But Rubens tried..... and missed.

Now, if thinking that Michael, ferrari and the FIA represent the dark side of the strength makes you live better, that's fine, but things are a little more complex, sorry.

Thanks for sharing your opinion and I agree that MS is a "warrior" sometimes on the limit, sometimes beyond. This is how I see it . The incident in Australia is very different than the one with Fisico and Webber. Michael saw Heidfeld coming and dit a brutal move down the inside leaving no room at all for Heidfeld forcing him on the grass. Heidfeld hit MS because of that. Both Fisico and Webber left room for each other, Fisico only braked too late on the dirty part of the track and carried straight on into webber, this is what I would call an incident. Michael didn't leave any room for Heidfeld, so this is not just an incident in my opinion. As for Webber and Montoya, that's just a simple First-corner crash, I would classify that one as an incident too. Montoya was rightfully punished in Monaco, he must learn to control himself, I agree with you there. But MS had his wheels over the line, leaving the pits, so if the rules on that issue are still the same than in 2002 he should have had a penalty. That makes two missed penalties and we haven't reached mid-season yet. I am sorry but I do not see how you can state Mc-Laren applied teamrules in Canada. Kimi was first into the pits and Montoya had his "error" right after that. At Indy MS and RB had a bit of a dice until RB was closing in on MS. Than we saw Ross doing a bit of talking and RB was backing-off immediately. No further comment on that one. I am not thinking Ferrari and MS are at the dark side but MS has made countless unfair moves in the past. That's one thing, the other is that the FIA is giving him too much room to play. I don't mind hard racing or one team or driver being dominant but I want things to be fair.

 

[katana87]

Time to sit back and relax, this is going to be a long one. I'm betting (50) USD on snypa.

IA

 

[snypa]

Thanks for sharing your opinion and I agree that MS is a "warrior" sometimes on the limit, sometimes beyond. This is how I see it . The incident in Australia is very different than the one with Fisico and Webber. Michael saw Heidfeld coming and dit a brutal move down the inside leaving no room at all for Heidfeld forcing him on the grass. Heidfeld hit MS because of that. Both Fisico and Webber left room for each other, Fisico only braked too late on the dirty part of the track and carried straight on into webber, this is what I would call an incident. Michael didn't leave any room for Heidfeld, so this is not just an incident in my opinion. As for Webber and Montoya, that's just a simple First-corner crash, I would classify that one as an incident too. Montoya was rightfully punished in Monaco, he must learn to control himself, I agree with you there. But MS had his wheels over the line, leaving the pits, so if the rules on that issue are still the same than in 2002 he should have had a penalty. That makes two missed penalties and we haven't reached mid-season yet. I am sorry but I do not see how you can state Mc-Laren applied teamrules in Canada. Kimi was first into the pits and Montoya had his "error" right after that. At Indy MS and RB had a bit of a dice until RB was closing in on MS. Than we saw Ross doing a bit of talking and RB was backing-off immediately. No further comment on that one. I am not thinking Ferrari and MS are at the dark side but MS has made countless unfair moves in the past. That's one thing, the other is that the FIA is giving him too much room to play. I don't mind hard racing or one team or driver being dominant but I want things to be fair.

Ok, I'm pleased to see that we can discuss this.
If I agree with you to say Michael's move was bad in Australia, to me, Fisico's move was quite the same, with same results. I mean, I don't think Michael's move was intentional, just awkward. Michael had just left the pits, his tires were cold and he saw heidfeld too late. At worse, Michael should have been warned, but a penalty for that seems hard to me.

About Mac laren in Canada, I don't want to state 100% there was a teamrule, but you have to admit it's a possibility. If Kimi who were just a few seconds behind JPM managed to come back in the pits, why didn't JPM ? Well, on this case, we'll never know because of course, mac laren extinguished the fire then. After that, JPM made his silly mistake (red lights burnt), and he's 100% faulty on this action.

As for Ferrari's indy race, I find quit logic to establish team rules after 80% of the race, especially when there is no other car , and after your 2 cars were close to crash together ! (Imagine the 2 Ferraris crashing at this moment, wasting 18points and a victory to Jordan !!) . I know the FIA has banned it, but you will never be able to control this in reality. More generally speaking, Ferrari is not the only team to apply teamrules. I won't make a long list of historic facts, but if you're interested, you can search in the F1 forums, some of us talked about this topic few weeks ago.

