Are Fictional Courses Good for the Gran Turismo Series?

[JohnBM01]

I made a video on it on YouTube... now I want to ask it as a question. Please note that this is not about what tracks you want to see, but are more real-life tracks better for the GT series than looking mostly towards fictional courses, including fictional street courses in real-life locations? The following is my video that I got a few comments to:


"Are Fictional Courses Good for the Gran Turismo Series?"



So here's the non-YouTube reaction of mine. I mention in my video that I like fictional courses for two reasons- creativity from the developer as well as establishing a unique identity. And that's even if a fictional track is based on a real one or has elements of certain real courses. A comment that I got on YouTube was that one person thought the series could progress more towards fictional courses. This, even though knowing that having real-life race courses adds value to playing a game. Think of the reaction when GT4 had the Nürburgring Nordschleife and Circuit de la Sarthe (even though more people care about Nürburgring Nordschleife than Circuit de la Sarthe).

To compliment the prospect of other venue prospects and speculation, here are two other resources of mine:

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT_vGVxCNxU ("GT5: Other International Locales?")
* http://johnsgtspace.blogspot.com/2011/10/future-locales-for-gran-turismo.html (my MASSIVE blog entry in regards to locales around the world as well as various courses)



Do you think that there should be more real-life courses, more fictional courses, or an even mix of both? Comment away!

[UPDATE] To anyone reading this post, thank you for supporting my work! I made many edits to this post to reflect several changes.

 

[Paulie]

I like the even mix of both we have now. As you said having those fictional courses give the game a unique identity, with some of those course now having been in the series the whole time they have developed a fan base even (Grand Valley Speedway seems to be very popular amongst all players). Of course, it's important to have those real tracks too, as people like tracks they can relate to, or might like to see how fast their car can go at that track. There'd be more to it than that I'm sure, but you can see that both kinds of track are important to have.

 

[Tenacious D]

I was pondering this myself a couple of weeks ago, and I was beginning to think perhaps Poly should focus more on real life tracks for the rest of the new courses. But there is one thing where fantasy tracks would shine.

If Kazunori-dono goes crazy and throws a true Career Mode on us, or even loads up GT5 with easy and intermediate courses, fantasy tracks would allow them the luxury of giving us a load of new asphalt to get to know without the expense and trouble of licensing and mapping out an existing course in painstaking detail. Plus as said, it gives GT5 that unique flavor of their artistry, which is very good. I'd love to see many fantasy courses return in GT5 such as Red Rock Valley and the Special Stages. Red Rock should make an excellent F1 course with it's long sweeping curves, and a nice variation from High Speed Ring.

 

[C-ZETA]

Of course they are. They've been with the GT series since GT1, and trust me, do you want them to go away? I don't.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

If they brought back all the fantasy tracks from all GT games, they wouldn´t have to make any more of them IMO.
The tracks that are made at real locations is however a different story. I can imagine PD is going down that route, especially since both Eiger and London falls in that category. Personally, I feel that those tracks gets a little more identity and credibility than the "pure" fantasy tracks like Midfield, Deep Forest or Trail Mountain.

But again, personally, I would prefer real tracks. There are so many amazing circuits out there, that it would almost be a shame not to have them. Think Bathurst, Spa-Francorchamps, Potrero de los Funes, Interlagos, Kyalami, Silverstone, Monza, Road America, Sebring, Donington Park, Imola and so on.

 

[Max_DC]

If I had to choose, I could live without real courses in the next GT. But I couldn't without Trial Mountain, Grand Valley etc.
Of course I like Nurburgring and Tsukuba etc, but those tracks are in every other racing game on this planet.

 

[Raitziger]

GT courses are so legendary at this point and i like them to included. I even dreamed for high speed ring to be IRL and take some nice car in some weekend fun

 

[-ultraflow-]

Yes, fictional courses are good!

👍

 

[JamboGT]

GT without the fictional courses wouldn't be GT in my opinion.

 

[Ghost_drift]

Yes agree the fictional courses are what makes GT, no other game has brilliant tracks like Trial mountain.

But one thin I have just noticed today. PD made there own Infineon race way up in GT4.

Now is it just me or is there far to much Grass in GT4.

 

[balang_479]

Depends what season it is..


Like someone said before, GT wouldnt be GT if it didnt have fictional courses....It would just be another racing sim...

 

[Nicksfix]

They are good for the series , look what they have given us in the past , all good tracks :

Trial mountain
Deep Forest
Midfield
Apricot Hill
Grand Valley
El Capitan
Red Rock Valley

just to name a few ,

👍 YES , they do belong

 

[Jay]

Yes agree the fictional courses are what makes GT, no other game has brilliant tracks like Trial mountain.

