Blu Ray Playback

[Robin]

I have a question,

Is it true that some new Blu Ray movie releases will just not play on Blu Ray players if they have not been updated or are too old?

If this is true then DRM has gone insane. It says Blu Ray on the disk and it says Blu Ray on the player, that should be the end of it and it should be 100% compatable. Just like with CD's DVD's etc.

The Blu Ray specification was finalised ages ago but now I hear things like original Blu Ray players (without ethernet ports or profile 1 machines) will just no longer play anything new!! And now the specification keeps changing because you have to always update security licenses or something.

Can someone explian to me all this because all I see is the honest consumer being done over again with overzealous DRM. None of this was made clear when Blu Ray launched. Why should your have to update any Blu Ray player to play a title?

Robin.

 

[Famine]

No.

There's four existing types of BD playback device. BD-Audio, BD 1.0, BD 1.1 and BD 2.0. Any BluRay video player will play all of them, but if it's an earlier specification it will not be able to access certain features - BD 1.0 is bog standard, BD 1.1 includes picture-in-picture, BD 2.0 includes a whole raft of online features.

A fifth specification - 3DBD - has been finalised and, again, existing BD players not capable of that specification will be able to play them, but not the 3D content.


So whatever player you have, you can watch the film. If you want more features, you need a player capable of them.

 

[Robin]

Thanks for the reply Famine, I kept hearing all sorts of contrasting information around the web and couldnt understand why people were saying they couldnt play newer films on older hardware.

One example was those using a PS3 with sub 3.00 firmware and they said inserting the Star Trek Blu Ray would prompt them to update and if they denied the title would not play. At the time I found such statements bizare and really worrying.

In the end I thought it must have been something to do with the BD Live functionality and if it was turned off in the XMB the film would load and play but I never got a confirmation on that.

Another thing which I found confusing was all the talk about the AACS and its list of keys stored on a player having to be updated once in a while. Again there was talk about how the machine needed the newest AACS lists to decode the DRM on newer film releases, I guess this was all not true.

I can understand if older players wont play special features of BD live content and up coming 3D material but all must be capable of playing the main title regardless of firmware and Im glad it was explained to me. Gosh in the old days of DVD it was way less complex, no firmware updates!

Robin.

 

[Famine]

One of the functions of BD Live is an anti-piracy check - upon playback the disc and the device check they haven't been hacked and communicate this with... something, somewhere. This means that BD Live requires an internet connection.

But that doesn't mean you can't see a film on a BD Live disc without a BD Live player - I just put my Star Trek into my offline PS3 (connects wirelessly, usually can't be bothered) with the router off and playback was fine.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Just as an fyi here; There is a great program that will check every component of your computer hardware to see if its HDCP compliant. You can enter your email and download their BD Advisor program. If you get all green lights after it scans (green light for processor, video card, etc.) then you can play the disc on your computer. Here's the link: http://www.cyberlink.com/prog/bd-support/diagnosis.do

Jerome

 

[Max_DC]

I have a question,

Is it true that some new Blu Ray movie releases will just not play on Blu Ray players if they have not been updated or are too old?



Robin.

Yes it is.

No.

There's four existing types of BD playback device. BD-Audio, BD 1.0, BD 1.1 and BD 2.0. Any BluRay video player will play all of them, but if it's an earlier specification it will not be able to access certain features - BD 1.0 is bog standard, BD 1.1 includes picture-in-picture, BD 2.0 includes a whole raft of online features.

A fifth specification - 3DBD - has been finalised and, again, existing BD players not capable of that specification will be able to play them, but not the 3D content.


So whatever player you have, you can watch the film. If you want more features, you need a player capable of them.

And that's the way it should be.



I have over 200 Blu-rays ( and HD-DVDs ) and I'm also kind of semiactive in highdef forums. The problem is there, luckily not so much if at all for PS3 users.

Some movies simply won't boot, or they boot but the movie doesn't play. There are " workaround" strategies for some movie/player combinations, others absolutely require a firmware update.

But in the end, they will work. temporarily problems resulting from technical evolution of Blu-ray features.

It can obviously affect every brand, LG, Pioneer, Philips etc
2012 is one of the latest movies causing problems with some players. But there are over a dozen other movies I know of.

I don't think that it is a huge deal, since getting a firmware update is not that hard these days...

 

[FoolKiller]

I don't think that it is a huge deal, since getting a firmware update is not that hard these days...

