Best/Worst Transition From GT3 to GT4

[Tornado]

First off it is not an automatic given that FR and MR cars will all power oversteer it depends very much on the suspension set-up and layout of the standard car and given modern tyres that the car has sufficent power to break the grip in the first place. A real life BMW 120i or 120d will not power oversteer despite being FR layout, try it and all you end up with is a host of understeer.

I should have worded it better. It is not automatic. But any decently powerful RWD car should be able to do so, particularly American cars such as the muscle cars or Corvettes.

Very few AWD cars in reality will allow you to hold power overesteer at all, the vast majority need to be heavily destabilised to do create the oversteer and will quickly recover from it. Fifth Gear showed this excellently when they compaired drifting an M3 and RS4, the RS4 could develop huge angles but not maintain them and certainly not on the throttle.

High horsepower and torque cars or Rear-biased AWD cars can power oversteer in tighter turns. The Audi RS4 is a front heavy, only somewhat rear-biased AWD car, and it probably doesn't have the torque to break traction.

Dirt does not automatically equal oversteer, carry too much speed on dirt and all you will be rewarded with is huge amounts of understeer. Oversteer at low speeds on dirt is easy to create and maintain, but at higher speeds requires a very deft touch.

But the rally physics in GT4 simply seem to hate the bility to slide cars through turns. The easiest way to make a car get through rallies in the game is by pumping the brakes. It is more or less impossible to rally using the handbrake in any car, or by turning in the opposite direction of the turn and then quickly turning back.

In closing what problem do you have with the RRs? In the 'Porsche Driving Guide' it describes the balance of an RR car as one that fundementally understeers on the limit, with a very rapid and sudden transfer to oversteer should you allow the load to leave the rear. Sounds a lot like RRs in GT4 to me.

The brakes in the RUF's don't seem to make the car's swap ends as they should, and the rear end slides around far too much when the throttle is let go (I know it should slide, but the fact that it continues to slide even when you put on the throttle is a problem).

 

[Scaff]

I should have worded it better. It is not automatic. But any decently powerful RWD car should be able to do so, particularly American cars such as the muscle cars or Corvettes.

I would agree that on some of the higher power cars it is a bit more difficult to induce that it should be, but I could not agree that its all wrong.

High horsepower and torque cars or Rear-biased AWD cars can power oversteer in tighter turns. The Audi RS4 is a front heavy, only somewhat rear-biased AWD car, and it probably doesn't have the torque to break traction.

Again I would agree with this, but its also generally only cars able to shift a large amount of the torque to the rear that will do it. It reality the WRX and Skyline are some of the very few AWD cars that will power oversteer on demand.

But the rally physics in GT4 simply seem to hate the bility to slide cars through turns. The easiest way to make a car get through rallies in the game is by pumping the brakes. It is more or less impossible to rally using the handbrake in any car, or by turning in the opposite direction of the turn and then quickly turning back.

Hmm strange that one as I don't have any real issue with any of those areas, but I must confess I don't use the handbrake on dirt. Then again it does depend on the car and driver, I honestly think that a lot of people over-estimate how much speed a rally car carries through a corner. I have footage of Stig Blomquist in a range of group B cars with on-board telemetry and the cornering speeds are not as high as a lot of people think. Smothness is the key here for me (as it is on the track as well) and remembering that most modern rally cars are not built to go sideways, the current WRC has little sideways action compaired to the days when I was a kid and watched Mk2 Escorts go past the house on the RAC Rally of Great Britain.

The brakes in the RUF's don't seem to make the car's swap ends as they should, and the rear end slides around far too much when the throttle is let go (I know it should slide, but the fact that it continues to slide even when you put on the throttle is a problem).

Strong rear brake bias is not covered well in GT4s tuning (or any other sim I have every placed - full braking from over 100mph in reality can be tricky in any car).

However I would (and so does the Porsche Driving Book) dispute the area of full lift off oversteer and the speed at which it occurs, they also describe how once its got to this point very, very little, if anything can be done to recover it.

Regards

Scaff

 

[whh01]

Worst - ROME !!! I can't believe they left it out of GT4. It was one of my favorites in GT3.

Best - The cars as a whole drive better in GT4. Maybe it's just that the wheel is better responding than in GT3.

