Appropriate N-Tires for Different Types of Cars to Simulate Real Life Control?

[niky]

Economy would only go on cars like the Prius and Inspire hybrids. Most other non-sports cars would come with N2s.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to equate 1/4 mile times with real times based on tires. With lower-powered and FF cars, the 1/4 mile times are close with S-tires, and way off with Ns. And lap times are always going to be faster on the computer. Merely because we have no fear.

I think, though, that it's not a big deal to most people who just get into GT for the race, as those are the people who would retrofit their cars with N3s in real-life. The MAIN PROBLEM is, there are too many different levels of N3. I would NOT classify a Goodyear Eagle or a Bridgestone Potenza (stock on Mazda) as a comfort tire, but neither is as sticky as a Michelin Pilot (stock on M3)... which is nowhere near as sticky as a Pilot Sport Cup (whatever the hell it's called, stock on CSL) tire, which is little more than an S-tire with street treads.

We need an N4 and N5 class!

 

[Gabkicks]

I stopped playing gt4 for a few weeks and just started up again... I'd started to forget why i was pissed at PD but now i remember,...


lol, if i'd just read my post a few weeks earlier

 

[colnago]

...The MAIN PROBLEM is, there are too many different levels of N3. I would NOT classify a Goodyear Eagle or a Bridgestone Potenza (stock on Mazda) as a comfort tire, but neither is as sticky as a Michelin Pilot (stock on M3)... which is nowhere near as sticky as a Pilot Sport Cup (whatever the hell it's called, stock on CSL) tire, which is little more than an S-tire with street treads.

We need an N4 and N5 class!

There are a lot of people who would argue that the Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 and/or Potenza S-03 are every bit as good, if not better, than Michelin Pilot Sports (which I have). Either way you slice it, the general concensus would put the (3) tires are among the "Top 5 or 6" in Performance Street tires (N3 in GT world).

Now Pilot Sport "Cups" are a "track tire" that would have to go in the "S-class" of GT tires:

Developed for drivers who participate in autocross and track events, the Michelin Pilot Sport Cup is a DOT legal street competition radial that is designed to increase driving excitement by providing class winning traction and handling.

On the outside, the Pilot Sport Cup uses dual zone tread compounds with the outer shoulder compound optimized for dry handling and the inside shoulder compound focused on wet traction. These tread compounds are molded into a 6/32” deep asymmetric tread design that features a massive outer shoulder rib to further enhance steering response and cornering stability while circumferential grooves and independent tread blocks are used on the inner portion of the tread design to enhance damp track traction. Internally, the Pilot Sport Cup features two, full-width steel belts reinforced with Michelin’s Banded At Zero (BAZ) technology to stiffen the tread area to help prevent the contact area from distorting during aggressive acceleration, cornering and braking. The Pilot Sport Cup radial’s basic sidewall materials and architecture have been carried forward from Michelin’s Pilot Sport line of Max Performance tires.

 

[niky]

Sorry for that... there are, though, many different levels of tire quality within each brand... ...I posted without checking spec/prices. me.

Point is, I can buy "N3" tires for just about 500$, whereas top of the line "N3" tires would cost me about the same as in GT4. And they would STILL be street tires with treadwear ability into the thousands of kms instead of the hundreds.

And yeah, the Pilot Sport Cup would make a mess of things, right? I think they should go as S2, while normal M3 tires would go as S1.

So, do we make that sim list?

 

[venomGT4]

i'll stick with my r-5's on my fully tuned evo viii mr...runnin 2 laps at tsukuba, i have a best time of like 53.199. i can tell that is way off of what i should be running so i may have to do a little experimenting with some different tires.

 

[chinny]

I know its slightly off topic, but when you guys post pictures how about posting thumbnails, its getting ridiculous having to scroll left and right just to see what you guys have written. This goes for people who quote a whole thread including pictures.
Not everyone has broadband, indeed some of us are still on 28k connections due to distance and its a bit unfair to have to load 3 or 4 of the same post with huge pictures.

 

[colnago]

Sorry for that... there are, though, many different levels of tire quality within each brand... ...I posted without checking spec/prices. me.

Point is, I can buy "N3" tires for just about 500$, whereas top of the line "N3" tires would cost me about the same as in GT4. And they would STILL be street tires with treadwear ability into the thousands of kms instead of the hundreds...