Unless your in-laws didn't consult you before buying their new TV and Blu-Ray player, but they do call you whenever something doesn't work. Then, its a huge deal.

 

[Robin]

Yes it is.

And now I'm all confused again ARRRG!!!.

I had heard similar things all over the web particularly from high def and blu ray forums stating all sorts of problems with various releases on various hardware. They must have really made a balls up of the Blu Ray specification, as technology has moved so fast they keep messing with the spec.

Some people bought £1000+ Blu Ray players in the begining (profile 1 machines) and I would be majorly pissed if it no longer played everything with the logo on it. Even if the PS3 is updatable I am not going to be updating it for other reasons.

I can't believe there is no clear answer to this. Late 90's DVD players still play 99.9% of releases to this day. If Blu Ray cant be the same I will likely ditch the format pretty quickly because Im not going to play pot luck.

Robin.

 

[Max_DC]

Unless your in-laws didn't consult you before buying their new TV and Blu-Ray player, but they do call you whenever something doesn't work. Then, its a huge deal.

Haha, I didn't think about that . Yeah well in that case you or other people with a similiar family situation might recommend buying a PS3, since its firmware update is rather easy and automatic.

And now I'm all confused again ARRRG!!!.

I had heard similar things all over the web particularly from high def and blu ray forums stating all sorts of problems with various releases on various hardware. They must have really made a balls up of the Blu Ray specification, as technology has moved so fast they keep messing with the spec.

Some people bought £1000+ Blu Ray players in the begining (profile 1 machines) and I would be majorly pissed if it no longer played everything with the logo on it. Even if the PS3 is updatable I am not going to be updating it for other reasons.

I can't believe there is no clear answer to this. Late 90's DVD players still play 99.9% of releases to this day. If Blu Ray cant be the same I will likely ditch the format pretty quickly because Im not going to play pot luck.

Robin.

Well, you describe the fate of early adopters in general, don't you ?
60 GB first gen PS3 : loud as hell ( most of them ), 600 EUR, only 60 GB and major reliability problems. Now you get a smooth running 250 GB console without a 80 db monster fan working inside ( and higher energy efficiency )for under 300 EUR and you even get better blu-ray drives that have less tendency to break.

Xbox360 - early ones - no HDMI, loud as hell, 40 % of them had the red ring of death, 20 GB for 400 EUR. Now you get a 120 GB Elite with HDMI, less noise, less power hungry components and almost no RODs anymore.

First Plasma TV's ? 30.000 EUR. They didn't have HDMI, so you can't play Blu-rays on them anymore. They didn't have 1080P, their picture quality is worse than the one of a 500 EUR TV these days.

I'm sure we can all think of a dozen more examples.

That's the way it is. DVDs didn't change. Blu-ray does. Personally I don't really need all those interactive internet Live features, but hey, some people like them and I appreciate technical evolution.

Now it's not that you can't play the movies anymore. You just have to update your player. Early 1000 GBP player without internet connection, how do you want them to access BD Live features ? I guess you have to live with that. Buy a new one for 300 pounds. Probably same picture and sound quality and if you had the money to spend 1k GBP on a player, I'm sure you can now spend 300 on a new one.
Or you can simply live with the fact that you can only watch movies. I guess 95% of the people can. In that case all you have to do is regulary update your player : In the 20th century home movie technology didn't evolve a lot. Today it does and you have to manually update your hardware in order to keep track. I'm pretty sure that within no time those players will update themselves ande the problem is gone.

Until then - just hang in there

( Personally I never had a non working Blu-ray or HD-DVD btw )

 

[FoolKiller]

I had heard similar things all over the web particularly from high def and blu ray forums stating all sorts of problems with various releases on various hardware. They must have really made a balls up of the Blu Ray specification, as technology has moved so fast they keep messing with the spec.

This is different than other early adopter technology how? If you bought one of the first iPods then you can't use half the iTunes store. My new iPod can't use the same charging cables as my old 3rd gen one.

My DVD-RW drive in my PC maxed out at 12X write speed, but they released 16X DVD-Rs that it can't work with, and no firmware option was made available. The DVD drive in early PS2s had troubles reading dual-layer DVDs, this meant that I had to try multiple times to watch Saving Private Ryan (my first dual layer DVD movie) and restart the system on occasion to get GT4 to load.

