are Gt4 physics being redone?

[Zer0]

Advances in console power does not automatically result in better physics so much as simply creating a better physics engine does. Now, sure, you'd be hard pressed to get a Genny to run even the physics engine of GT4, but the advances have been far less than what you are implying.

With the next generation of technology almost upon us, how do you hope to use that to push the envelope of the driving genre?

Kazunori: Let's take the category of car physics: currently in GT4 on the PS2, the calculations for car physics are done sixty times a second, the same as the framerate. But with the next generation coming and higher specifications, we think this could change to 300 times per second or even 600 times per second.

Those changes will be significant in how players relate to car physics, car simulation and feedback.

http://www.computerandvideogames.co...dvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=105605

He says Polyphony is already experimenting with running its current physics simulation at many more cycles per second -- 300 or 600, compared to 60 in GT4 -- and getting impressive results in the process, but current hardware can't handle that and draw a good-looking game at the same time.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zd1up/is_200405/ai_ziff127209

Then we come to car damage. We also planned to implement this feature in GT4 but we found that, technically, we could not do it to a level that satisfied our respect for the Gran Turismo brand.

Unfortunately, due to the technical limitations of the PS2 and the high standards we hold for the GT brand the time was not right to allow everyone to enjoy that with GT4.

http://www.computerandvideogames.co...dvideogames.com/news/news_story.php?id=116051

However Yamauchi-san also tantalisingly confirms that a proper damage model will be implemented for GT5 although he doesn't present any further details,

"The PlayStation 3 is the first piece of hardware allowing photo-realistic computer graphics, and is the first game hardware that can perform calculations for physics simulation to the level of our satisfaction. "

http://www.joystiq.com/2005/10/13/ps3-creating-a-new-world-of-entertainment/

 

[JTSnooks]

Considering the fact that a car's only direct interaction with the road surface is its tires, correct tire-modelling pretty much makes or breaks a sim. What more are you looking for? If you're disappointed with the inertia, weight-transfer, and/or suspension modelling of Enthusia, I would have to disagree, but I can understand if you're disappointed in the inaccurate gearing and/or power specs, which can lead to quarter-mile discrepancies of up to 1-1.5 seconds when compared to the real thing ...then again, that's not really "physics."

By "tire grip/slip", I meant the transition between the two, not necessarily the the overall levels of both. Some things that I dislike and find unrealistic about Enthusia: every car seems to have a 1960s cadillac suspension, the responses of the cars are as if my 7-year old sister were behind the wheel, everything moves very slow (this could be related to the "sense of speed", which has nothing to do with physics, but does a horrible job of covering up flaws), there's too much oversteer in most cars (although I'll admit I haven't driven a wide variety of them...I only played it for a few weeks), and a few other nitpicks, such as it being far too arcadey in feel and presentation (which doesn't really have much to do with the physics other than an oversimplification of your interaction with them). It does do a better job of modelling power oversteer and the like, but the other factors (mainly the feeling of driving in slow-motion) and the extremely smooth roads really take away from the feeling of actually driving a real car. At least for me.

 

[Wolfe]

By "tire grip/slip", I meant the transition between the two, not necessarily the the overall levels of both. Some things that I dislike and find unrealistic about Enthusia: every car seems to have a 1960s cadillac suspension, the responses of the cars are as if my 7-year old sister were behind the wheel, everything moves very slow (this could be related to the "sense of speed", which has nothing to do with physics, but does a horrible job of covering up flaws), there's too much oversteer in most cars (although I'll admit I haven't driven a wide variety of them...I only played it for a few weeks), and a few other nitpicks, such as it being far too arcadey in feel and presentation (which doesn't really have much to do with the physics other than an oversimplification of your interaction with them). It does do a better job of modelling power oversteer and the like, but the other factors (mainly the feeling of driving in slow-motion) and the extremely smooth roads really take away from the feeling of actually driving a real car. At least for me.

- From my observations, the suspension travel in Enthusia is almost spot-on, if a bit exaggerated (but "a bit exaggerated" is better than feeling almost no bodyroll and then being subjected to a drinking-bird-style slow-motion nosedive upon heavy braking, as in GT4), and it is this part of the game that helps it provide me with the greatest sense of driving a car that I've ever gotten from a console game.
- The steering response with the Dual Shock 2 most definitely seems slow, but I've found that it's only a problem if you're used to GT4's hypersensitive steering, and that when you play Enthusia for long enough, you get used to it and can come to appreciate the precision that it can offer.
- The sense of speed is slow, yes, but better than in GT3, and tolerable once you're used to it. I just wish all racing games gave you the option of adjusting the sense of speed like Live for Speed does.
- It may seem like Enthusia's oversteer is too strong, but Live for Speed and real-life experience tell me otherwise. It doesn't help that Enthusia's sense of speed is less-than-satisfactory, and that the game seems to give older cars "older" tires, with less grip. The one caveat with Enthusia's oversteer is that it's a bit too easy to control, particularly in high-speed high-angle situations.
- The poor menus and flat roads were things I learned to deal with in exchange for a driving experience that, for me, out-shone GT4 by a factor of at least 100 to 1, if not greater. It was months before I even touched GT4 again, and I only play it when I need to test something for a "GT4 vs *blank*" rant here on GTP.

