Audi engine in F1 in 2016 isn't happening
- Thread starter Legro
- 187 comments
- 8,721 views
- 29,729
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
Red Bull are literally in tears, sobbing for Audi otherwise they'll leave?
🤬 'em. Let them go, see if they bother. RB play the "do what we want or we walk" card like they're even a critical part of the grid. It must be three times in four years now.
🤬 'em. Let them go, see if they bother. RB play the "do what we want or we walk" card like they're even a critical part of the grid. It must be three times in four years now.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
They only stopped because the mouth piece that was doing it was fired, and an entirely new team is there with the concept that Toto has told to Horner and RBR time and time again, which is shut up put your head down and get on with it.
In other words get to work to win and don't let those outside forces bog you down.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
- 12,512
- Ireland
- The__Luke
Manor, Force India, Sauber, take your pick.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
- 9,554
- Vermont
- catamount39
STR is rumored to be purchased by Renault and used as a base for a factory team. And STR hasn't denied the talks. It would make sense if Red Bull left and bought that team for the Audi factory team. Renault would be left without a team and would probably purchase STR.
It's far fetched but not insane.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Well they also said a Competitive Renault engine.
People don't understand, they are the only team on the grid with a realistic shot at going for titles with no ability to make F1 engines, in regulations that require strong engines designed for the Chassis there is no realistic shot without a strong engine that is out of their hands.
Even Mclaren have the Ability to make engines at their current state but they have a full works backing by Honda.
Redbull as a company would probably be better suited to lower level driver sponsership, but their is very low TV coverage in those series.
Going to WEC though would be a Big Coup for that series and may contribute to the Downfall of F1 and Rise of WEC, it is hard to see though how a series like WEC can get mainstream vewiership with its endurance format though.
Last edited:
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
But that isn't, as @Dennisch says, today's news, that's been said since the beginning of the
Apart from Sauber, Force India, and so on. You can include those if you're going to include McLaren, obviously.
That's still a stretch, their road-car division makes engines but that's still far from being a "works" setup of the ilk of Mercedes or Ferrari.
Maybe so but that would go against Red Bull's habit of sponsoring the best/most-extreme sports people in the highest-level activities. I believe it's true that if they can't have a winner they'd rather not bother. I don't believe that Mate****z has any emotional attachment to F1 in the way that people like Ron Dennis or Frank Williams do.
Why would it be a coup for WEC? You seem to suggest that all it's lacking is a big sponsor rather than a far-better-and-more-accessible TV package. As you say one of the problems is the endurance format, having more big sponsors involved isn't going to change the TV stations' attitude to that.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
"If we don't have a competitive engine in the near future, then either Audi is coming or we are out," Marko told the BBC.
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/12864515/red-bull-looks-audi-patience-wears-thin-renault
It is what I said.
With Redbull leaving F1, F1 will start to look like the BTCC 2000 season, a Series which looks nothing like it did only a few seasons prior.
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/12864515/red-bull-looks-audi-patience-wears-thin-renault
Why would I include teams that have no chance to Win a title?
It is what I said.
It's similar to the Mercedes setup tbh, the engines just like Mercedes are not made in the same place as the Chassis, and the engine and chassis design are integrated for the time being.
Most likely but it's a business and if it isn't feasible to run a team they can always reduce to just Sponsership. Redbull has ramped up their funding Massively since 2008 when they prepared for the 2009 regulation assult, wthout results like back then they have reason to think it's getting hard to justify.
I Seem not to be suggesting, when you take 2 Teams from an already small F1 grid and Bolster what looks to be it's Main competition it starts to paint a picture reminiscent of the CART To NASCAR mainstream turnover, sure this is on the otherside of the world but it makes sense when you consider F1s continued push to move away from Europe and WEC Rapid growth In Europe.
With Redbull leaving F1, F1 will start to look like the BTCC 2000 season, a Series which looks nothing like it did only a few seasons prior.
Last edited:
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Worst negotiation tactic ever. Why would Audi want to get involved with an uncompetitive team when Red Bull will just keep the team all to themselves if they turn competitive before Audi do a deal? There is no incentive for Audi to enter.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
What if Audi put a contract in place to slowly take over the team in a period regardless of results?
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
When did I Assume that?
I was responding to your critique on why they wouldn't join, I didn't say they would.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
James Allen tries to get to the heart of it, suggesting that if Audi are to get involved, then it wouldn't be until 2017 at the earliest:
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/05/analysis-how-red-bull-moves-towards-f1-end-game-with-audi/
He can't really explain why Marko has resorted to bully-boy tactics, trying to position it as an imminent deal, but I suspect that it's another warning shot fired across Renault's bow considering that speculation suggests Renault are looking to buy back Lotus rather than Toro Rosso, which would put another degree of separation between them and Red Bull.