I'm not bustin' your chops. But I had to think about it...yes you're right. A tire like Bridgestone RE071s, while really good, are better than "N2s", but not as good as Bridgestone S-03s. I just look at the GT classification system as "best of class" tire. That is "best of N1, best of N3", etc. What "N3" tires can you get for $500? Is that "per tire" or "set of (4)"? If it's "per tire", you need to shop around!

And yeah, the Pilot Sport Cup would make a mess of things, right? I think they should go as S2, while normal M3 tires would go as S1.

So, do we make that sim list?

As for Pilot Sport "Cups", I "think" they need to be "warmed up" before they are "useful". Does the M3 (in real life) come with "Cups" or regular "Pilot Sports"? I couldn't find any info, but if they are "regular Pilot Sports", they would have to be an "N3". Even with the "M3 Competition Package":

http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/F92E4F82-9458-436A-BEA6-FC46D98369FA/0/M3_Compt_Pkg_.pdf

...those look like the "regular" Pilot Sports on my GTI. Definately not a "track tire".


For the S1-S3, "I" consider them to be different compounds (i.e. Hard, Medium, Soft) of SCCA autocross/track/DOT legal type tires, like the ones I posted pics of earlier. While the "R" tires would be straight-up racing slicks like the Goodyear and Yokohamas used in say the "ALMS" and "Rolex" series.

 

[colnago]

I know its slightly off topic, but when you guys post pictures how about posting thumbnails, its getting ridiculous having to scroll left and right just to see what you guys have written. This goes for people who quote a whole thread including pictures...

....sorry. The pics I posted are only 6k in size and 250x250 pixels in dimension. On my 14" laptop screen, they appear as 2"x2" pictures. Maybe if you increase your resolution...may not have the need to "scroll"? I don't know...just a suggestion.

 

[niky]

I'm not bustin' your chops. But I had to think about it...yes you're right. A tire like Bridgestone RE071s, while really good, are better than "N2s", but not as good as Bridgestone S-03s. I just look at the GT classification system as "best of class" tire. That is "best of N1, best of N3", etc. What "N3" tires can you get for $500? Is that "per tire" or "set of (4)"? If it's "per tire", you need to shop around!






As for Pilot Sport "Cups", I "think" they need to be "warmed up" before they are "useful". Does the M3 (in real life) come with "Cups" or regular "Pilot Sports"? I couldn't find any info, but if they are "regular Pilot Sports", they would have to be an "N3". Even with the "M3 Competition Package":

http://www.bmwusa.com/NR/rdonlyres/F92E4F82-9458-436A-BEA6-FC46D98369FA/0/M3_Compt_Pkg_.pdf

...those look like the "regular" Pilot Sports on my GTI. Definately not a "track tire".


For the S1-S3, "I" consider them to be different compounds (i.e. Hard, Medium, Soft) of SCCA autocross/track/DOT legal type tires, like the ones I posted pics of earlier. While the "R" tires would be straight-up racing slicks like the Goodyear and Yokohamas used in say the "ALMS" and "Rolex" series.

Yeah, well tread patterns in photomode indicate as much. S-tires have the same pattern you would see on autocross tires, while N's have patterns roughly simulating their "type" of tire.

The BMW CSL (not available in the US) comes stock on Cups. The "regular" M3 comes on "regular" Pilot Sports. It's been mentioned by a lot of testers that they feel the tires alone make a huge difference in the performance of the CSL over the regular M3. But I think you have to sign a waiver at BMW... something about them not being safe in the rain... OR in the cold. Sounds like out-and-out race tires, to me.

 

[colnago]

...The BMW CSL (not available in the US) comes stock on Cups. The "regular" M3 comes on "regular" Pilot Sports. It's been mentioned by a lot of testers that they feel the tires alone make a huge difference in the performance of the CSL over the regular M3. But I think you have to sign a waiver at BMW... something about them not being safe in the rain... OR in the cold. Sounds like out-and-out race tires, to me.

"Cups" or "S" series tires can get you to the track, through a session, and home again, but definately not back and forth to work everyday. "S" tires may be spotted on mini trailers hitched to "sporty" cars like this:

 

[s12ken]

i used to have AD048s on my S12 Silvia.... grips like a MOFO! much like S3 tires in GT...
Currently i have NEOVA AD07s or my Mazda 626 they feel close to S2 or S1s i'm not particularly sure.