 

[Tornado]

However I would (and so does the Porsche Driving Book) dispute the area of full lift off oversteer and the speed at which it occurs, they also describe how once its got to this point very, very little, if anything can be done to recover it.

Regards

Scaff

That is very true, but the one and only thing that can be done to fix the "Porsche Slide" would be to add throttle, which usually puts the weight back on the rear tires and ends the slide. In GT4 all applying the throttle does is make the rear tires spin, which sends the car around itself. Keep in mind that I am talking specifically about the RUF's, Alpines and DeLorean, and not the lesser RR cars (Beetle, 500R, etc.), which are modeled better because of their wheelbase.

 

[Thundercat]

WORST:

No Rome (I actually missed that circuit)
No Amatauer Hall
Mid-Field looks flat, feels flat.


BEST:

More Real-world circuits.
Leguna-Seca is a lot better in GT4 than in GT3
No Complex-String--but you donn't need Complex-String when you have the Nurburgring.
Mustang GT 2005
Nissan Fairlady Gran Turismo Mod 👍
NISMO MOTUL Pitwork JGTC racecar
RE-AMEMIYA ASPARADRINK RX-7 racecar
Ford GT Spec II Racecar
More control of the replays during the replay. In GT3 you have to stop, go to a diffenrent menu, select the setting, then go back, re-strart the replay. In GT4 you have replay control on the fly.
Photomode--I can waste an entire 'sickday' from work playing around with photomode!

 

[Kylehnat]

Best: More European and American cars, and more real-world tracks.

Worst: 5-second penalty for being hit by moronic AI

 

[Wolfe]

Best transition -- the inclusion of the Nurburgring Nordschleife.
Worst transition -- the bastardization of the physics, with a significant step backwards in realism.

I would agree that on some of the higher power cars it is a bit more difficult to induce that it should be, but I could not agree that its all wrong.

With some steering- and brake-work, there are many "weak" RWD cars that can produce slides, albeit relatively short ones. The first-generation 1.6L MX-5 Miata is a good example, and the BMW 120's are just as applicable. I know you're talking about powerslides, here, but the fact remains that slides are too hard to induce in GT4 regardless of the initiation method.

When Clarkson took the NSX around the virtual and real-world Laguna Seca, he noticed that you could apply a lot of braking or throttle (even going back and forth over and over) in GT4 without losing control, or even losing traction. And he's right.

Hmm strange that one as I don't have any real issue with any of those areas, but I must confess I don't use the handbrake on dirt. Then again it does depend on the car and driver, I honestly think that a lot of people over-estimate how much speed a rally car carries through a corner. I have footage of Stig Blomquist in a range of group B cars with on-board telemetry and the cornering speeds are not as high as a lot of people think. Smothness is the key here for me (as it is on the track as well) and remembering that most modern rally cars are not built to go sideways, the current WRC has little sideways action compaired to the days when I was a kid and watched Mk2 Escorts go past the house on the RAC Rally of Great Britain.

The slower you go, the stranger and more screwed-up GT4's rally physics become. Or maybe that's just me.

I've recently done some GT3 rallying again, and I was flabbergasted at how natural it felt, and how...fun it was. It's still far from true realism, but it's at least twice as close as GT4 rallying is.

 

[Scaff]

That is very true, but the one and only thing that can be done to fix the "Porsche Slide" would be to add throttle, which usually puts the weight back on the rear tires and ends the slide. In GT4 all applying the throttle does is make the rear tires spin, which sends the car around itself. Keep in mind that I am talking specifically about the RUF's, Alpines and DeLorean, and not the lesser RR cars (Beetle, 500R, etc.), which are modeled better because of their wheelbase.

I don't disagree with that but one of the things that the Porsche Driving Book does say is that to use the throttle in this way it has to be applied as soon as the slide is detected, but applied in a quick but smooth manner. If you leave it too late or your application of the throttle is not smooth enough then the load transfer will be too late or too rapid and unsettle the car.

How well GT4 implements in could only be judged by someone who has driven one in reality and in GT4, now I have driven a 911, but not that far over the limits (it was only for about 10 minutes).

Best transition -- the inclusion of the Nurburgring Nordschleife.
Worst transition -- the bastardization of the physics, with a significant step backwards in realism.