Going from there, CDs used to be 640MB/72 Minutes, but then they came out with 700MB/80 Minute designs. You had to have a newer CD-R drive to use those. DVD-Rs aren't just DVD-R anymore, you have DVD-R, DVD+R, DVD-+RW, DVD+R DL, etc. And if a new type came out after your drive you had better hope the drive manufacturer chose to give you a firmware update or you were buying a new drive.

Some people bought £1000+ Blu Ray players in the beginning (profile 1 machines) and I would be majorly pissed if it no longer played everything with the logo on it.

With the exception of the very earliest and cheapest BD players, most of them have a USB port specifically for updating firmware. It is what I have had to do for my in-laws on more than one occasion.

Even if the PS3 is updatable I am not going to be updating it for other reasons.

I can't see any reason not to, unless you are worried about losing OtherOS. For the PS3 you lose out on a lot more than just being able to play newer profile Blu-Rays.

I can't believe there is no clear answer to this. Late 90's DVD players still play 99.9% of releases to this day.

Unless those DVD players weren't designed with the intent of playing dual-layer discs, in which case they will occasionally have errors on a lot of newer DVD movies.

If Blu Ray cant be the same I will likely ditch the format pretty quickly because Im not going to play pot luck.

First of all, don't blame the format if a hardware manufacturer didn't include an update system in their player. It was known from the beginning that they would be adding to the technology. The first widely available player (PS3) came with an update process. If Blu-Ray were the same as past formats you wouldn't even have the firmware options like we do today. If people choose to fight a 30 second update process (plus download time) on standalone BD players that grants new features to their system then they are truly screwed if they are young enough to be around in a primarily digital age.



I honestly don't get what your issue is. Today you can upgrade most players without having to buy a new one. This is actually a much better setup than we had for CDs and DVDs.

And if you want further examples of how this is far superior than what it used to be I have personal experience going back as far as vinyl records. No medium has maintained the exact tech specifications from launch to the end of its popular life cycle, and only two I can think of have had a way for you to update without new hardware, and only one of those was designed for that from the beginning.

Similarly, I can point at other modern technologies that are similar.

 

[barryl85]

No.

There's four existing types of BD playback device. BD-Audio, BD 1.0, BD 1.1 and BD 2.0. Any BluRay video player will play all of them, but if it's an earlier specification it will not be able to access certain features - BD 1.0 is bog standard, BD 1.1 includes picture-in-picture, BD 2.0 includes a whole raft of online features.

A fifth specification - 3DBD - has been finalised and, again, existing BD players not capable of that specification will be able to play them, but not the 3D content.


So whatever player you have, you can watch the film. If you want more features, you need a player capable of them.

My Dads Sony blu ray player is an older one (will need to get the model number). Doesnt have an ethernet port.

Before we realised we could update the software download ISO file from Sony Support centre - the player did not play a lot of blu ray films.

Once updated it has been fine. The first film it happened with we took back to HMV got a replacement and it was exactly the same - played on my PS3 just fine though.

The most recent one that we had trouble with was 'The Hangover' the player would not read the disc at all. Once we updated the ISO file it plays fine.

 

[Famine]

Probably a disc-by-disc basis then.

In summary, if you want to be guaranteed the disc you put in will play on the device you put it in, make sure the device is BD-Live compliant. Otherwise it might not.

 

[Robin]

Gosh I guess the world is going backwards then, we have gone from total compatibility in the 80's (VHS, Casette) to mostly compatibile in the 90's (CD, DVD) to 'things that change so much and that are riddled with DRM you don't know what on earth will play!'

If its ment to make are lives easier it certainly doesnt, as for giving us more features and more choice that may be true and they can put out all the firmware updates they want but the actual film should be totally compatible with anything carrying the Blu Ray name.

Being forced to update stuff all the time these days is terrible, and if you don't you get limited or total loss of functionality. And they wonder why piracy is so rampant.

Robin.

 

[Moglet]

Terminator Salvation wouldn't play on my parents Blu Ray player until I updated it, and my brother had the same problem when he tried to play an old Blu Ray on a brand new player. So yes, it's true that some discs won't play on non-updated players but it's in very rare cases and it's a simple case of updating the player via a small update on USB stick and it's fine again. The PS3 is even easier as it will update the Blu Ray movie playback along with the rest of the console update.