But one thin I have just noticed today. PD made there own Infineon race way up in GT4.

Now is it just me or is there far to much Grass in GT4.

Thats obviously summer when the grass has died, when it rains it will go all green again. Tsukuba does exactly the same thing, as balang_479 said it depends on the season.

 

[Cocomoto]

Deep Forest is one of the best tracks in GT series !
I will love if GT5 have it.

 

[Patrik]

The fictional tracks they have made so far should be in GT5, but hey shouldn't create new ones.

 

[Z]

Hopefully with GT5 there will be greater capacity to have many (more) real-life tracks as well as a few of the GT Originals. As others have said, they've made the series what it is.

In cases such as the Test Track or the Beginner Course from GT4, I'd probably disagree. Motorland was a step in the right direction, but a bit too small. On the other hand, Grand Valley, the various Special Stages as well as the rally stages are incredible in the right car.

 

[Aero-R]

The % between fictional ones and real ones may change in the future of the series, but circuits like Seattle, Deep Forest, Autum Ring, Trial Mountain, the 1st version of State Stage R11, Grand Valley and the wet version of Special Stage R5 will live forever in my mind.

I still remember my feelings on 1998 when driving a [R] Dodge Viper RT/10 I found for 1st time that abrupt turn into the Special Stage R11 tunnel... how hard I braked when I saw it. Or the times in which I was trying to control the line with a Ford GT40 in Seattle, approaching every wide section on the turns and enjoying the changes in the asphalt highs. The way in which I enjoyed the apex on the turns of Deep Forest with the legendary Toyota Castrol Supra GT. Also my times with the Mitsubishi GTO LM Edition while doing the Grand Valley endurance race..

Those circuits should be there forever.

 

[Tenacious D]

The fictional tracks they have made so far should be in GT5, but hey shouldn't create new ones.

Well... I don't know about that. Turn 10 isn't renown for their originality, but they did create a course called Blue Mountain I believe, which was Bathhurst-like. It had some very challenging turns over hills which you had to be careful taking, and made for quite a few exciting moments. And there were courses running down Mt Fuji for drift, touge and racing which were very good.

Creating a race course in real life is a serious chore for any business, but with a game developer, the only limit is their imagination. Polyphony has some very talented racing enthusiasts who have a knack for creating a course with a very lifelike feel to it. And like I said above, no licensing, and no limits. I think we'd all welcome some new original tracks to GT5, but I insist that all the tracks from all the GTs should be included first.

 

[C-ZETA]

If I had to choose, I could live without real courses in the next GT. But I couldn't without Trial Mountain, Grand Valley etc.
Of course I like Nurburgring and Tsukuba etc, but those tracks are in every other racing game on this planet.

In the case of there being no real courses, it would be fine, so long as the exception was Laguna Seca because it was the first real circuit to appear in GT, in GT2. It remained the sole real circuit in GT3 as well.

 

[Max_DC]

In the case of there being no real courses, it would be fine, so long as the exception was Laguna Seca because it was the first real circuit to appear in GT, in GT2. It remained the sole real circuit in GT3 as well.

I'm not against real courses, as long as all or almost all fantasy courses are in it's perfectly fine for me to have two dozen real life circuits in GT 5

 

[RedBaron]

PD already showed us how well they can revamp old fantasy track to HD with High Speed Ring. It was so dull and geometric till GT4 and now I'm even going to say that it's one of my favourite tracks with that good lightning, some distinctive curves, decent surroundings and one fantastic replay helicopter view over the dam at the end of the third round.

I like Midfield, Deep Forrest and especially El Capitan so I can't wait to see them in new definition. And they can even make some new ones, but I would rather like to see more and more real circuits of the world as the Spa Francorchamps, Imola, Pikes Peak, Bathurst, Monza, Estoril, Long Beach, Silverstone, Brads Hatch, Sugo and many more are still waiting to be done into GT and raced on my HDTV.

 

[ajprice]

I do hope that GT5 has all of the previous tracks, it would be great to have updated HD versions of Deep Forest, Tahiti Road, Grindelwald etc. If they're all to the quality of High Speed Ring, its good times .

 

[JohnBM01]

Most of you are talking about real courses. Surprised no one mentioned Cote D'Azur, which is essentially the Monaco Grand Prix.

