Bass Ackwards braking works!

[d3p0]

Actually, if the tire is spinning it is possible to slow it down with the brakes. Like I wrote earlier; in the real world, it's possible to decrease angle by using the hand brake. The reason I disagree with biasing towards the rear is that it has other negative effects on drifting (FR's anyway).

 

[194GVan]

d3po i understand what you are saying there. I was working on an 87 Skyline R31 GTS-R last night and had been fiddling with the settings for days. The final braking settings worked best with slightly more bias towards the front.

This contradicted everything i had thought, considering many of my other drift cars seemed to behave better with the brakes biased towards the rear. The only thing i could think of is the way you set up your brakes is very dependent on the way everything else is set up on your car, the weight distribution, suspension settings. And probably the biggest thing is setting them up so they work for YOU.

so i guess if your settings are working for you then youre doing it right, no matter how you set it up.

 

[xcsti]

so i guess if your settings are working for you then youre doing it right, no matter how you set it up.

As long as you arent mixing tires .

 

[Swift]

As long as you arent mixing tires .

Yep, mixing tires is simply not a good thing and makes the car unbalanced.

 

[awdrifter2]

It seems lie 194GVan got the same results as me, front bias works for this game. It really doesn't make much sense, but that's just the way GT4 works. My GT-R's brake settings are f20/r12 and I suggest setting up your brakes both ways to see if it works for you. It seems like it didn't work for JaeTea for some reason.

 

[Azuremen]

xcsti... I find that applying more throttle will in fact stablize the car... but then again, I setup using a race setup, even for drift, where I want the car to be more stalbe under acceleration but more likely to rotate under braking...

Giving the car more gas will move more weight ot the rear, and allow it to hook up again...

 

[antisport.net]

its all up to the player... breaks might work that way but I prefer a normal setting

 

[Sloth]

Slurp I just have one disagreement.

If you are truely drifting the back end will not have any traction for you to brake with, so a bias to the rear will not do any good because the front will still catch braking causing more oversteer. The only way to reduce angle is to increase countersteer or to decrease throttle. As some one stated bias drifting is a crutch but I do find it acceptable on AWD cars.

Would someone mind explaining static and kenitic friction?

I'm just about to leave my house, but I would like to see where this leads.

 

[Azuremen]

I can explain static and kinetic friction, though not sure where you are going with this Slurp...

Anyhow, kinetic friction is where the tire is not actually moving when it contacts the surface... aka, no slipage. Kinetic would if you locked the brakes up or made the wheels slip...

Everything in the universe has more friction when its stationary. Tires have more friction, and thus more traction when they are NOT slipping. As soon as they start to slip, traction drops dramaticlly. Removing the slip restores traction. Thats pretty much was TCS and stablity management do.

However, still not clear on where you are going with this Slurp...

 

[Stanley^Carter]

Yep, mixing tires is simply not a good thing and makes the car unbalanced.

I'm just wondering, in GT3, that seems to be right in theory.

but what about GT4, since GT4 is said to be more realistic, mixing tyres would be a better idea for easier drift initiation/maintain right?
many beginners in real life uses better tyres up front, but louzier ones at the back, and it works just fine.

Just a bit of curiosity here.

 

[Sloth]

Still waiting for a decent explaination of static and kinetic friction, just to enforce the fact that braking even while the tires are slipping laterally will reduce or even reverse lateral acceleration, thus allowing you to control the rate of rotation with a slight amount of braking power bias in the rear.


A balanced bias is somewhere in the area of 60% front/40% rear

Thusly, you could achieve rear bias with 55% front/45% rear.

It doesn't need alot.


Also, to those claiming that this is a newbie tactic or learning aid or whatever; I'm not talking about initiating the drift in this matter. I'm talking about controlling it after it's been initiate.

And even so: I don't believe any method of initiating oversteer, (with the exception of using the e-brake), should be looked down upon.

This is where style comes in.

If you believe your style is the best, don't argue it, because it won't make it look any better.

 

[Ryen49]

In the real world rear baised brakes make your car unstable and don't stop your car as efficent as front biased brakes.. But in GT4 its all personal peference.

 

[Sloth]

Thank you for that.

You have just pushed me past the 'braking' point and I no longer have an interest in reading this tiresome thread.

Goodnight everyone/Ryen.

 

[Scaff]

Still waiting for a decent explaination of static and kinetic friction, just to enforce the fact that braking even while the tires are slipping laterally will reduce or even reverse lateral acceleration, thus allowing you to control the rate of rotation with a slight amount of braking power bias in the rear.


A balanced bias is somewhere in the area of 60% front/40% rear

Thusly, you could achieve rear bias with 55% front/45% rear.

It doesn't need alot.


Also, to those claiming that this is a newbie tactic or learning aid or whatever; I'm not talking about initiating the drift in this matter. I'm talking about controlling it after it's been initiate.

And even so: I don't believe any method of initiating oversteer, (with the exception of using the e-brake), should be looked down upon.

This is where style comes in.