 

[FoolKiller]

Gosh I guess the world is going backwards then, we have gone from total compatibility in the 80's (VHS, Casette) to mostly compatibile in the 90's (CD, DVD) to 'things that change so much and that are riddled with DRM you don't know what on earth will play!'

I guess you do want my old man stories, huh? VHS went through a lot of changes. I remember having to select which tape speed to run it at, and my dad's older mechanical button VCR wouldn't play anything other than SP. And if you had one old enough you had better hope it had tracking settings, or you could get a wavy picture that was unwatchable.

The only way to fix this if your machine didn't have it: Buy a new one.

I will give you credit that audio cassettes were fairly standard from beginning to end, although older players were known to wear out if you used a lot of 90+ minute cassettes. Of course, for the convenience of this small technology we basically downgraded in sound quality and functionality from 8-Tracks and vinyl records.

If its ment to make are lives easier it certainly doesnt, as for giving us more features and more choice that may be true and they can put out all the firmware updates they want but the actual film should be totally compatible with anything carrying the Blu Ray name.

My life is easier, because I now know that if it won't play I can fix it with the push of a button. I am not buying things and checking their stats in fear that it won't work, the way I had to do with my DVD-RW drive.

Being forced to update stuff all the time these days is terrible, and if you don't you get limited or total loss of functionality.

Clearly, this is much worse than when we started using CDs and DVDs. I mean, now I don't have to rebuy my collection if I want to enjoy it on my new hardware. Now I don't have to buy new hardware if the tech specifications change after I buy it.

Which is more important to you, your time lost in an update or your money lost buying new hardware and software for the new format?

And they wonder why piracy is so rampant.

If you want to discuss DRM, then that is a whole other issue, but I have yet to hear anyone before just now justify piracy by saying that it was because the new discs have more features and they can't be bothered to download a firmware update.

the actual film should be totally compatible with anything carrying the Blu Ray name.

I want to address this again though. I am not familiar with how Blu-Ray data is done on a disc, but I do know that from a user perspective it all seems to be this interactive system that works interconnected with the film. I would guess that the film itself becomes a problem because those new features aren't in a completely separate file somewhere. I can switch between versions and access menus mid-chapter without putting it in a special mode before I start the movie.

This issue may be a case of how the new features interacts with the movie. I know my in-laws had no problem when they didn't update for BD-Live, but movies with the "Ultimate Movie Mode" type stuff were a problem.

Hopefully someone more familiar with how Blu-Ray works can shed some light on this.

 

[Robin]

Its not that I cannot be bothered to download a firmware update, its because I dont want manufactures dictating what I do with what I have purchased.

If you want to know why I brought this up its because I'm no longer updating my PS3 because Sony wants to take Other OS feature from me. So we update so companies can steal functionality? You prefer it that way?

Firmware updates are also notorious for bricking any kind of hardware or causing more damage than good. If you dont update you also suffer all sort of restrictions.

There are some exceptions, take Windows for example, I never auto update and I have the choice to pick what I want to update or whether I update at all. My PC does not loose functionality I already have if I dont.

You may not worry when you buy stuff now but you will find me reading all the small print on the back of Blu Rays for example looking for the bit that says "might not work on all players"! I never did anything like this before.

I may come across as old fashioned but the point I am making is choice, I buy a product knowing full well what it does and that it may or may not be future proof. If updates are optional thats fine, if they are mandatory to play stuff which should have worked in the devices original release state then its not in my opinion.

If Blu Ray has 'changed' then it should no longer be called Blu Ray.

Robin.

 

[FoolKiller]

Its not that I cannot be bothered to download a firmware update, its because I dont want manufactures dictating what I do with what I have purchased.

Wow, you must hate all the consoles and digital media services then. I agree that it sucks, but until they fix it your two options are accept it or stop buying it.

If you want to know why I brought this up its because I'm no longer updating my PS3 because Sony wants to take Other OS feature from me. So we update so companies can steal functionality? You prefer it that way?

In the thread regarding this I have not made my dislike of this move a secret. I was not aware you were running Linux on your PS3, or intended to. You just mentioned other reasons, which could mean everything from losing OtherOS to your unreasonable fear of bricking.

Firmware updates are also notorious for bricking any kind of hardware or causing more damage than good. If you dont update you also suffer all sort of restrictions.

One firmware update for the PS3 could be linked to bricking. I have yet to hear of any non-PS3 Blu-Ray players bricking during a firmware update.