An area we agree on is the Nurburgring, but as far as the second one goes you know I don't agree on that.

With some steering- and brake-work, there are many "weak" RWD cars that can produce slides, albeit relatively short ones. The first-generation 1.6L MX-5 Miata is a good example, and the BMW 120's are just as applicable. I know you're talking about powerslides, here, but the fact remains that slides are too hard to induce in GT4 regardless of the initiation method.

When Clarkson took the NSX around the virtual and real-world Laguna Seca, he noticed that you could apply a lot of braking or throttle (even going back and forth over and over) in GT4 without losing control, or even losing traction. And he's right.

As we have discussed before I think GT4 is far from perfect, but I would not say GT3 is better overall.

Slides in GT3 were easier to initiate, but with no transition through understeer in any way and far too easy to control.

The slower you go, the stranger and more screwed-up GT4's rally physics become. Or maybe that's just me.

I've recently done some GT3 rallying again, and I was flabbergasted at how natural it felt, and how...fun it was. It's still far from true realism, but it's at least twice as close as GT4 rallying is.

We will have to disagree on this point as well, GT3's rally was far too easy for my liking, which removed much of the fun for me. I far prefer the more realistic speeds and having to manage the balance between under and oversteer on dirt in GT4.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

As we have discussed before I think GT4 is far from perfect, but I would not say GT3 is better overall.

Slides in GT3 were easier to initiate, but with no transition through understeer in any way and far too easy to control.

We will have to disagree on this point as well, GT3's rally was far too easy for my liking, which removed much of the fun for me. I far prefer the more realistic speeds and having to manage the balance between under and oversteer on dirt in GT4.

Regards

Scaff

I agree. Overall, GT3 was way too easy to control, but I still think that with all things considered, it was closer to realism than GT4.

 

[Scaff]

I agree. Overall, GT3 was way too easy to control, but I still think that with all things considered, it was closer to realism than GT4.

I've just fired up GT3 and then GT4 and run an Impreza rally car around Swiss Alps in both, and in my opinion GT3 feels just plain arcade in comparison.

I used the 'default' settings from GT3 for both cars, which are far too stiff for dirt, yet in GT3 they still allowed the car to be controlled with ease. Slides were easy to initiate, balance and recover despite the cars set-up. The tyres under braking were a big shock, far too much grip was present and understeer was never an issue at all (and it most certainly should be on gravel with these settings).

Switched over to GT4 and the difference was huge, I now had a car that actually felt too stiff for the surface and needed to be balanced in a far more measured way. The tyres grip level under braking was far more what I would expect and understeer certainly did play a part here, get a corner wrong and enter too hot and you are going to run wide. Slide could still be initiated and mantained, recovery was very snappy, but that certain should be expected running a car this stiff (and keep in mind that the GT4 defaults are even stiffer in Dampers and Stabilisers).

The time difference between the was also a bit of a shock with GT3 being 10 seconds quicker than GT4.

I have to say that GT3 reminded me a lot of the Colin McRae and Rallysport series, fun but more arcade that anything else. GT4 by contrast was a lot more involved and required more work to keep the car balanced, now thats more like a rally car should be, a very high workrate that kicks you for any loss of concentration.

Its certainly not Richard Burns Rally in that regard, but its a damn sight better than GT3 for me.

Regards

Scaff


Edited to add - anyone complaining about GT4s garage search system would do well to imagine what a nightmare GT3's would be with the number of cars GT4 has.

 

[mouser]

Here's my opinion on the transition from GT3 to GT4.

Worst
•No Complex String
•No Special Stage Route 11
•Gillet Vertigo is yellow, look much better in red

Best
•No more Rally Liscense!
•More Bimmers (only one in GT3, made me sad)
•Graphics; the car graphics didn't improve a whole lot, but tracks definitly improved, IMO
•Photomode

 

[<_Spike_>]

Here's my opinion on the transition from GT3 to GT4.

Worst
•No Complex String
•No Special Stage Route 11
•Gillet Vertigo is yellow, look much better in red

Best
•No more Rally Liscense!
•More Bimmers (only one in GT3, made me sad)
•Graphics; the car graphics didn't improve a whole lot, but tracks definitly improved, IMO
•Photomode

Amen to those...but...er...Bimmers? you mean Beamers lol

 

[mouser]

"Bimmer" is also widely accepted.