If you believe your style is the best, don't argue it, because it won't make it look any better.

This is a very heavy physics based look at exactly what happends to the slip angle of tyre under variuos conditions, may be what you are after.

http://www.miata.net/sport/Physics/Part25.html

 

[Swift]

I'm just wondering, in GT3, that seems to be right in theory.

but what about GT4, since GT4 is said to be more realistic, mixing tyres would be a better idea for easier drift initiation/maintain right?
many beginners in real life uses better tyres up front, but louzier ones at the back, and it works just fine.

Just a bit of curiosity here.

It's always been "easier" to drift by mixing tires. Even in GT3. It's just a bad idea all around. But it sabotages your technique and limits potential.

Beginners in the real world do that because they can't afford to keep replacing the good ones

 

[d3p0]

Slurp: I don't think anyone is arguing that braking doesn't slow down spinning rear tires.

"And even so: I don't believe any method of initiating oversteer, (with the exception of using the e-brake), should be looked down upon."

Yeah, I think locking the wheels is the only technique looked down upon, that and understeering.

"Beginners in the real world do that because they can't afford to keep replacing the good ones"

Or they own a low powered car that can't spin grippy tires.

 

[Sloth]

Slurp: I don't think anyone is arguing that braking doesn't slow down spinning rear tires.

Ok.

WTF

Do you guys even read what people are saying?

I'm not targeting you personally d3p0, just everyone making these irrelivant posts.

I'm not talking about slowing the rotation of the tires.

I'm talking about slowing the rotation of the car if you oversteer too much.


Heavy bias in the front will result in increasing the severity of oversteer once it's been initiated.

Biasing towards the rear will give you the ability to control oversteer.

What I'm saying is, a slight amount of rear bias will enable you to brake while the car is drifting, but what that will do is slow down the rear of the car instead of the front, and what that means is if you put too much gas on and get the car rotating too fast, you can just touch the brakes and save yourself from spinning out.

You might notice when you drift a car set up for maximum grip, touching the brakes while in massive oversteer will result in even more oversteer, and in turn, a spinout.

..just to enforce the fact that braking even while the tires are slipping laterally will reduce or even reverse lateral acceleration, thus allowing you to control the rate of rotation with a slight amount of braking power bias in the rear.

I mean come on you guys.

If you're going to participate in a technical discussion, at least remember what is said.


Especially when it's quoted and argued for like the third time and on the last page.

Slurp I just have one disagreement.

If you are truely drifting the back end will not have any traction for you to brake with, so a bias to the rear will not do any good because the front will still catch braking causing more oversteer. The only way to reduce angle is to increase countersteer or to decrease throttle.

Shadow Drifter would have my back in a f--king second, in relation to this.

Not to mention flaming all the repeat posters ten times as bad as I am now.

This is just rediculous.

Who was it that once said?

"I'm a drifter and I can't stand 90% of my own kind."

Grip it is..

 

[d3p0]

Hey, calm down there.

You caught me, I made a mistake. Someone was arguing that brakes won't slow spinning tires:

"If you are truely drifting the back end will not have any traction for you to brake with, so a bias to the rear will not do any good because thefront will still catch braking causing more oversteer. The only way to reduce angle is to increase countersteer or to decrease throttle."

I even responded to it already, ha:

"Actually, if the tire is spinning it is possible to slow it down with the brakes."

You and I both know braking slows down spinning rear tires.

"Still waiting for a decent explaination of static and kinetic friction, just to enforce the fact that braking even while the tires are slipping laterally will reduce or even reverse lateral acceleration, thus allowing you to control the rate of rotation with a slight amount of braking power bias in the rear."

Yes this will slow rotation, but I still disagree with using brake bias for this and here's why:

"If you are initiating with too much angle, you need to work on your initiation. If you are spinning mid drift, you need to control your throttle better. Finally, if you are using rear brake bias to lock the rears as a way to initiate, you might as well use the ebrake."

"If your brakes are biased towards the rear, the speed at which the rear end will come out will be slower - more controllable, but less dramatic. Biasing towards the rear can also cut your drift short if you are using the brakes to transition from one direction to the other. Or, in decreasing radius turns you may not be able to slow down enough to land the corner exit or you may cut your drift short before the exit."

"In real life, drift cars' brakes are biased towards the front. In the game as in life, it is possible to decrease angle by using the throttle and brake (front bias) at the same time. Or, the real life solution would be using your hand brake to slow the rear tires"

Redundancy +3 for me! Yes this thread is going in circles, but don't fault me, I tried to sum it all up in a way we could all agree on. Should I quote that too?

 

[Ryen49]

You might as well face it. all of the threads thata re technical go in circles just like the ones back in the old GT3 forum. 👎

 

[Sloth]

Redundancy +3 for me! Yes this thread is going in circles, but don't fault me, I tried to sum it all up in a way we could all agree on. Should I quote that too?

I'm not targeting you personally d3p0, just everyone making these irrelivant (mistimed, misread, etc) posts.

Case closed.

Don't sweat.