There are some exceptions, take Windows for example, I never auto update and I have the choice to pick what I want to update or whether I update at all. My PC does not loose functionality I already have if I dont.

How is this related to a firmware update? But I have gotten software for my PC that has SP2 listed as part of the OS requirements.

You may not worry when you buy stuff now but you will find me reading all the small print on the back of Blu Rays for example looking for the bit that says "might not work on all players"! I never did anything like this before.

So, never bought a PC game and looked at system requirements to see if your PC can play it?

I may come across as old fashioned but the point I am making is choice, I buy a product knowing full well what it does and that it may or may not be future proof. If updates are optional thats fine, if they are mandatory to play stuff which should have worked in the devices original release state then its not in my opinion.

You know, I thought your issue was with Blu-Ray, but it seems like more and more your complaint is tied more to the PS3 than the Blu-Ray format itself. If that is the case then I have completely misunderstood the point of your rant, and I will take myself out of this conversation.

If Blu Ray has 'changed' then it should no longer be called Blu Ray.

So, calling it Blu-Ray 2.0 and having signs in stores saying it is Blu-Ray 2.0/BD-Live compliant (I saw them locally) or not wasn't enough? Would you rather it be called Azure-Ray? Boy, will you be angry when you find out about Blu-Ray 3.0 audio discs, or the even larger BDXL.

 

[Robin]

One firmware update for the PS3 could be linked to bricking. I have yet to hear of any non-PS3 Blu-Ray players bricking during a firmware update.

I meant firmware in general could brick ANY device (when I said 'any kind of hardware'), I was not talking specifically about the PS3. There have been quite a few incidents with other gadgets out there.

How is this related to a firmware update? But I have gotten software for my PC that has SP2 listed as part of the OS requirements.

Yes but have you ever downloaded a windows update and lost some functionality of the OS? As I said, adding is fine but taking away or forcing is not.

So, never bought a PC game and looked at system requirements to see if your PC can play it?

I havent bought a PC game since 1998 and in those days it was my parents PC and to be honest I never checked those things myself, thats why I like consoles because your sure it will play as advertised, or so I thought!

You know, I thought your issue was with Blu-Ray, but it seems like more and more your complaint is tied more to the PS3 than the Blu-Ray format itself. If that is the case then I have completely misunderstood the point of your rant, and I will take myself out of this conversation.

I wouldnt say its a rant, is more a shock that in 2010 there isnt a straight answer to my original question. Basically its some might work and others wont.

The PS3 issue has somewhat contributed to me rasing this but I think that the Blu Ray association should have laid out the standards much more solidly before allowing the format to mutate every year with the latest fad. If the main title (Disk 1) plays on everything thats fine with me.

So, calling it Blu-Ray 2.0 and having signs in stores saying it is Blu-Ray 2.0/BD-Live compliant (I saw them locally) or not wasn't enough? Would you rather it be called Azure-Ray? Boy, will you be angry when you find out about Blu-Ray 3.0 audio discs, or the even larger BDXL.

The signage might be better in the US because here in the UK especially in supermarkets there is NOTHING about anything! I could pretty much guarantee if you asked any member of staff they would say all Blu Rays play on all Blu Ray machines.

Also they are telling you that its 'compliant' (what it works with) not 'it might not work on non 2.0 hardware', obviously no company would word it properly because it would be a PR disaster. The same goes for renaming it, people would be furious.

It could have been so simple, all main titles for retail Blu Ray have to meet the original Profile 1 specification and will play on any machine. Any bonus content / disks they can go wild with. Wait till Blu Ray 3D theres going to be even more fun! ...buy new players and TV's!

Robin.

 

[FoolKiller]

I meant firmware in general could brick ANY device (when I said 'any kind of hardware'), I was not talking specifically about the PS3. There have been quite a few incidents with other gadgets out there.

Doing anything with a device can risk bricking it if something goes wrong. A firmware update is not going to brick anything, unless something goes wrong.

Yes but have you ever downloaded a windows update and lost some functionality of the OS? As I said, adding is fine but taking away or forcing is not.

As I said before, what does this have to do with firmware? You are talking about software updates.

I havent bought a PC game since 1998 and in those days it was my parents PC and to be honest I never checked those things myself, thats why I like consoles because your sure it will play as advertised, or so I thought!