Despite my claims that Enthusia is the most realistic sim available on a console (and I believe that it is), I understand that it is not without its faults. Even Live for Speed, which I believe offers the most realistic driving experience available outside of actually driving a car, isn't perfect.

 

[The Vanishing Boy]

-> I like EPR physics, it very close to real life and I like that. But using the D-pad/DS is quite impossible for me to control the car very well. The game wants me to get that DFP, but I can't cough up enough dough.

 

[Tornado]

I find it very hard to beleive that the only reason that GT4 had a physics engine that was outgunned by a 6 year-old PC sim in every aspect was simply because the PS2 wasn't powerful enough. Especially with Enthusia being on the same console yet modeling far more variables than GT4 did. That entire article essentially reads to me "We were too lazy/pressed for time to make the GT4 physics engine work well on the PS2." If it was truely unaccoplishable they would have suck with the (superior) GT3 engine.

 

[Zer0]

I find it very hard to beleive that the only reason that GT4 had a physics engine that was outgunned by a 6 year-old PC sim in every aspect was simply because the PS2 wasn't powerful enough. Especially with Enthusia being on the same console yet modeling far more variables than GT4 did. That entire article essentially reads to me "We were too lazy/pressed for time to make the GT4 physics engine work well on the PS2." If it was truely unaccoplishable they would have suck with the (superior) GT3 engine.

Not the only reason:

current hardware can't handle that and draw a good-looking game at the same time.

*Superior GT3 engine?

 

[Wolfe]

I really need to find more people to +rep so that I'll be able to +rep you again sometime, Toronado.

Not the only reason:

current hardware can't handle that and draw a good-looking game at the same time.

*Superior GT3 engine?

I don't know what you're trying to point out, here. As Toronado mentioned, Enthusia Professional Racing is more sophisticated than GT4, but is Enthusia ugly? I don't think so. In fact, aside from some low-detail textures and unrealistically bright colors, certain aspects of Enthusia's graphics are better than GT4's, most notably the special effects and car models.

Also, if I'm reading your comment right, I would have very gladly taken GT3-quality graphics (which still look great today, and really aren't much worse than GT4's graphics) if that would have meant that GT4 had more-realistic physics.

 

[road kill]

which makes me ask do they plan on revaming the physics of gt4? because i see people saying enthusia did alot more than what gt4 did and its on the same console

so for it being on the ps3 which is superior in every way to the ps2 i see no excuse this time..

i want to see a real sim this time like lfs tire pressure and id like to see the effects of tuning on my car like in lfs... this time if they call it a driving sim they should deliver

 

[red7]

Wow ps3 allowing for 300+ calcs per sec. Wonder how many lfs is pushing. I've gotten used to the sensitivety of my logitech pad and the game is a real trip to play. When your on the edge with the car ( like the xrg t) a whole new level of skill is needed. You really have to feel the car to go fast(wish i had a wheel). Pd will have to atleast approach this .

 

[Zer0]

I don't know what you're trying to point out, here. As Toronado mentioned, Enthusia Professional Racing is more sophisticated than GT4, but is Enthusia ugly? I don't think so.

Enthusia Ugly? nop.
GT4 more polished, more realistic and crisp looking game? Yes.
You had preferred a Virtua Racing gfx style with LFS physics or better on PS2 or Enthusia actual gfx with no so good physics?.. there's limits on a closed hardware that can't be surpassed, balance is the key and the GT series have been always a gfx reference.

Also, if I'm reading your comment right, I would have very gladly taken GT3-quality graphics (which still look great today, and really aren't much worse than GT4's graphics) if that would have meant that GT4 had more-realistic physics.

PS2 was maxed with GT3/Concept, KY said that instead of more hidden power the upgraded graphics of GT4 were thanks to better experienced artist.

*Sorry english not's my first language.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Enthusia Ugly? nop.
GT4 more polished, more realistic and crisp looking game? Yes.
You had preferred a Virtua Racing gfx style with LFS physics or better on PS2 or Enthusia actual gfx with no so good physics?.. there's limits on a closed hardware that can't be surpassed, balance is the key and the GT series have been always a gfx reference.


PS2 was maxed with GT3/Concept, KY said that instead of more hidden power the upgraded graphics of GT4 were thanks to better experienced artist.

*Sorry english not's my first language.

So, if the PS2 was maxed with GT3/Concept, how come Enthusia gfx are equivalent to GT3 gfx, but the physics are better?