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2015/05/analysis-how-red-bull-moves-towards-f1-end-game-with-audi/
He can't really explain why Marko has resorted to bully-boy tactics, trying to position it as an imminent deal, but I suspect that it's another warning shot fired across Renault's bow considering that speculation suggests Renault are looking to buy back Lotus rather than Toro Rosso, which would put another degree of separation between them and Red Bull.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
There's always been a method to his madness - if there wasn't, he'd be long gone.
AJ
Premium
- 2,085
- UK [UTC+1]
- GTP_AJ
- GTP AJ
An Auto Union
Why Audi doesn't need F1, but F1 needs Volkswagen.
There are 2 reasons why manufacturers may wish get involved in motorsport;
1 - Improving the breed - showcasing & proving technology on the track and then bringing it back to the road.
2 - Marketing - expodure and instilling asperation.
Ultimately the point is to SELL MORE CARS.
Next there are 2 factors that determine the category of motorsport a brand will consider entering;
3 - Brand relevance - simply put does it make sense.
4 - Bang for Buck - if we accept this is a marketing exercise then the board will want to see a return of investment in terms of marketing activation.
Finally there are 2 types of program to pursue;
5 - Factory Program - I define a 'Factory' program as one that the manufacture is putting money into. This may be in a top line or prestigious class/category. Or it may be a one make series promoting a single brand. Here you completely control the marketing message and are able to enter categories that customers would find finically prohibitive.
6 - Cutomer Program - I define a 'Customer' program as one it is taking money out of. You build a product and sell it to customers around the world to race in multiple series. You service the cars and proved spare parts, for a fee. GT3 is the stand out example of this. The advantage here is in numbers, if not exposure.
So the questions here are;
A - Will VAG enter Formula 1?
B - If so, with which brand?
C - If so, as an engine supplier to an existing team, or as an outright manufacture?
First, have a look at what motorsport programs are currently operational within the group and rank the expenditure;
AUDI AG/Quattro GMBH
Spend = HIGH
Factory
WEC - Audi Sport Team Joest (R18 e-tron quattro)
DTM - 8 cars over 3 teams (RS5 DTM)
Formula E - Supporting Abt Sport line. Expected to provide power unit from next year onwards.
TT Cup - One make series supporting DTM. (TT)
Customer
GT3 - Audi Customer Racing (R8 LMS Ultra)
Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A.
Spend = LOW
Factory
Super Trofeo - One make series supporting Blancpain GT Series. (Huracán LP620-2 Super Trofeo)
Customer
GT3 - (Lamborghini Gallardo GT3 FL II) Huracán based replacement pending approval.
Bentley Motors Ltd
Spend = MODERATE
Factory
GT3/LM GTE - Make no mistake, despite the rules, this IS a factory program, and the Conti GT3 is pushing the limits of the definition of the class. They clearly want to go to Le Mans, but it seems like that are going to have to justify the budget by selling a reasonable number of GT3 cars to customers, before converting to LM GTE. Convergence talks also a factor here.
Customer
GT3 - The first customer cars are heading to the US for use in the PWC later this year.
Bugatti Automobiles S.A.S.
Spend = LOW
Factory
n/a
Customer
n/a
Porsche AG
Spend = HIGH
Factory
LM P1 - Porsche Motorsport (919 Hybrid)
LM GTE - Porsche Team Manthey (911 RSR)
Super Cup - Single make series supporting Formula 1.
Customer
LM GTE - A struggling program do to old machinery, and stubbornness. A Cayman 981 RSR is desperately needed by the customers, but not the marketing department.
GT3 - See above.
Carrera Cup - Various national one make series (991 GT3 Cup)
SEAT, S.A.
Spend = MODERATE
Factory
Leon Eurocup - Single make series. (Leon Cup Racer)
Customer
Endurance - An endurance version of the Leon Cup Racer is due by the end of the year.
Touring Cars - SEAT Ibiza SC Trophy
Rallying - Group N Leon
Škoda automobilová a.s.
Spend = LOW
Factory
Rallying - European Rally Championship (Fabia R5)
Customer
Rallying - WRC2 (Fabia R5/S2000)
Suzuki Motor Corporation
Spend = LOW
Factory
n/a
Customer
n/a
Volkswagen AG
Spend = LOW
Factory
Rallying - Volkswagen Motosport (Polo R)
Customer
F3 - Engine supply
So, AUDI & Porche are already supporting a large number of programs utilising large budgets, and would need to cut probably more than one program to accommodate an F1 program. It should be noted that whilst they are covering very similar ground in terms of the classes and programs they run, there customer bases are quite different. As is their marketing activation. AUDI favour promoting technological innovation that trickles down to their road cars (FSI,TDI,ultra, Quattro, e-tron, Laserlight) , whilst Porsche focus on product and brand heritage.