 

[<_Spike_>]

lol fair enough, sorry though, habit of 'correcting' people. I do miss Complex String though... can only wonder why it was ditched.

 

[mouser]

I suppose it was ditched because it wasn't necesary; there weren't any races there, it was mainly used for users to practice driving on different road conditions, since in GT3 you couldn't drive on any track you wanted to.

 

[SirBerra]

Here you go

Gran Turismo – A comparison across the series - click to open

Regards

Scaff

Thanks for the thread. Looks like it should be a fun read.

 

[Tornado]

Amen to those...but...er...Bimmers? you mean Beamers lol

There is an arguement waiting to happen. I too call them Beamers (all BMW's), but many think that "Beamer" only applies to BMW motorcycles, and "Bimmer" only applies to BMW cars.

 

[mouser]

I think it would be smart to stop the discussion now, if there is any risk of a large argument. We've settled our opinions, I beleive, so let's please only talk about the GT3-->GT4 transition from now on in this thread.

[/Bimmer-Beamer Discussion]

 

[Uncle Harry]

Best Transition from GT3 to GT4 would be the Lotus Elise handling.

Worst transition : Events for FWD, RWD, etc are only in Beginners level and not in the harder levels.

 

[Wolfe]

Amen to those...but...er...Bimmers? you mean Beamers lol

Beamers/beemers are motorcycles. Bimmers are cars. That's just the way it is.

I've just fired up GT3 and then GT4 and run an Impreza rally car around Swiss Alps in both, and in my opinion GT3 feels just plain arcade in comparison.

I used the 'default' settings from GT3 for both cars, which are far too stiff for dirt, yet in GT3 they still allowed the car to be controlled with ease. Slides were easy to initiate, balance and recover despite the cars set-up. The tyres under braking were a big shock, far too much grip was present and understeer was never an issue at all (and it most certainly should be on gravel with these settings).

Switched over to GT4 and the difference was huge, I now had a car that actually felt too stiff for the surface and needed to be balanced in a far more measured way. The tyres grip level under braking was far more what I would expect and understeer certainly did play a part here, get a corner wrong and enter too hot and you are going to run wide. Slide could still be initiated and mantained, recovery was very snappy, but that certain should be expected running a car this stiff (and keep in mind that the GT4 defaults are even stiffer in Dampers and Stabilisers).

The time difference between the was also a bit of a shock with GT3 being 10 seconds quicker than GT4.

Actually, I was referring more to racing on the paved tracks of both games. That's why I said "overall." In my opinion, the dirt/rain/snow physics of any Gran-Turismo-style diverse driving sim is not the place to get an impression of the game as a whole.

In any case, as you found, driving a rally course in GT3 is certainly easier than in GT4. That is undeniable. However, oversteer is too easy to avoid in GT4, and braking and throttle don't produce adverse-enough effects mid-corner.

 

[<_Spike_>]

There is an arguement waiting to happen. I too call them Beamers (all BMW's), but many think that "Beamer" only applies to BMW motorcycles, and "Bimmer" only applies to BMW cars.

I was hardly going to get arguementative about it, lol.

@ Wolfe - In the UK, Beamers = BMW cars too...

But that's all another topic.

 

[GT4saleenDriver]

yes, i see someone mentioned complex string, really sad loss,
route 11, well, i could care less about, do they still have route5 wet?
that is good, i miss the glitch in laguna seca, where you could get out of the track, and get your car flying like 100 feet in the air, YAY!!

 

[jbrennen]

First off it is not an automatic given that FR and MR cars will all power oversteer it depends very much on the suspension set-up and layout of the standard car and given modern tyres that the car has sufficent power to break the grip in the first place. A real life BMW 120i or 120d will not power oversteer despite being FR layout, try it and all you end up with is a host of understeer.

Very few AWD cars in reality will allow you to hold power overesteer at all, the vast majority need to be heavily destabilised to do create the oversteer and will quickly recover from it.

+1 on these. I started off autocrossing in an '03 Evo, and got pretty good at it. The first time I tried autocrossing an M3, I expected to deal with oversteer -- it's RWD with decent power, right? To my considerable surprise, the car had serious understeer issues, compared to the AWD Evo.