You ask if I want Virtua Racing gfx with LFS physics or Enthusia actual gfx with not so good physics. It's a difficult question, but if I go for balance between gfx and physics (on the PS2) I'd say I want Enthusia gfx and Enthusia physics.

And my hope for GT5 (whenever it comes out) is that PD understands better the need for balance between gfx and physics, like the konami guys did on the PS2. So, if the price to pay for "photorealistic" gfx is the same physics as in GT4, my choice would clearly be "forget photorealism and work very hard on the physics of this game".

 

[Wolfe]

Enthusia Ugly? nop.
GT4 more polished, more realistic and crisp looking game? Yes.
You had preferred a Virtua Racing gfx style with LFS physics or better on PS2 or Enthusia actual gfx with no so good physics?.. there's limits on a closed hardware that can't be surpassed, balance is the key and the GT series have been always a gfx reference.

A Virtua Racing graphics style with Live for Speed physics would be a kickass game! 👍 It would be unique and awesomely retro at the same time (you chose the wrong person to ask that question ).

I would also gladly take Enthusia, because even with the "compromise" it makes with its physics (compared to the likes of Live for Speed), it's still a fun, engaging, and believable driving sim. And then, of course, there's the whole "pretty decent graphics" thing.

PS2 was maxed with GT3/Concept, KY said that instead of more hidden power the upgraded graphics of GT4 were thanks to better experienced artist.

That's not what I've heard. Going purely by numbers and hearsay, I remember reading somewhere that GT3 supposedly only used a fraction of the PS2's power -- I think they said somewhere around 20%.

...and even if both GT3 and GT4 maxed the PS2's capabilities, that's kinda pathetic, considering what Polyphony Digital's competitors were able to do with the same hardware. As I've said before with GT4's hardware-limited shortcomings, don't blame Sony, blame PD for not keeping those limitations in mind. I don't know if they simply over-engineered the graphics engine, or if they just don't know how to program efficiently, but GT4 suffered for it.

*Sorry english not's my first language.

I had trouble understanding your post earlier, but you're doing great for someone who learned English as a second language.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I assure you guys that Wolfe isn't my twin brother and that we don't even know each other!

 

[Zer0]

A Virtua Racing graphics style with Live for Speed physics would be a kickass game! 👍 It would be unique and awesomely retro at the same time (you chose the wrong person to ask that question ).

I know but the point is that this game will be good for a minority but don't will be good in order to sell.. and think that I said that this retro experiment would be your actual Enthusia not an alternative game. More games to choose the better that is something that nobody discuss.

I would also gladly take Enthusia, because even with the "compromise" it makes with its physics (compared to the likes of Live for Speed), it's still a fun, engaging, and believable driving sim. And then, of course, there's the whole "pretty decent graphics" thing.

I think the same of GT4.

That's not what I've heard. Going purely by numbers and hearsay, I remember reading somewhere that GT3 supposedly only used a fraction of the PS2's power -- I think they said somewhere around 20%.

That was a test of the game on the "performance analizer", and only on certain puntual aspecs that can be optimized not an overall 20% usage of the PS2, that was a bad misinterpretation. The developers always try to use the 100% of the hardware but by the time this can be improved on some points. Later I try to search the scans with the artists quote referring to GT4.

...and even if both GT3 and GT4 maxed the PS2's capabilities, that's kinda pathetic, considering what Polyphony Digital's competitors were able to do with the same hardware. As I've said before with GT4's hardware-limited shortcomings, don't blame Sony, blame PD for not keeping those limitations in mind. I don't know if they simply over-engineered the graphics engine, or if they just don't know how to program efficiently, but GT4 suffered for it.

Different developers, different approaches. You only need to see the full modeled nurburgring with 6 cars all in memory to see that there's nothing visually like this in the system. Other games can have some aspects better but overall nothing touch this quality.

And my hope for GT5 (whenever it comes out) is that PD understands better the need for balance between gfx and physics, like the konami guys did on the PS2. So, if the price to pay for "photorealistic" gfx is the same physics as in GT4, my choice would clearly be "forget photorealism and work very hard on the physics of this game".

To KY photorealism is an important part for the realism inmersion and I agree with him.

 

[Tenacious D]

If Enthusia had better physics, Konami gave me no way of knowing. The Miata demo (which of course both parts were of a real car, be honest) had the tires squealing at every turn and mash of the pedal. In the game, the tires gave not a peep until after they had lost grip and I was well off the road. And this complaint and others is net wide, it's not just my bias. Plenty of people warned me when I announced I was going to give it a shot.

Polyphony did the job of letting me know how the car felt throughout the envelope and when I frooked up, I learned where. In Enthusia, I had no clue, it's just a guessing game around every turn. I think this level of realism and involvement is reflected in the fact that one of these games is still in production. You can say all you want that the game buying public are a bunch of airheads that don't know perfection when it's right in front of them, but they can't all be, so don't think I'm the only one who's biased here.