Really, I'm a bit surprised on some of the reactions. I was expecting most of the hardcore sim types to say that there should be much fewer fictional courses. But here's the problem with that, and I think some of you will agree with me... the Gran Turismo series is not focused or devoted to a specific racing series, not even Super GT, though the Super GT cars are commonly featured in GT games. That's what I love about Gran Turismo. You can enjoy racing any kind of car in any kind of series without being completely devoted to one or more specific championships. The ToCA Race Driver series, however, features many real-life circuits including a broad number of real race cars. Some championships have races almost exclusive to a specific series like how exclusive tracks like the Norisring is to DTM or how you could only race tracks like Winton or Hidden Valley in the Australian V8 Supercar Series. Having more real-life courses adds appeal and marketing value to a game. Thing is, do you rely on these to add as much realistic appeal, or do you offer a few more fictional courses to offer a unique challenge to gamers?

Personally, I liked Alpine Ring Raceway from Forza as far as having Forza for perspective. Löwenseering is basically Konami's answer to Grand Valley Speedway. As one person noted in my YouTube video, fictional courses helped Enthusia, so why not GT? Even courses based in real-life locations are fun for the series. Not to start any friction on GTPlanet, but Turn 10 liked GT4's New York that they made their own New York circuit. Only a few differences, and Forza's version features two different layouts. I love Special Stage Route 11 from GT1, but I also love Tokyo R246. Costa di Amalfi is a lovely course as well. Enthusia's Pacific Gateway is a lovely interpretation of beautiful San Francisco. El Capitan is a wonderful track that somewhat serves as a test track for me.

Such fantasy courses offer that kind of identity and uniqueness to a game. I'm surprised I got this many comments on this topic. Keep 'em coming!

 

[JamboGT]

I have no problems with real courses at alll bring them on, though I am not a fan of city circuits(too many 90 degree bends).

There are many circuits I love and would have as any of them as possible but to me the likes of Trial Mountain, Grand Valley, all of the fictional tracks even, in GT are all great and are only a few steps of existing in my eyes!

 

[TECHNIKRS4]

red rock valley is ZOMG

 

[Ardius]

Polyphony's efforts at "fake" tracks so far have been far superior to many real race circuits and city courses, so yes.

I mean, perhaps they should be hired to design the real life new circuits? Tilke has done enough thanks (thinking of horrible Valencia).

 

[JamboGT]

Valencia was such a bore. I don't mind Sepang though but then it was the original tilkedrome.

 

[Hyst]

All I want -

- Include all fictional courses from previous GTs in GT5.
- Make variations to certain courses in the form of 'short' versions.
- Add extra little optional chicanes to the original circuits. We see these in a few of the real life GT4 tracks - Just after the Dunlop tire on Tsukuba, during the long sweeping right before Spoon on Suzuka, on the long sweeping right just after the only 1st gear corner on the older Fujis, and on Infineon, just for example. Adding a couple of these types of chicanes to tracks like Apricot Hill and other original circuits will certainly spice things up in the main mode of GT5. Smaller clubman style championships early in your 'career' might run the new short versions of the tracks with the chicanes, but as you progress more professional championships will revert back to the 'full' courses.
- Add additional parts to existing courses that go outside the original track dimensions. While the short versions I mentioned earlier involve adding little sections of track to create smaller versions of the existing tracks, certain tracks would benefit from adding sections to make the circuit longer. Tracks like Midfield and Opera Paris are good examples, where it would be easy to implement.

If anyone reading this has absolutely no clue what I'm talking about I can MSPaint a few pictures together to make this more clear.

In short, I don't think GT needs any more fantasy courses, they just need to reinvent their current courses in more ways than just having them in HD. Having one or two more fictional courses would be great, but I think the preference at this stage of the game should be given to aquiring more real life courses, and not just flat Japanese tracks either.

EDIT: Kind of irrelevant, but I think it would also be good to add a Complex String-esque infield section to the Test Course, and you could just during testing if you wanted to run the Oval, the Infield, or the Full Course.

 

[JohnBM01]

Quickly... another advantage of a course that's original- you can modify it to make it more interesting. Grand Valley Speedway in GT4 is the most fantastic Grand Valley in ANY GT and worlds better than the GT3 version. I even recommended the chicane coming out of the final tunnel be made a bit easier and more loose than past GTs.

 

[amar212]

Original GT Courses are the BEST.

Trial Mountain, Deep Forest, Red Rock Valley, Rome Night, SS R11 underpass and overapss, Grand Valley, Midfield, Grundenwald, El Capitain, Rome Day, Tokyo, Seoul, Hong Kong, Autumn Ring, Complex String... Just to mention my personal favorites.