VAG is made up of 9 main brands, and they can be split into 3 perceived groups;
Aspirational/Status
Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A.
Bentley Motors Ltd
Porsche AG
Quattro GMBH
Attainable/Quallity
AUDI AG
Volkswagen AG
Utility/Commodity
SEAT, S.A.
Škoda automobilová a.s.
Suzuki Motor Corporation
No Asperational marque has successfully entered F1. (I discount Ferrari and McLaren, as they were involved in the category before they were aspirational.) Lets look back at those two main reason for entering a category;
1 - F1 today has zero road or road car relevance.
2 - F1 today has unprecedented levels of exposure (in fact so much so it is damaging to other forms of motorsport, but thats another discussion).
Asperational brands have no need to enter a category to meet point 2. You already want a Lamborghini or a Porsche, marketing for marking's sake is unnecessary. How many adverts do you see for those brands (outside the specialist press)?
I'm going to cross off Lamborghini, Bentley, and Porsche as options. I'm also going to cross off Suzuki, due to only being the largest shareholder, not outright owner. That leaves 4 brands; AUDI, Volkswagen, SEAT, and Škoda.
AUDI and Volkswagen are well established international brands, much more so than SEAT and Škoda. However, SEAT and Škoda's reach and recognition is growing with makes them prime candidates for main stage brand exposure to instil aspiration in potential customers in new markets.
Lets get back to Question A: Will VAG enter Formula 1?
For F1's long term health, it need new blood in all areas, but particularly in terms of teams and engine suppliers. The Top 5 car manufacturers in 2014 were;
Toyota (10.2 million)
VAG (10.1 million)
GM (9.9 million)
Renault-Nissan (8.5 million)
Hyundai-Kia (8.0 million)
- Toyota are not coming back in this generation.
- GM simply couldn't afford it financially or in PR terms.
- Renault-Nissan's is stable despite their current woes.
- Hyundai have long been rumoured to be considering a LM P1 assault, but a F1 announcement would be out of left field.
Out of those 4/5 who are not currently involved in F1, VAG seems the most likely to be interested.
So, will VAG enter Formula 1?
Probably. Someone needs to.
Which brand?
Whilst Dr. Ullrich is head of Audi Sport, it seems unlikely to be AUDI. They don't need to be in F1, their current programs are suiting them well, from both a sporting and marketing angle. Having said that, I would like nothing more than to see an Ulrich Baretzky F1 powertrain. As Adrian Newey is to Aerodynamics, Herr Baretzky is to engines. He has always said he would like to return to a petrol engine before the end of his career, and nothing would be a sweeter swan song.
If decision came down to Volkswagen, SEAT, or Škoda, whilst the latter 2 would be interesting propositions my estimation is that that would go with the core brand, VW. It is the most straightforward proposal, and, perhaps most importantly to the board, a victory would result in the playing for the German national anthem. If they enter as a constructer that is...
As an engine supplier to an existing team, or as an outright manufacture?
If it's AUDI, then as an outright manufacturer. No question. Supply to Red Bull as a secondary customer team, most likely, but that is not what Mateschitz wants.
If it's VW, then I think that engine supply of the 4 Red Bulls is far more likely, with a 2017 F1 grid looking as follows;
Mercedes - Mercedes
Williams - Mercedes
Lotus - Mercedes
Ferrari - Ferrari
HAAS - Ferrari
Red Bull - VW
Torro Rosso - VW
Renault - Renault
?????? - Renault
McLaren - Honda
Discuss.
Why Audi doesn't need F1, but F1 needs Volkswagen.
There are 2 reasons why manufacturers may wish get involved in motorsport;
1 - Improving the breed - showcasing & proving technology on the track and then bringing it back to the road.
2 - Marketing - expodure and instilling asperation.
Ultimately the point is to SELL MORE CARS.
Next there are 2 factors that determine the category of motorsport a brand will consider entering;
3 - Brand relevance - simply put does it make sense.
4 - Bang for Buck - if we accept this is a marketing exercise then the board will want to see a return of investment in terms of marketing activation.
Finally there are 2 types of program to pursue;
5 - Factory Program - I define a 'Factory' program as one that the manufacture is putting money into. This may be in a top line or prestigious class/category. Or it may be a one make series promoting a single brand. Here you completely control the marketing message and are able to enter categories that customers would find finically prohibitive.