 

[Hun200kmh]

If Enthusia had better physics, Konami gave me no way of knowing. The Miata demo (which of course both parts were of a real car, be honest) had the tires squealing at every turn and mash of the pedal. In the game, the tires gave not a peep until after they had lost grip and I was well off the road. And this complaint and others is net wide, it's not just my bias. Plenty of people warned me when I announced I was going to give it a shot.

Polyphony did the job of letting me know how the car felt throughout the envelope and when I frooked up, I learned where. In Enthusia, I had no clue, it's just a guessing game around every turn. I think this level of realism and involvement is reflected in the fact that one of these games is still in production. You can say all you want that the game buying public are a bunch of airheads that don't know perfection when it's right in front of them, but they can't all be, so don't think I'm the only one who's biased here.

I'm sorry to hear that you didn't like Enthusia. Of course I don't agree with you, but I'm not going to argue, because biased discussions lead nowhere. But I think you should watch this video I have just found. I think you will agree that the video isn't biased.


(I don't know how to show the video here, so I'll just post the link to it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKGaC3hz8Ew

 

[Zer0]

But I think you should watch this video I have just found. I think you will agree that the video isn't biased.

Watch you this:

 

[Wolfe]

If Enthusia had better physics, Konami gave me no way of knowing. The Miata demo (which of course both parts were of a real car, be honest) had the tires squealing at every turn and mash of the pedal. In the game, the tires gave not a peep until after they had lost grip and I was well off the road. And this complaint and others is net wide, it's not just my bias. Plenty of people warned me when I announced I was going to give it a shot.

Wait, wait, wait...so you mean to tell me that one of the biggest reasons why you hate Enthusia is because you couldn't figure out that in that Miata demo, the audio for both the real-life and Enthusia footage was taken from the real-life footage, for the sake of maintaining audial continuity between the clips?

It's true that Enthusia's tires don't squeal as much as GT4's do, or as much as some real-life tires do, but (at least on my copy of the game) they do begin to complain when they come close to their traction limits. I have no problems using the squeal to "feel" what the car is doing (then again, I can drive with the speakers muted, too, especially because Enthusia's suspension movement is so communicative). I'm sorry that you can't say the same.

Polyphony did the job of letting me know how the car felt throughout the envelope and when I frooked up, I learned where. In Enthusia, I had no clue, it's just a guessing game around every turn.

You know, I could say the same thing, but the other way around. Perhaps we should stick to more-tangible issues, like specific items in the physics engines.

I think this level of realism and involvement is reflected in the fact that one of these games is still in production. You can say all you want that the game buying public are a bunch of airheads that don't know perfection when it's right in front of them, but they can't all be, so don't think I'm the only one who's biased here.

I wouldn't say that about the game-buying public, primarily because Enthusia isn't perfect. However, I would say that a large portion of the game-buying public (and the general public) consists of a bunch of ignorant morons who know nothing of driving a car to its limits -- and you don't have to do it yourself to have a basic understanding of it -- and believe that Gran Turismo is realistic simply because it's hard to play (and because it says "the Real Driving Simulator" on the box).

Oh, and no one said you're the only one who's biased. Everyone is biased.

Anyway, if you hate Enthusia and can't understand why anyone would disagree with you, that's fine -- my friends and I simply cannot fathom for a moment how anyone could ever believe that GT4 = reality, or the closest you can get to it. Really. It completely confuses us. I try to be respectful about it ('cause I really like the GTP community and its members), but I cannot even begin to imagine where anyone here gets the idea. This isn't the "Enthusia fanboy" in me talking, either, because I've held this notion since the day I bought GT4, a month or two before the Enthusia demo even came out.

Now, if someone said that GT3 = reality, or the closest you can get to it, I could at least understand where they were coming from. I would completely respect their opinion, and make a friendly suggestion that they should try Live for Speed or Enthusia. I would still think that they're wrong, but at least they'd be closer to the truth.



Sometimes I wish there were other GTP members who felt the same way I do about GT4, so that I wouldn't stick out like a extreme left-wing nutjob who's proclaiming that global warming will completely deplete the ozone layer by 2010.

 

[sucahyo]

We can learn some real life suspension using GT4, learn how every change in suspension change the car behaviour. Of course we have to know what GT4 physic engine flaw first.

I won't be surprise if the car still wont flip in GTHD or even GT5. Same lame 45 degree limit for pitch and roll. Even if there is damage, flipping car would be a surprise for me. I try to remove limit in GT2, once the car reach 90 degree, it gone berserk. Too bad, PD should at least increase this limit to 85 degree, since driving rally using this limit feel a lot real.