And the Evo will certainly rotate well when properly setup -- mainly, dial out the substantial amount of factory rear toe-in which is specced to make sure that clueless drivers don't spin the car unexpectedly -- but actually inducing an honest sideways attitude on pavement requires that you really try hard and you probably won't be particularly happy with the results. But even that is tire-dependent; Toyo RA-1 tires like big slip angles and go a long way toward making an Evo highly tossable. I couldn't even get my Evo to hold a low speed drift in snow, something that was very easy in my previous car, an FD RX-7.

 

[GT4saleenDriver]

hmm, one more thing,
in first person view (atleast)
i dunno about the other views,
but in GT4, it has become annoying,
VERY annoying when you hit the walls
great way to make you not want to hit the walls though, so you get better
haha

 

[Jetboy.]

Suprising no one else has yet said this, but I feel a Worse would be the Polyphony Digital Cup.

In GT3, the competition was very ballanced and predictable. One with a slightly lesser-powered automobile was almost promissed a very fun series, as there was almost always a different winner.


Now bring us the GT4 variant.

Competition has faltered off considerably. There's maybe one hot-shoe to contend with, then the rest is complete fodder. Yeah, you have to worry about a 350Z Z-tune and maybe a Z/28 Camaro that decides to rear its head. The, the next-best is an....Integra Type R?

And then we get for maybe 6 laps a race or so. (As opposed to the 3's original 20 laps.) And the purse is...less than thrilling. As is the prize car.

Epitome of GT to Rat-race. Why?

 

[samj_13]

Dead on, JetBoys427!

 

[Tornado]

Suprising no one else has yet said this, but I feel a Worse would be the Polyphony Digital Cup.
In GT3, the competition was very ballanced and predictable. One with a slightly lesser-powered automobile was almost promissed a very fun series, as there was almost always a different winner.

There is multiple reasons for that, and only one of them is the A.I. car selection.

Now bring us the GT4 variant.
Competition has faltered off considerably. There's maybe one hot-shoe to contend with, then the rest is complete fodder. Yeah, you have to worry about a 350Z Z-tune and maybe a Z/28 Camaro that decides to rear its head. The, the next-best is an....Integra Type R?
And then we get for maybe 6 laps a race or so. (As opposed to the 3's original 20 laps.) And the purse is...less than thrilling. As is the prize car.
Epitome of GT to Rat-race. Why?

True (barring the big Merc, Rex STi and Lotus Esprit), but look at it this way: With the A.I. at an all time low, do you want to be out on a track driving 20 laps basically by yourself, except maybe when you lap people?

 

[mouser]

True (barring the big Merc, Rex STi and Lotus Esprit), but look at it this way: With the A.I. at an all time low, do you want to be out on a track driving 20 laps basically by yourself, except maybe when you lap people?

That's why it would make the game much more interesting if there were power limits. I know in some races, the game requires you to have >490 or something like that, so why not a race which requires you to have <490? 💡

 

[Jetboy.]

True (barring the big Merc, Rex STi and Lotus Esprit), but look at it this way: With the A.I. at an all time low, do you want to be out on a track driving 20 laps basically by yourself, except maybe when you lap people?

Very true, didn't think of it this way. 👍

That's why it would make the game much more interesting if there were power limits. I know in some races, the game requires you to have >490 or something like that, so why not a race which requires you to have <490? 💡

Like in the old days of GT2? If you want truely close races, a Power-Weight Ratio limit would be much better. Example: All cars inclusive, 2.750-3.250 PWR. I think that would yield better racing competition, leaving it down to tire choice and driving style.

Yo, PD?

Cheers,
Jetboy

 

[Tornado]

That's why it would make the game much more interesting if there were power limits. I know in some races, the game requires you to have >490 or something like that, so why not a race which requires you to have <490? 💡

I'd prefer if they just put the A.I. back to the way it was in GT3. Yeah, it was rubber-band. But it was also fun. And the A.I. wasn't the perfect, never make a mistake cheaters they are in GT4.
Besides, as Jetboy said, it would be better to base it on PWR than BHP. I remember all too well the 130 BHP Subaru 360 from GT2 that would slaughter anything with less than 400 BHP.