6 - Cutomer Program - I define a 'Customer' program as one it is taking money out of. You build a product and sell it to customers around the world to race in multiple series. You service the cars and proved spare parts, for a fee. GT3 is the stand out example of this. The advantage here is in numbers, if not exposure.
So the questions here are;
A - Will VAG enter Formula 1?
B - If so, with which brand?
C - If so, as an engine supplier to an existing team, or as an outright manufacture?
First, have a look at what motorsport programs are currently operational within the group and rank the expenditure;
AUDI AG/Quattro GMBH
Spend = HIGH
Factory
WEC - Audi Sport Team Joest (R18 e-tron quattro)
DTM - 8 cars over 3 teams (RS5 DTM)
Formula E - Supporting Abt Sport line. Expected to provide power unit from next year onwards.
TT Cup - One make series supporting DTM. (TT)
Customer
GT3 - Audi Customer Racing (R8 LMS Ultra)
Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A.
Spend = LOW
Factory
Super Trofeo - One make series supporting Blancpain GT Series. (Huracán LP620-2 Super Trofeo)
Customer
GT3 - (Lamborghini Gallardo GT3 FL II) Huracán based replacement pending approval.
Bentley Motors Ltd
Spend = MODERATE
Factory
GT3/LM GTE - Make no mistake, despite the rules, this IS a factory program, and the Conti GT3 is pushing the limits of the definition of the class. They clearly want to go to Le Mans, but it seems like that are going to have to justify the budget by selling a reasonable number of GT3 cars to customers, before converting to LM GTE. Convergence talks also a factor here.
Customer
GT3 - The first customer cars are heading to the US for use in the PWC later this year.
Bugatti Automobiles S.A.S.
Spend = LOW
Factory
n/a
Customer
n/a
Porsche AG
Spend = HIGH
Factory
LM P1 - Porsche Motorsport (919 Hybrid)
LM GTE - Porsche Team Manthey (911 RSR)
Super Cup - Single make series supporting Formula 1.
Customer
LM GTE - A struggling program do to old machinery, and stubbornness. A Cayman 981 RSR is desperately needed by the customers, but not the marketing department.
GT3 - See above.
Carrera Cup - Various national one make series (991 GT3 Cup)
SEAT, S.A.
Spend = MODERATE
Factory
Leon Eurocup - Single make series. (Leon Cup Racer)
Customer
Endurance - An endurance version of the Leon Cup Racer is due by the end of the year.
Touring Cars - SEAT Ibiza SC Trophy
Rallying - Group N Leon
Škoda automobilová a.s.
Spend = LOW
Factory
Rallying - European Rally Championship (Fabia R5)
Customer
Rallying - WRC2 (Fabia R5/S2000)
Suzuki Motor Corporation
Spend = LOW
Factory
n/a
Customer
n/a
Volkswagen AG
Spend = LOW
Factory
Rallying - Volkswagen Motosport (Polo R)
Customer
F3 - Engine supply
So, AUDI & Porche are already supporting a large number of programs utilising large budgets, and would need to cut probably more than one program to accommodate an F1 program. It should be noted that whilst they are covering very similar ground in terms of the classes and programs they run, there customer bases are quite different. As is their marketing activation. AUDI favour promoting technological innovation that trickles down to their road cars (FSI,TDI,ultra, Quattro, e-tron, Laserlight) , whilst Porsche focus on product and brand heritage.
VAG is made up of 9 main brands, and they can be split into 3 perceived groups;
Aspirational/Status
Automobili Lamborghini S.p.A.
Bentley Motors Ltd
Porsche AG
Quattro GMBH
Attainable/Quallity
AUDI AG
Volkswagen AG
Utility/Commodity
SEAT, S.A.
Škoda automobilová a.s.
Suzuki Motor Corporation
No Asperational marque has successfully entered F1. (I discount Ferrari and McLaren, as they were involved in the category before they were aspirational.) Lets look back at those two main reason for entering a category;
1 - F1 today has zero road or road car relevance.
2 - F1 today has unprecedented levels of exposure (in fact so much so it is damaging to other forms of motorsport, but thats another discussion).
Asperational brands have no need to enter a category to meet point 2. You already want a Lamborghini or a Porsche, marketing for marking's sake is unnecessary. How many adverts do you see for those brands (outside the specialist press)?
I'm going to cross off Lamborghini, Bentley, and Porsche as options. I'm also going to cross off Suzuki, due to only being the largest shareholder, not outright owner. That leaves 4 brands; AUDI, Volkswagen, SEAT, and Škoda.