About realism, I think it's about time PD remove steering aids. I notice that when I am driving Grand Prix Legends with keyboard, on most corner I have to struggle with tapping turn button, to prevent the car going in too much. With GT4 you don't have to worry about this much. If you can make your car balance, you can just press both acceleration and turn button together and wait until exit.

 

[Tenacious D]

Wait, wait, wait...so you mean to tell me that one of the biggest reasons why you hate Enthusia is because you couldn't figure out that in that Miata demo, the audio for both the real-life and Enthusia footage was taken from the real-life footage, for the sake of maintaining audial continuity between the clips?

I don't think you understand. The footage of both parts of the Miata demo are obviously from real life. The scene is the same down to the blades of grass, just digitized to make it look like it's in-game. The game world looks nothing like that, in fact it's closer to GT2 than GT3.

Even then, saying for the sake of argument that the video part was indeed in-game, cheating by using audio from the actual car drive is misrepresenting what they produced. This is like showing Killzone footage and insisting that it's in game video, when it's actually a CG movie. Seeing that footage made me slobber, but then when I started the game, I felt like a huge prank had been played on me.

As for the two videos, those are pretty impressive. Although I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing on the GT4 vs Enthusia one. I guess to show that Enthusia is just as good a drive. It helps that YouTube is horribly compressed to the point all the graphics look the same. I don't know what it is about Enthusia. I fired it up, took an MR2 around the track... or tried to, but something was seriously whacked. It's the first car game I've ever played where the car acted like someone had taken the physics and hacked it in some random ways. It "felt" and acted like... I don't know, Mario Kart or something. Accelleration was weird. Taking corners was... it seemed almost like I was drunk, and that makes me glad I don't drink or drug. Nothing felt right or natural, and leaving the track before the tires began to protest really cheezed me off.

I know a lot of people like Enthusia and Forza both because they go ape over drifting. I'm the opposite. I used to throw my cars around and powerslide everywhere till I hit those longer tire wear races in GT2, and then it hit me... oh yeah, now I have to drive like... I really would drive. What a concept. So now I work at my driving to the point that I rarely squeal the tires. I don't feel I've really won unless I've just made them complain. I know some who have mastered the art of drifting can actually shave tenths off their times, but I just never got into the whole drift thing. People who get bored of driving and racing baffle me.

That GT4 vs Real Life vid was interesting too, although there is a much better one on YT somewhere, of a German racer and someone playing GT4 on the Nurb, and the similarities were uncanny. It was complete and unedited, and it was similar almost to the tree! It was downright eerie.

Another thing about that video, those tire noises were LOUD in that Porsche. Are you guys sure they're too loud in GT4?? After doing some GT after I cranked up tire noise in Forza, it sounded like they were muffled in GT4. I have a feeling someone is misremembering something somewhere.

Anyway, enjoy your drive, lads. I'm going to work on a gothic Japanese RP I'm running this weekend, while I dream now and then of GT HD, Motorstorm and Formula 1 in HD.

 

[road kill]

. I don't know what it is about Enthusia. I fired it up, took an MR2 around the track... or tried to, but something was seriously whacked. It's the first car game I've ever played where the car acted like someone had taken the physics and hacked it in some random ways. It "felt" and acted like... I don't know, Mario Kart or something. Accelleration was weird. Taking corners was... it seemed almost like I was drunk, and that makes me glad I don't drink or drug. Nothing felt right or natural, and leaving the track before the tires began to protest really cheezed me off.

you know i felt the same way playing enthusia its like for some odd reason (take for example a stock 180sx rps13) ok i go to dragon range with the car and im trying to race normally and the car just WANTS to drift.

it jsut doesnt feel realistic to me, without any tuning at all the 180sx feels like its skating on ice in enthusia

its like gt4= some understeer enthusia = mad oversteer i mean its not like it wasnt fun drifting the 180sx around the corners it just didnt feel realistic...

 

[Tornado]

Sometimes I wish there were other GTP members who felt the same way I do about GT4, so that I wouldn't stick out like a extreme left-wing nutjob who's proclaiming that global warming will completely deplete the ozone layer by 2010.

*Waves flag of understanding*

Another thing about that video, those tire noises were LOUD in that Porsche. Are you guys sure they're too loud in GT4?? After doing some GT after I cranked up tire noise in Forza, it sounded like they were muffled in GT4. I have a feeling someone is misremembering something somewhere.

