Atheism vs. Religion
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- GTP_Duke
Understanding of truth serves purpose. Purpose is accomplished by understanding Truth. But Truth, in and of itself, does not need to mean anything. It is the understanding of it that has meaning, not the truth itself. The meaning is that Understanding allows humans to operate for their own Purposes, within the systematic environment that is Truth.
Okay. We'll agree disagree.
- 10,832
Bah. I'm not even going there. I'm surprised you seem to have read Beyond Good and Evil. You missed the whole point. It's germination can be found in an early essay called On Truth and Lies in and Extra Moral Sense. I suggest you check it out. It says what I have been trying to say much more elegantly than I could ever hope to.
*edit*
The essay is called On Truth and Lie . . . , not "Beyond". I got it mixed up with the aforementioned book.
*edit*
The essay is called On Truth and Lie . . . , not "Beyond". I got it mixed up with the aforementioned book.
- 42
I believe that there is a God and that Jesus came and died for our sins. I can feel God in my life day to day, guiding me along, and it wasn't until I excepted Jesus into my life that these changes started to occur. Waking up early and having my quiet time (prayer time) has been very benifitial to me. I recently visited Colorado and while I was looking at the mountains I couldn't bring myself to believe that all of this was one giant accident, that there is a creator.
Danoff
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Danoff
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I think this quote captures the assertion Nietzsche is making.
What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphismsin short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins.
If truths are illusions about which one has forgotten, why do inventions work? How does science go about creating new tools which rely on true physical principles to work? The fact that humanity invents proves that we are learning truths about our environment. So either Nietzsche is totally off on this point, or were talking about different kinds of truths.
What, then, is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphismsin short, a sum of human relations which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that this is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins.
If truths are illusions about which one has forgotten, why do inventions work? How does science go about creating new tools which rely on true physical principles to work? The fact that humanity invents proves that we are learning truths about our environment. So either Nietzsche is totally off on this point, or were talking about different kinds of truths.
- 10,832
You're taliking about technology, which is important and valuable. But Fritz is arguing that truth is (used for) much more than that. Scientific facts, like the temperature at which water freezes, is valuable if you want to make a freezer, or predict what state water will be in after a time. But the human dependence and expectation of all things to be organizable into conceptual schemata like that has deeper consequences beyond useful devices, not the least of which being that very dependence and expectation.
- 10,832
I clipped out these passages as seeming to point to what I have been trying to say:
There have been eternities when it (intellect) did not exist; and when it is done for again, nothing will have happened. For this intellect has no further mission that would lead beyond human life. It is human, rather, and only its owner and producer gives it such importance, as if the world pivoted around it.
...he desires the agreeable life-preserving consequences of truth, but he is indifferent to pure knowledge, which has no consequences; he is even hostile to possibly damaging and destructive truths.
The "thing in itself" (for that is what pure truth, without consequences, would be) is quite incomprehensible to the creators of language and not at all worth aiming for. One designates only the relations of things to man, and to express them one calls on the boldest metaphors.
There have been eternities when it (intellect) did not exist; and when it is done for again, nothing will have happened. For this intellect has no further mission that would lead beyond human life. It is human, rather, and only its owner and producer gives it such importance, as if the world pivoted around it.
...he desires the agreeable life-preserving consequences of truth, but he is indifferent to pure knowledge, which has no consequences; he is even hostile to possibly damaging and destructive truths.
The "thing in itself" (for that is what pure truth, without consequences, would be) is quite incomprehensible to the creators of language and not at all worth aiming for. One designates only the relations of things to man, and to express them one calls on the boldest metaphors.
VIPFREAK
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I believe in Viperism, does that count? j/k no seriously, I think there's a god but I don't understand religion at all and don't like to talk about it even more. I don't get why if your gonna believe in god that you have to be in a religion and you are bound by some rules made up by whom? As well as people to me not seeming to follow them and I'm not talking about stuff that's been in the news. I guess in a way this stuff starts to sound like Politics and I hate that too.
Nick
Nick
Danoff
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I need a concrete example here. What real truth is there beyond raw scientific fact?
The temperature at which water has frozen is true. The expectation that it will continue to freeze at that temperature is not real truth.... The expectation that all things can be organized is not truth, but it is reasonable given our current perception of the universe.
- 10,832
Professor Hawking, one of the most famous "truth seekers", is practically obsessed with a "theory of everything". His books are among the most popular around, and this idea that a "theory of everything" is disseminated in this way. Along with that a belief that this is attainable is encouraged. but this didn't just start, Fritz saw it a hundred and thirty years ago.
- 10,832
Pain is bad.
This may or may not be a good example but...
It has been scientifically proven that calorie restriction extends life. Mammals who are kept at the verge of starvation will live longer than well fed mammals, all other things being equal (an easy and almost given state for humans). And it is assumed that a long life is better than a short one. A huge amount of technology is devoted specifically to this end, extending human lives. Yet one method which has proven to yeild excelent results is not encouraged, and most people don't even know about it. Instead we are taught to eat well, that we need 3000 calories a day, etc. It's printed right on the food. Because pain is bad, and hunger is pain. So we intentionally shorten life to avoid the discomfort of hunger and enjoy food. A truth that is "harmful" is ignored.
Sure it is. Being able to predict and anticipate is one of the primary uses of truth.
When something is proven (perceived) to be false, it instantly becomes useless, even threatening.
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