My overall point to you though is that despite your assumption that this is the first time an update to a technology has done this, it isn't. It is far from it. My 60-year-old dad just bought an HDTV because he kept putting it off in case they did something different, because as he puts it, "That is what they've always done, screwed over the people that buy it early on." You only notice it now because you can afford to be an early adopter and it is in your face with the ability to do a firmware update. With VHS, CDs, and DVDs we didn't buy a player of any kind for almost two years or more.

The signage might be better in the US because here in the UK especially in supermarkets there is NOTHING about anything! I could pretty much guarantee if you asked any member of staff they would say all Blu Rays play on all Blu Ray machines.


Also they are telling you that its 'compliant' (what it works with) not 'it might not work on non 2.0 hardware', obviously no company would word it properly because it would be a PR disaster. The same goes for renaming it, people would be furious.

The signage was on players, not discs. If you bought a new BD player soon after BD 2.0 they had a note saying if it worked with BD Live or profile 2.0.

It could have been so simple, all main titles for retail Blu Ray have to meet the original Profile 1 specification and will play on any machine. Any bonus content / disks they can go wild with. Wait till Blu Ray 3D theres going to be even more fun! ...buy new players and TV's!

All I can say is that I am glad, for your sake, you didn't buy into HD-DVD.

 

[Robin]

Doing anything with a device can risk bricking it if something goes wrong. A firmware update is not going to brick anything, unless something goes wrong.

Poorly coded firmware can cause bricking, nothing has to go wrong on the device side of things. If it isnt broken and does what I want why do I need more updates and have to take the risk!

As I said before, what does this have to do with firmware? You are talking about software updates.

Yes its software updates but I was using that as an example of choice when updating technology.

My overall point to you though is that despite your assumption that this is the first time an update to a technology has done this, it isn't. It is far from it. My 60-year-old dad just bought an HDTV because he kept putting it off in case they did something different, because as he puts it, "That is what they've always done, screwed over the people that buy it early on." You only notice it now because you can afford to be an early adopter and it is in your face with the ability to do a firmware update. With VHS, CDs, and DVDs we didn't buy a player of any kind for almost two years or more.

It may be true that I now have the ability to be an early adopter but I have the mindset much like your fathers, I try and hold out as long as I can to ensure I dont get screwed over but unfortunately the world changes so fast now that any point you take to jump in will probably be the wrong one. I even held back a year to see if the PS3 was ok and still havent bought a flat screen TV. Im sure your dad must be annoyed that now 3D TV's are coming just after he bought one.

So far my first experience with Blu Ray movies hasnt been an easy one and its likely to put me off the format for while.

Robin.

 

[FoolKiller]

Poorly coded firmware can cause bricking, nothing has to go wrong on the device side of things.

Considering that when firmware does brick something it still isn't at 100% bricking I think that even what can be considered bad coding has a degree of error on the user/device side that is required to create the problem.

If it isnt broken and does what I want why do I need more updates and have to take the risk!

This, I agree with. In most cases firmware is optional, but with new devices designed to work with multimedia they are also including security DRM patches. I believe that separating security patches from firmware would be ideal and then if a game/movie/whatever uses a feature that you haven't updated to it should just make it unavailable.

It may be true that I now have the ability to be an early adopter but I have the mindset much like your fathers, I try and hold out as long as I can to ensure I dont get screwed over but unfortunately the world changes so fast now that any point you take to jump in will probably be the wrong one. I even held back a year to see if the PS3 was ok and still havent bought a flat screen TV.

So, you are aware that these things happen and have shown from your actions that you know things can change. So why are you shocked when they do?

Im sure your dad must be annoyed that now 3D TV's are coming just after he bought one.

Actually, it was the 3D that made him buy one. He realized the next thing wasn't something he needed or wanted.

So far my first experience with Blu Ray movies hasnt been an easy one and its likely to put me off the format for while.

I really wish I knew what it is that has turned you off from it, as I have loved Blu-Ray since before I had an HDTV.

 

[Robin]

So, you are aware that these things happen and have shown from your actions that you know things can change. So why are you shocked when they do?

Not shocked, appalled! Things need better thought and design instead of rapant consumerism, in my opinion.

Actually, it was the 3D that made him buy one. He realized the next thing wasn't something he needed or wanted.

Neither do I, I took one look at a 3DTV demo in store and it wasnt for me.

I really wish I knew what it is that has turned you off from it, as I have loved Blu-Ray since before I had an HDTV.

Theres no real point me talking about it here because its just my experience.

Robin.