It isn't really because they are too loud, but more because they happen too often. There are many cases in GT4 where it is just rediculous the amount of tire whine you get.

you know i felt the same way playing enthusia its like for some odd reason (take for example a stock 180sx rps13) ok i go to dragon range with the car and im trying to race normally and the car just WANTS to drift.

it jsut doesnt feel realistic to me, without any tuning at all the 180sx feels like its skating on ice in enthusia

You see, the thing is you probably played Enthusia without a wheel. Playing any good simulation with a controller is bound to make you fail, be it Enthusia, Viper Racing or Live For Speed. It is simply too hard to modulate the analog sticks, and unless you are really good at it the D-pad will essentially play like a keyboard. Which means 180 degree (or whatever full lock is) every time you push a direction.
This is why GT4 is such a poor simluation: full lock in any moderately powerful RWD car should bring the rear end around. Hell, you can power oversteer (which is technically another matter entirely, but is another thing GT4 fails at) AE86's, and they don't really have any power to oversteer with.
Enthusia suffers greatly with the Dual Shock, because as a sim with a *good* physics engine, full lock or quickly applied lock will spin a car out as it will in real life. GT3 was so oversteery for a similar reason (though in practice it's applied rather differently). I've seen two real life videos. The one posted by Zer0, and the one with the RUF and BMW 120. The 120 one is sped up and is of a completely different drivetrain. The one posted by Zer0 has two things against it:

1. You can very clearly tell that the Porsche driver in real life applies the throttle to stop the rear tires from skidding. This is something that GT4, despite modeling weight transfer better than GT3, fails miserably at. Adding throttle in the RUF CTR while sliding will not give the rears traction, despite being against everything ever published saying it should.
2. The Porsche driver always has to apply more countersteer than the GT4 driver. Everytime, and after applying countersteer he only has to turn the wheel against the counter steer to striaghten the car out if he countersteered too much. The GT4 driver, despite using the DFP, has to constantly use countersteer for the countersteer to prevent the car form snapping back.

 

[road kill]

actually no i played enthusia with my dfp and i still found enthusia's physics to be way too oversteery

and its funny you mention the whole applying accel to stop the rear from sliding because thats exactly what ive been practicing in gt4 to stop lift off oversteer i dont need..

anyway it is in gt4 but maybe not as obvious

 

[Wolfe]

*Waves flag of understanding*

I thought of you, but I didn't want to assume. Excellent points in your post. Again, I'd give you +rep if I could.

I don't think you understand. The footage of both parts of the Miata demo are obviously from real life. The scene is the same down to the blades of grass, just digitized to make it look like it's in-game. The game world looks nothing like that, in fact it's closer to GT2 than GT3.

Even then, saying for the sake of argument that the video part was indeed in-game, cheating by using audio from the actual car drive is misrepresenting what they produced. This is like showing Killzone footage and insisting that it's in game video, when it's actually a CG movie. Seeing that footage made me slobber, but then when I started the game, I felt like a huge prank had been played on me.

Believe that if you want, but it's immediately apparent to me and many others (even to some people who hate the game, I'm sure) that it's simply the Enthusia Miata being driven in the Enthusia engine, on a course that doesn't actually exist in the game, with the same audio that the real-world video had.

Furthermore, if I were Konami, I'd take your misconception -- of the Enthusia video being a "digitized" version of the real-world video -- as a compliment. Because the Enthusia clips of that video were done using the actual game engine, what you're actually saying is that the game is very realistic, but that you just can't drive in it.

Now, I'm not trying to throw a childish insult at you. Let me explain. Because driving simulators cannot replicate G-forces, have great difficulty replicating steering wheels and pedals that provide realistic feedback, and can only give you a view of the world through a small "window," the ability to drive in detailed simulators depends partially on the driver's experience and approach to understanding car control.

For example, a friend of mine acknowledges the fact that Live for Speed is very realistic, but just can't drive in it, due to the fact that he relies heavily on G-force feedback when driving a real car to its limits. On the other hand, Enthusia is flawed enough to be "easier" than LFS to the point where he can drive in Enthusia. Meanwhile, I rely more on visual cues from suspension movement and the direction my car is headed to get a sense of what the car is doing, which means that Live for Speed's and Enthusia's very impressive suspension modelling (and even moreso, Live for Speed's cockpit view, which moves around due to G-forces) appeal to me greatly, while GT4's sometimes-non-existent and other-times-flawed suspension/visual feedback frustrates me (not to say that GT4's other flaws are also a result of perception).

Perhaps Enthusia just isn't for you or roadkill.

The fact that the video features real Enthusia footage is indisputable, as far as I'm concerned, and truly demonstrates the close, if imperfect, similarities between the behavior of a real car, and that same car in Enthusia. If that cone course was available to me in the actual game, I would gladly recreate the video myself, and upload it for you.

I don't know what it is about Enthusia. I fired it up, took an MR2 around the track... or tried to, but something was seriously whacked. It's the first car game I've ever played where the car acted like someone had taken the physics and hacked it in some random ways. It "felt" and acted like... I don't know, Mario Kart or something. Accelleration was weird. Taking corners was... it seemed almost like I was drunk, and that makes me glad I don't drink or drug. Nothing felt right or natural...

Again, and I hate to repeat this over and over, I can say all of the same things about GT4. As I said above, it simply baffles me how everyone loves the game.