AUDI and Volkswagen are well established international brands, much more so than SEAT and Škoda. However, SEAT and Škoda's reach and recognition is growing with makes them prime candidates for main stage brand exposure to instil aspiration in potential customers in new markets.
Lets get back to Question A: Will VAG enter Formula 1?
For F1's long term health, it need new blood in all areas, but particularly in terms of teams and engine suppliers. The Top 5 car manufacturers in 2014 were;
Toyota (10.2 million)
VAG (10.1 million)
GM (9.9 million)
Renault-Nissan (8.5 million)
Hyundai-Kia (8.0 million)
- Toyota are not coming back in this generation.
- GM simply couldn't afford it financially or in PR terms.
- Renault-Nissan's is stable despite their current woes.
- Hyundai have long been rumoured to be considering a LM P1 assault, but a F1 announcement would be out of left field.
Out of those 4/5 who are not currently involved in F1, VAG seems the most likely to be interested.
So, will VAG enter Formula 1?
Probably. Someone needs to.
Which brand?
Whilst Dr. Ullrich is head of Audi Sport, it seems unlikely to be AUDI. They don't need to be in F1, their current programs are suiting them well, from both a sporting and marketing angle. Having said that, I would like nothing more than to see an Ulrich Baretzky F1 powertrain. As Adrian Newey is to Aerodynamics, Herr Baretzky is to engines. He has always said he would like to return to a petrol engine before the end of his career, and nothing would be a sweeter swan song.
If decision came down to Volkswagen, SEAT, or Škoda, whilst the latter 2 would be interesting propositions my estimation is that that would go with the core brand, VW. It is the most straightforward proposal, and, perhaps most importantly to the board, a victory would result in the playing for the German national anthem. If they enter as a constructer that is...
As an engine supplier to an existing team, or as an outright manufacture?
If it's AUDI, then as an outright manufacturer. No question. Supply to Red Bull as a secondary customer team, most likely, but that is not what Mateschitz wants.
If it's VW, then I think that engine supply of the 4 Red Bulls is far more likely, with a 2017 F1 grid looking as follows;
Mercedes - Mercedes
Williams - Mercedes
Lotus - Mercedes
Ferrari - Ferrari
HAAS - Ferrari
Red Bull - VW
Torro Rosso - VW
Renault - Renault
?????? - Renault
McLaren - Honda
Discuss.
Last edited:
- 5,204
- Finland
The Fabia R5 in WRC2 is very factory effort indeed, which makes this statement bit off.
If Renault will become its own team again, they will most likely be using Torro Rosso as a base for the team, so VAG won't be supplying the engines for them. If they don't, and VAG comes to F1 as a engine supplier of Red Bull teams, there won't be very many reasons for Renault to stay in F1.
And then there's a very slim chance of Red Bull leaving F1 altogether and selling Torro Rosso to Renault and Red Bull team to VAG, which would be very unlikely, but there has been some stranger moves in F1 history.
- 23,938
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
I can't see Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Seat or Skoda as brands that fit in with F1 in any shape or form.
VW already has a presence in top level single seaters as an F3 engine supplier. As i've said previously, Audi has little to gain through continuing in WEC. They've won Le Mans more times than anyone cares to remember. Audi not winning at Le Mans is now bigger news than them doing so.
So i say either VW as an engine supplier or Audi as a manufacturer outfit.
But i would add - what do Joest know about running an F1 team. It's hardly their area of expertise.
VW already has a presence in top level single seaters as an F3 engine supplier. As i've said previously, Audi has little to gain through continuing in WEC. They've won Le Mans more times than anyone cares to remember. Audi not winning at Le Mans is now bigger news than them doing so.
So i say either VW as an engine supplier or Audi as a manufacturer outfit.
But i would add - what do Joest know about running an F1 team. It's hardly their area of expertise.
AJ
Premium
- 2,085
- UK [UTC+1]
- GTP_AJ
- GTP AJ
WRC2 = customer.
Euro Rally championship = factory, I missed that off, I'll add it in.
Missed that, thank you.
By that logic, Farrari, Red Bull, Mercedes have noting to gain through continuing in F1...
- 23,938
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
Not really. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport - at least to the casual layperson. Their presence still 'gifts' them much worldwide publicity.
WEC may have in recent years become the more interesting series, but outside of motorsport fanship, it might as well not exist for all the general public care.
AJ
Premium
- 2,085
- UK [UTC+1]
- GTP_AJ
- GTP AJ
Until they walk into a dealership and see a massive photo of a R18/919/TS040 on the wall...
