Blu-ray vs. HD DVD Discussion Thread

[DuckRacer]

...Sigh. This just won't end.

 

[slackbladder]

Not the Speilberg movies? So Raiders of the Lost Ark etc is "safe"? Hmm..still might need a HD DVD player anyway. Well, to be honest I always intended to get one.
But this has definately come out of the blue. But how long does this exclusivity last for?

 

[Solid Fro]

This reminds me of another industry that bribes companies to retain exclusive content even with technology favoring the competition...

Oh well. Now Paramount has zero chance of me buying their ****ty movies. Sucks to be them.

 

[DuckRacer]

Not the Speilberg movies? So Raiders of the Lost Ark etc is "safe"? Hmm..still might need a HD DVD player anyway. Well, to be honest I always intended to get one.
But this has definately come out of the blue. But how long does this exclusivity last for?

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/33722

Hey folks, Harry here. Woke up with the following press release in my InBox, then shortly thereafter, I received a phone call from Rob Moore, President Worldwide Marketing, Distribution and Home Entertainment for Paramount Pictures - who is doing a flurry of interviews today - in articles you'll read tomorrow in the NY TIMES, LA TIMES, USA TODAY - etc. You see - this is a big deal, because this means that alongside UNIVERSAL, PARAMOUNT is going EXCLUSIVE to HD DVD.
So, the first question I asked Rob Moore was... "Why would PARAMOUNT/DREAMWORKS choose the allegedly losing format in this format war?"

Rob responded that the keyword there was "Allegedly". It seems that according to their studies, the people that buy stand alone players - buy more dedicated film product... so, due to Toshiba's commitment to getting quality equipment at the under $300 barrier - means to the execs at Paramount, that this is the format to support.

I then countered with, "But isn't Sony supposed to introduce an under $300 Blu-Ray player this Holiday season?"

Rob responded that they have heard that, but it hadn't been assured yet. So next, I asked, "Why support either format exclusively - wouldn't providing content to supporters of both formats be the way to go?" Rob responded that concentrating on one format allows them to concentrate on content for that format exclusively, thus giving better product for the format they support. It also means that they can begin opening up their library and getting more product out for the format. Which is a very good thing for those of us on HD.

I then asked when the INDIANA JONES set would hit and if it would be exclusive to HD. Rob responded that on the films that Steven directs, he wants the titles to be available in both formats - so those will be cross-platform titles. However, the rest of Dreamworks, Viacom/Paramount's world... those will be HD DVD exclusive for the next few years at least. Can you imagine BLOCKBUSTER not letting people rent TRANSFORMERS, SHREK THE THIRD, etc? Me Either. This format war is a fascinating chess game, isn't it?

Next, I talked with Alan Bell, the Chief Technology officer for Paramount. He's been in charge of the technological decisions and realities for Paramount, since the advent of DVD. I asked Alan if he was happy with this decision, or if this was something that was being forced upon them.

Alan then went into a very complicated series of statements about how HD DVD was the format that makes sense for Paramount. It's not just a matter of the amount of space that one format has over another. That's a gross simplification between the two formats. You see, HD DVD was built upon... not just the technology of DVD, but the programming software and other aspects. When we began talking about the cost issues - Alan stated it's very very complex, but that the replication facilities that have been built for the mass production of DVD - it's much cheaper and simpler to convert for HD DVD mass production.

For those of us consuming these products - it's easy to simply believe decisions are made due to just advertising incentives, but when you speak to the technology guys inside these studios - you hear that HD DVD is cheaper, serves the technological needs of the High Definition format, that the programming languages are an extension of the established DVD format - so it is easier for them to work with. This decision is about more than an intial Toshiba advertising incentive - the decision was made at a tech level, an economic level and about a cost delivery level to the public. Paramount made this decision from the tech guys up. Here's the release...

Indy Jones and other Spielberg movies = BD and HD-DVD. Everything else? HD-DVD exclusive for the next few years.

And Hollywood wonders why HD media sales are a drop in the bucket compared to DVD sales. Idiots.

 

[Jedi2016]

As I've said, it's all about the movies. As a PS3 owner, this makes me unbelievably pissed that I'm not going to be able to enjoy Transformers in high-def.

I'm fairly sure I'll be boycotting the film, in fact. I have no desire to double-dip a film that's probably going to eventually come to Blu-ray anyway. So Paramount won't even be getting DVD money from me. **** 'em.

 

[a6m5]

It's Michael Bay, brother. You are starting your Transformers boycott, just now? I'm with you on the boycott though. Heck, I'm adding Universal to that list.

If this $150 million bribery is true, HD DVD must've been pretty damn close to folding. This really is a $150 million punch in the Blu-ray's face though, I think. Blu-ray camp should really consider hitting back. Has anyone paid Universal?. What a mess.