I know a lot of people like Enthusia and Forza both because they go ape over drifting. I'm the opposite. I used to throw my cars around and powerslide everywhere till I hit those longer tire wear races in GT2, and then it hit me... oh yeah, now I have to drive like... I really would drive. What a concept. So now I work at my driving to the point that I rarely squeal the tires. I don't feel I've really won unless I've just made them complain. I know some who have mastered the art of drifting can actually shave tenths off their times, but I just never got into the whole drift thing. People who get bored of driving and racing baffle me.

To me, GT4's flaws go beyond the inability to drift properly, because they influence the way your car moves and feels, and make the game both easier and harder than it should be. Sometimes, you'll do something that would be a big mistake in real life, but GT4 won't care -- like nailing the throttle in the Shelby Cobra at the exit of a corner, or mashing the brakes mid-corner -- and then other times you'll do something that's relatively simple in real life, but much more difficult in GT4 -- like countersteering from a small, minor, accidental slide.

The old Shelby GT350 sounds like a Japanese 4- or 6-cylinder, is as tame as a pet mouse (no matter how rough you are driving it), and leans as much as a modern Porsche through corners (who knew old musclecars had such advanced, stiff suspensions?). The Caterham Fireblade handles like a Mack Truck, and accelerates with all of the ferocity of a lawnmower. Whenever you fully-tune a car and give it über-sticky tires, the game doesn't know what to do with itself, making the car jiggle like freshly-made JELL-O as it rounds corners and goes over bumps -- it even seems to produce lateral suspension movement, which, if I'm not mistaken, should only happen when a part or two has snapped in half.

GT4 is just a bad game. I don't know how else to say it.

you know i felt the same way playing enthusia its like for some odd reason (take for example a stock 180sx rps13) ok i go to dragon range with the car and im trying to race normally and the car just WANTS to drift.

it jsut doesnt feel realistic to me, without any tuning at all the 180sx feels like its skating on ice in enthusia

its like gt4= some understeer enthusia = mad oversteer i mean its not like it wasnt fun drifting the 180sx around the corners it just didnt feel realistic...

Skating on ice? Really? Because from all of the times that I've lost grip in a real car, I can tell you that, if anything, Enthusia gives you too much tire grip. Live for Speed is closer to reality on that.

It's also funny that you should mention "without any tuning at all" -- that says to me that you probably buy into GT4's "cars need to be meticulously tuned to drift" theory, which, if I may be blunt, is a load of bull. RWD cars can and will drift stock, often without having to add anything.

Now, whether or not Enthusia drifts too much is debatable. I will not deny that it's not true-to-life, but to say that Enthusia's oversteer is much more exaggerated than GT4's lack of oversteer is wrong, in my opinion.

To summarize, it's true that Enthusia needs to throw more understeer into the mix, but it's still closer to reality than GT4 could ever hope to be.

 

[Tenacious D]

It's really strange how many times I've "heard" these same discussions before, between Gran Turismo 4, Forza and Enthusia. And I'm beginning to wonder if it doesn't result in a combination of a few different factors. The way we personally like to drive. The way we percieve the world and our cars when we drive. What we think we're "feeling" when we drive these different games.

Each one of these games is evidently fairly close to an actual driving experience. But just different enough that for some people, one of them feels closest in that part of the driving envelope they favor. That's the only way I can see people seeing almost the exact opposite in these games. Notice Wolfe's response above.

So here we go, we're about to have two different high definition game systems on the market soon, 360 and PS3. Both of them are going to have their flagship racers on them, Forza 2 and GT HD. At first, I suspected that we'd have racing games that were within hundredths of a second difference from each other, but now I'm beginning to wonder. Between the artist's touch on both games, their different math and physics engines percieved with our own biases and preferences involved... will it be the same old story, where one game is seen by some as the pinnacle of racing, and disputed hotly by another group? This spring is going to be an interesting time.

By the way, Wolfe, that Miata demo doesn't look anything like the in-game graphics. But you enjoy your game regardless.

 

[Dave A]

One thing you can do in GT4 to really highlight some of it's inaccuracy is to race a track like Mid field and on the long corner mash the throttle on and off get the power to kick in then let go then get the power to kick in again. And what happens. It's nothing like what would really happen and that highlights some of the inaccuracies in the GT4 physics.

 

[Raitziger]

comparing GT4 and forza was difficult beacause xbox didn´t have a "good" or same kind of wheel as ps2 did.

Hopefully 360 gets better wheels.

 

[Scaff]

Just want to pick up a couple of minor points here.

it even seems to produce lateral suspension movement, which, if I'm not mistaken, should only happen when a part or two has snapped in half.

Not true I'm afraid.

Unless you are running on modified suspension, most road cars will use rubber control arm/suspension bushings and rubber components in the top mounts. This is vital to a road car to ensure that NVH (Noise, Vibration and harshness) levels are acceptable and that secondary ride is descent.