One of the strenght of Michael is that he's able to be very close to what is allowed, even if it's sometimes borderline. Ralf is usually more precautious, while JPM usually crosses the red line....
I aggree with you to admit that some of Michael's moves were not elegant, nevertheless, he's not the only one : Webber is harsh too, Fernando did a very hard move on Coulthard in 2003, and there are others.
Also, remember that Michael was punished in 1997 by the FIA when he did his horrible move on JV.
Now, if you want to discuss of where the limit should be placed, this is a difficult topic.
I also wanted to add that Senna, in the past, was doing such moves, and even worse (like deciding to go straight in Prost's ferrari in the first hairpin of 1st lap in Suzuka in 1990, gaining the championship with this), and was much less attacked than MS.

 

[Raf Laureys]

Ok, I'm pleased to see that we can discuss this.
If I agree with you to say Michael's move was bad in Australia, to me, Fisico's move was quite the same, with same results. I mean, I don't think Michael's move was intentional, just awkward. Michael had just left the pits, his tires were cold and he saw heidfeld too late. At worse, Michael should have been warned, but a penalty for that seems hard to me.

About Mac laren in Canada, I don't want to state 100% there was a teamrule, but you have to admit it's a possibility. If Kimi who were just a few seconds behind JPM managed to come back in the pits, why didn't JPM ? Well, on this case, we'll never know because of course, mac laren extinguished the fire then. After that, JPM made his silly mistake (red lights burnt), and he's 100% faulty on this action.

As for Ferrari's indy race, I find quit logic to establish team rules after 80% of the race, especially when there is no other car , and after your 2 cars were close to crash together ! (Imagine the 2 Ferraris crashing at this moment, wasting 18points and a victory to Jordan !!) . I know the FIA has banned it, but you will never be able to control this in reality. More generally speaking, Ferrari is not the only team to apply teamrules. I won't make a long list of historic facts, but if you're interested, you can search in the F1 forums, some of us talked about this topic few weeks ago.

One of the strenght of Michael is that he's able to be very close to what is allowed, even if it's sometimes borderline. Ralf is usually more precautious, while JPM usually crosses the red line....
I aggree with you to admit that some of Michael's moves were not elegant, nevertheless, he's not the only one : Webber is harsh too, Fernando did a very hard move on Coulthard in 2003, and there are others.
Also, remember that Michael was punished in 1997 by the FIA when he did his horrible move on JV.
Now, if you want to discuss of where the limit should be placed, this is a difficult topic.
I also wanted to add that Senna, in the past, was doing such moves, and even worse (like deciding to go straight in Prost's ferrari in the first hairpin of 1st lap in Suzuka in 1990, gaining the championship with this), and was much less attacked than MS.

It is indeed a difficult topic. and I am not saying others should get away with it either. About Prost and Senna, I tought about them too. They were both great drivers and had a lot of charisma and their rivalery got a bit out of hand you could say. In Japan in 1990 Senna, despite having the pole was obliged to start from the dirty side of the track and following the events at Suzuka the previous year where he felt he was robbed from a fair shot at the title by Balestre he was furious and did what he did. I'm glad they have let it go and were back on speaking terms by the beginning of 94. The thing with MS is, I 've seen too much of him. I don't know of any driver who's made such a big number of dirty moves. It's just him, he's a hard racer but in wheel to wheel battles he's often overreacting. Another great example of this is when he did cut right across Montoya in the opening lap of the Brazilian GP in a completely insane move. A bit like with Heidfeld this year but at much higher speed at the beginning of the brakingzone. Montoya only lost his frontwing but he got very close to getting airborn over MS's reartire. Again nobody felt the need to punish MS for that. The list goes on and on. A few laps before Hakkinen made his famous move around Zonta in Spa MS had also pushed him onto the grass in a similar move as the one described before, I remember Hakkinen being Furious after the race going into a heated up discussion with Michael. He forced Hill onto the grass in Spa when they were driving side by side etc etc . Just plain dirty driving. I could have been a Shumy-fan but after Adelaide '94 where he first clipped the wall and then took Hill out I had enough.