 

[thenucleardart]

I was doing a comparison of lap times on the Nurburgring in GT4 and Enthusia, to see if N tires made GT4's times closer to Enthusia's. I was noticing, that while they are supposed to be more realistic, the N tires understeer horribly. Especially N1s. N2s aren't as bad, but they are pretty bad. I did get closer times to Enthusia though.

So are they really anymore realistic?

 

[JTSnooks]

Wow, this has been discussed hundreds of times. Yes, they're more realistic, and yes, they understeer. Most cars do understeer when pushed hard in real life. It's been found that N1s are economy-style tires, N2s are all-weather quality tires, and N3s are sticky summer-only type performance tires.

 

[thenucleardart]

Sorry about that, I tried searching, but it would only let me search for "tires", because N was to short.

EDIT: Well, nevermind. I just took out a Mazda Demio, and it handled almost exactly like the one on Enthusia.

 

[niky]

"Normal" Tires maybe? Yes, that's a big problem with the search engine. According to many people's observations, lap times are most realistic with N1 tires. But N2-N3 tires will give you the most realistic road-holding, depending on what the car originally came with.

On N1 tires, the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight match their lateral acceleration skidpad numbers from real-life. On N3 tires, they run close to 1 g. On N1 tires, a Dodge Viper runs around .8g around the skidpad, on N3 tires, it matches its real life skidpad numbers (just a tick over 1g).

Original post here... not surprised you couldn't find it... near the end of a very long "fastest road car" thread... http://gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=67010&page=13&pp=20

 

[Ezz777]

I was doing a comparison of lap times on the Nurburgring in GT4 and Enthusia

I am surprised noone has said this, but why are you necessarily taking this 'Enthusia' you speak of as a guideline? surely there are better ways of checking the realism of GT4...

 

[niky]

Plus lap-times aren't a complete measure of realism anyway. The "pucker" factor is different in real-life and between video games... so even if the lines, bumps and physics are micrometer perfect, you won't get a 1:1 correspondence.

 

[Zardoz]

Plus lap-times aren't a complete measure of realism anyway. The "pucker" factor is different in real-life and between video games... so even if the lines, bumps and physics are micrometer perfect, you won't get a 1:1 correspondence.

True, but it would be nice to get a little closer than we are now. On Sarthe I, for instance, we're lapping about 20 seconds faster than we should be.

 

[SimRaceDriver]

My $0.02 about "N" tires...

The only thing N tires give you is a more realistic 'lap time' but what good is that when the car doesn't 'perform/handle' at all near its real counterpart? Case in point, put any N tire on a car, get to the car up to about 30-40mph and the put the brakes on....lightly..and you'll hear those N tires lockup so fast it's pathetic...so while everyone talks about lap times, I use Sport tires on most of the cars I drive, as they offer more 'realism' in how the car handles then any N tire can.

Peace-


SRD

 

[niky]

Actually, N1 for lap times, N2-N3 for grip. As far as car dynamics go, they feel closest on N2-N3, as most cars grip just a little too well on S-Tires.

 

[orubasarot]

...

 

[JasBird]

Hi

After reading a lot of post about what kind of tires are stock of the N tires, and which car should have S tires etc, isn't it possible to just ask PD themself to end all speculations? 💡 I tried finding a way too e-mail them myself without any luck so far. Anyone else?

Also noticed that in Arcade if you select the COMFORT tires they show N2 in the LAP time screen just before you start driving. However if you go to quic-tune they are now called ROAD?

Like most people I think 💡 I suspect the N1 is economy, N2 stock all season and N3 summer only?, but it would be nice to get a clear answer??

Anyways back to point. Anyone wanna try e-mail PD and post result here?

- Bullitt73

 

[DuckRacer]

Hi

After reading a lot of post about what kind of tires are stock of the N tires, and which car should have S tires etc, isn't it possible to just ask PD themself to end all speculations? 💡 I tried finding a way too e-mail them myself without any luck so far. Anyone else?

Also noticed that in Arcade if you select the COMFORT tires they show N2 in the LAP time screen just before you start driving. However if you go to quic-tune they are now called ROAD?

Like most people I think 💡 I suspect the N1 is economy, N2 stock all season and N3 summer only?, but it would be nice to get a clear answer??

Anyways back to point. Anyone wanna try e-mail PD and post result here?