The downside is that the use of rubber in the mounts and bushings will allow lateral suspension movement, particularly under heavy loads. You are quite right that this will increase if the rubber has deteriorated over time, but even with new mounts/bushings on a road car its going to be present.

Its one of the principal reasons why in preparing a car for the track its common to fit nylon or polyurethane bushes, which offer around 25% - 30% greater resistance to deflection that road car rubber bushes. For a true race car you can with certain areas go the whole way and use direct metal to metal mounting (rose joints for example), which offer massive reductions in deflection. The big downside with this approach is that it would make for an almost un-driveable road car in terms of comfort over almost any distance, even with a good quality of tarmac.

It's also funny that you should mention "without any tuning at all" -- that says to me that you probably buy into GT4's "cars need to be meticulously tuned to drift" theory, which, if I may be blunt, is a load of bull. RWD cars can and will drift stock, often without having to add anything.

Now, whether or not Enthusia drifts too much is debatable. I will not deny that it's not true-to-life, but to say that Enthusia's oversteer is much more exaggerated than GT4's lack of oversteer is wrong, in my opinion.

I have to say that Enthusia does take it too far the other way, yes most RWD cars of a moderate degree of power may be able to provoke the rear to step out under power, particularly out of slower corners. That is however quite different from Enthusia's habit of letting almost every RWD car produce power oversteer almost on demand, and allow the development and holding of large angle drifts.

That is certainly not something that the vast majority of RWD are able to do stock, and certainly not on dry tarmac as you can in Enthusia.

The MGB is a good example, Enthusia allows you to get back out with little effort and maintain a high degree of drift for a sustained period. In reality the MGB needs quite a bit of cajoling to get the back out and its certainly not a car that will allow a large angle of drift to be developed and held at all.

Enthusia does go too far in this direction, but please note (as I'm sure Wolfe is aware) I am not saying by the above that GT4 gets it right, rather that both are wrong, but in different areas.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

Not true I'm afraid.

Unless you are running on modified suspension, most road cars will use rubber control arm/suspension bushings and rubber components in the top mounts. This is vital to a road car to ensure that NVH (Noise, Vibration and harshness) levels are acceptable and that secondary ride is descent.

The downside is that the use of rubber in the mounts and bushings will allow lateral suspension movement, particularly under heavy loads. You are quite right that this will increase if the rubber has deteriorated over time, but even with new mounts/bushings on a road car its going to be present.

Its one of the principal reasons why in preparing a car for the track its common to fit nylon or polyurethane bushes, which offer around 25% - 30% greater resistance to deflection that road car rubber bushes. For a true race car you can with certain areas go the whole way and use direct metal to metal mounting (rose joints for example), which offer massive reductions in deflection. The big downside with this approach is that it would make for an almost un-driveable road car in terms of comfort over almost any distance, even with a good quality of tarmac.

Understandable, but those deflections should be rather small, shouldn't they? I'm mainly thinking of a video Mr Deap posted a few months ago with a fully-tuned 300C on Seattle. The severe jiggly motions that car was making looked very wrong, and if a real car was doing the same thing, you'd know that something was broken.

Granted, if you gave a real-world 300C tons of horsepower and tires made out of god (like the way-too-grippy R5's I'm sure Mr Deap used), the sheer weight of the car counteracting against the grip of the tires probably would break something.

I have to say that Enthusia does take it too far the other way, yes most RWD cars of a moderate degree of power may be able to provoke the rear to step out under power, particularly out of slower corners. That is however quite different from Enthusia's habit of letting almost every RWD car produce power oversteer almost on demand, and allow the development and holding of large angle drifts.

That is certainly not something that the vast majority of RWD are able to do stock, and certainly not on dry tarmac as you can in Enthusia.

The MGB is a good example, Enthusia allows you to get back out with little effort and maintain a high degree of drift for a sustained period. In reality the MGB needs quite a bit of cajoling to get the back out and its certainly not a car that will allow a large angle of drift to be developed and held at all.

Enthusia does go too far in this direction, but please note (as I'm sure Wolfe is aware) I am not saying by the above that GT4 gets it right, rather that both are wrong, but in different areas.

Regards

Scaff

Already had those things covered, my good friend. I said "RWD cars can and will" drift stock," not "all RWD cars," and added, "often without adding anything," but not always.

I then stated that Enthusia's tendency towards oversteer was debatable, but that I considered GT4's flaws to be much more severe.

 

[sucahyo]

Sometimes, you'll do something that would be a big mistake in real life, but GT4 won't care -- like nailing the throttle in the Shelby Cobra at the exit of a corner, or mashing the brakes mid-corner -- and then other times you'll do something that's relatively simple in real life, but much more difficult in GT4 -- like countersteering from a small, minor, accidental slide.

Funny that every game simulate this differently. Different model of flaw .