 

[Jedi2016]

It's Michael Bay, brother. You are starting your Transformers boycott, just now?

It's not the film, it's the high-def. I actually like the film, but I hate the idea of having to settle for standard-def DVD when I was very much looking forward to seeing the film on Blu-ray. The "boycott" is simply that I'm not buying the DVD. If they're not getting my money for Blu-ray, then they're not getting my money, period.

 

[a6m5]

It's not the film, it's the high-def. I actually like the film, but I hate the idea of having to settle for standard-def DVD when I was very much looking forward to seeing the film on Blu-ray. The "boycott" is simply that I'm not buying the DVD. If they're not getting my money for Blu-ray, then they're not getting my money, period.

I know. That was just my Anti-Bay propaganda. He is the biggest Hollywood sell out.[/more propaganda]

 

[slackbladder]

Speaking of Michael Bay he's not too happy either - link

Megabucks director Michael Bay, the man behind Paramount's summer blockbuster 'Transformers,' apparently isn't happy with the studio's new no-Blu-ray stance -- and he's making his beef public on the 'net.

Paramount's major shift to HD DVD has led Bay to lash out at the studio for whom he just directed one of the biggest hits of the year.

In a post on his personal web site, subtly titled "Paramount pisses me off!", Bay writes:

"I want people to see my movies in the best formats possible. For them to deny people who have Blu-ray sucks! They were progressive by having two formats. No 'Transformers 2' for me!

Dunno what people's opinions are of him (I personally don't like his films much - the few I've seen) but it's not often a Director goes public like this is it?
I wonder if Paramount feel the need to back-up their decision?

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Speaking of Michael Bay he's not too happy either - link

Dunno what people's opinions are of him (I personally don't like his films much - the few I've seen) but it's not often a Director goes public like this is it?
I wonder if Paramount feel the need to back-up their decision?

Yes, this is actually very surprising to see, and unprecedented in the industry.

Say what you will about Michael Bay's films, but no one can deny the fact that he is Paramount's 'Golden Boy', and is one of the most sucessful directors of all-time.

His films have accounted for more than $2.5 billion dollars in box office revenue alone. Five of the seven films he directed (Transformers, Bad Boys II, Pearl Harbor, Armageddon, and The Rock) are among the highest grossing films of all-time bringing in between $250 million and $650 million dollars each. His other two films (The Island and Bad Boys) were also very profitable, and brought in around $150 million each... and these are just the box office numbers.

Video sales are somewhat more difficult to track, but his films have always been among the best selling movies on VHS, DVD, VOD, and broadcast licenses. I'd estimate that in total, Michael Bay's films have accounted for well over $5 billion dollars in revenue, and on a per film average of about $1 billion per film, it makes him one of, if not the most finically successful directors of all-time... and as the studio get's to keep most of that profit... it makes Michael Bay one of the most sought after directors in the industry.

For example, Transformers had a world-wide box office of over $650 million, making it the second highest grossing film ever for Paramount, and it's expected the video sales will break many sales records.

If Michael Bay is really that pissed at Paramount, and he really threatens to pull out of Transformers 2, I expect we will see and hear a lot more about this issue in short order!

 

[Tornado]

While I don't see him pulling out of Transformers 2 as a problem, he does have a point.

 

[slackbladder]

Spielberg seems to be a bit of a fan of Blu-ray -
link

Confirming mounting speculation, we've got exclusive word this morning that Steven Spielberg is indeed "a big supporter" of Blu-ray, and that yesterday's carve out in the Paramount/DreamWorks HD DVD announcement was designed to allow the legendary director to release future titles on Blu-ray.
With many of his early blockbusters distributed by Universal Pictures ('E.T.,' 'Jurassic Park' and 'Jaws,' among them), it was once assumed that the combination of Steven Spielberg's classic titles and Universal's exclusive HD DVD support would be one of format's biggest weapons against rival Blu-ray, but a series of developments have led many to speculate that perhaps Spielberg himself has other ideas.

So does this mean that Spielberg owns his films and can decide who can release them on Hi-def? I know Close Encounters (which is coming this November) is Columbia (i.e Sony) but the fact that his other titles could/will be on Blu-ray is very good news (the new Indiana Jones film is Paramount).
There are some major Paramount films I want though, like The Godfather (as well as Universal films too like The Thing) so I still need a HD DVD player (probably get the 360 add-on).
But it does make life complicated for consumers. I was hoping this format war would be over before long? Will this Paramount exclusivity last long?

 

[Jedi2016]

I think Spielberg has always included in his contracts that HE has the final say on when, where, and how his films are released. Even so far as to force an exclusive studio to release on the other format if he so chooses.