- Bullitt73

1. The day you can get PD to e-mail you back is the day Satan will be iceskating to work.

2. Here's a thread that's related to the topic: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=64932

Duck7892

 

[Touring Mars]

Thanks Duck... by the way, that post was merged into this thread as I didn't want to shut bullitt's new thread without atleast some answers to it, but since this discussion is already here, I thought I'd move the question into this thread....

My opinion, bullitt, is that PD have bigger fish to fry, but there's no harm in trying. If you get an answer, then we'd all like to hear it. But I'm not going to hold my breath...

 

[Ske]

There is definitely something wrong with the relative sideways and forward grip of the tires on GT4, and that's probably why the lap times and drag times are off. Add lack of weather conditions and the real life aspect of danger, and you get higher lap times in general in GT4.

As for the tire classes, N class is definitely road tires (N1 refurbished/cheapo, N2 standard brand quality and N3 high end performance tires), while S class is the road legal semi slick racing tires. Best Motoring commonly refers to these as "S" tires (definitely street legal tires, but only found on high end tuner/race cars and exotics I'd guess)

 

[Tornado]

Taken from http://www.saleen.com/saleen_s7_specs.htm

WHEELS AND TIRES
Saleen forged alloy wheels
Center locking wheel nuts with automatic safety locks:
Front: 19 in. x 9.5 in.
Rear: 20 in. x 12.0 in.
High-performance Pirelli Michelin Pilot Sport PS2
Front 275/30ZR19 Rear 345/30ZR20

Michelin's description of the Pilot Sport PS2:

The Pilot Sport PS2 is a Max Performance Summer tire member of the Michelin Pilot family of low profile, high speed tires. Initially developed for Original Equipment (O.E.) on some of the world's most prestigious sports cars and performance sedans, the Pilot Sport PS2 combines world-class dry road traction, handling and cornering. Some of the first Pilot Sport PS2 O.E. fitments included the BMW Alpina Z8, McLaren SLR and Porsche GT2 & GT3 models. The Pilot Sport PS2 is not intended to be driven in snow.



From a recent tire test from Tire Rack: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testResultsModel.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+PS2

One of the most recent OE-derived Max Performance Summer tires to be expanded into a range of replacement sizes is the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A. Versions of this tire have been fitted to cars from BMW, Ferrari and Mercedes-Benz. To get an understanding of how this tire performs in the real world on vehicles driven everyday, we conducted a Real World Road Ride and Performance Track Drive comparing the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A with the Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 and the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2.

They "classed" the Pilot Sports with Potenzas and GS-D3s, which are "max-performance street tires". Which in the game would "probably" translate into N3s.

The "next step up" would be a street/track tire, or in GT speak "S" class tires, while possible to drive on the street, it's not recommended due to tire degradation. GT4 repeatedly talks about getting heat into the "S" tires...that's generally not associated with street tires.

Fred.The.Baddie stated that he'd use N3's on Super cars...but my 20th Ann. GTI came with Pilot Sports also...so I'm sure any M class BMW could be "realistically" fitted with N3s to simulate "real world".

Yes, but cars like this:

do come with specially made street slicks, so it would probably be S1's or S2's. And what about Corvettes? They can come with two levels of high performance tires: the ones for the Z-51 and the ones for the Z06.

 

[JasBird]

Hey Touring Mars I actually thought about just putting a the post here anyway, but I was afraid it would "dissapear"

So I guess the guys who has the strategy guides etc don't have more info either? But I don't see a problem with PD answering the question if I only could get hold of an e-mail adress to ask them?

Cheers

Bullitt73

 

[Gabkicks]

so basicly we will never find the perfect tires because of a physics and tire modeling flaw.

 

[thenucleardart]

I know Enthusia isn't completely realistic, but the times around the Nurburgring are closer to real life, so I just used it as a reference, because I could compare cars.

 

[JasBird]

I am surprised noone has said this, but why are you necessarily taking this 'Enthusia' you speak of as a guideline? surely there are better ways of checking the realism of GT4...

I assume you havent played Enthusia?

Not sure if you guys read the thread:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=66740&page=1

Also wanna add, that the magazine had a talk with Kazunori Yamauchi at Goodwood included with the article, so I hopefully they talked to him about which tires are most realistic since they talk about real laptimes at the Ring.

In the articel the author says his PS2 lap is done: "on normal road tyres (the most realistic)"