Whether that carries over into films that he's only produced and not directed (like Transformers), I don't know. But the fact that both Bay and Spielberg appear to be pissed at Paramount's decision of "No TF on Blu-ray", maybe this can swing about.

Apparently, Paramount's deal with Microsoft left some "wiggle room", as Bill Hunt called it, allowing them to choose the occasional multi-format title in spite of their "exclusive" arrangement with MS. Personally, I'm hoping that those clauses, combined with Bay and Spielberg's desire to see TF on Blu-ray, will sway them into keeping that title neutral and released on both formats.

It's too early to tell, though. It'll take a few days for things to settle down, and probably a few more weeks before deals are ironed out.

 

[V1P3R]

For example, Transformers had a world-wide box office of over $650 million, making it the second highest grossing film ever for Paramount, and it's expected the video sales will break many sales records.

Kind of like people buying the 360 to play the games on it I have a really hard time believing this film was popular because of Micheal Bay and not because most everyone grew up with Transformers...

 

[a6m5]

Kind of like people buying the 360 to play the games on it I have a really hard time believing this film was popular because of Micheal Bay and not because most everyone grew up with Transformers...

I'd say it's because of both. Transformers name is a huge pull, sure. But Michael Bay is good at what he does. He makes shallow, crowd pleasing films that advertise & sells products as much as Super Bowl. He is a very gifted "Hollywood" director, no doubt about it. It's nitpicky, somewhat anal fans(myself included) who absolutely loathe Michael Bay's way of film making, though I did like "Rock".

I must say, I'm loving Bay's political stance here. All films should be available on both formats. However, that will kill HD DVD format in no time. I have no doubt that HD DVD is close to a survival mode already, and that's why I suspect there were some sort of bribery/incentive involved in bringing Paramount back to the HD DVD camp.

 

[livemusic]

He actually went back on his statement, saying he might return to Transformers 2. Though I don't have a link in English for it.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Last night at dinner I was having dinner with three blu-ray owners, they were pissed about no Transformers Blu-ray and I drank the kool aid hook line and sinker. So at 1:30 in the morning I posted - nothing good ever comes out of early am posts mind you - I over reacted. I heard where Paramount is coming from and the future of HD and players that will be close to the $200 mark which is the magic number. I like what I heard.

As a director, I'm all about people seeing films in the best quality possible, and I saw and heard firsthand people upset about a corporate decision.

So today I saw 300 on HD, it rocks!

So I think I might be back on to do Transformers 2!

No matter what the real truth is, one has to enjoy the humor in it all.... It's like a bad Steve Guttenberg comedy.

 

[a6m5]

Darn. I knew it was too good to be true!

 

[DuckRacer]

So it's looking like Microsoft didn't handle this directly. Instead, Toshiba and/or the HD-DVD camp dished out the money.

Finally today, Kevin and Amir... this one's for you: We've been doing a lot of digging into the events of last week, and have learned from reliable sources some of what went on behind the scenes. And our friends up in Microsoft's HD-DVD Evangelism office will be pleased to know that we've CONFIRMED what they've been saying in recent days: The $150 million payment to Paramount and DreamWorks didn't come from Microsoft. It apparently came from Toshiba and/or the HD-DVD camp collectively. We've been told that Microsoft was involved in the process, but they didn't cut the checks. We've also learned from sources inside the studio and elsewhere around the industry that, despite Paramount and DreamWorks' decision, Warner remains committed to retaining their format neutral stance, and will continue to support BOTH Blu-ray and HD-DVD for the foreseeable future. So we wanted to post this, as we believe it's reliable (the most reliable information we've been able to obtain so far from independent sources) and it clarifies the situation a little bit. 'Nuff said.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

I'm going to hold off judgment, as it's simply too easy these days to disguise the money trail, and it also wouldn't at all be the first time Microsoft claimed not to be involved in a financial transaction, only to have admitted later on that they were.

In this case they are not even denying being involved, and seeing as Microsoft is one of the largest investors in the "HD DVD camp", they appear to be keeping their options open to assume responsibility without necessarily having lied earlier.

Besides, it's actually Microsoft that likely stands to gain the most by keeping the format war alive. As I'm sure many of you have heard, MS is spending a fortune and working very hard on a new distribution method for all HD media. using MS proprietary technology and software, HD video content will be available to consumers through direct live streaming downloads. This will save the studios billions in manufacturing and distribution costs, and increase profits by basically eliminating consumer’s ability to "own" content.

Basically, MS is developing DIVX part 2, only without discs... which consumers who went through that in 1997 know that can't be good for them.

While MS wont admit it in public, basically the plan is to make all films Pay-per-View, by selling limited licenses to download and view films. Granted, this is still pretty far away only because of the necessary infrastructure, but MS already has developed the technology and has demoed it several times already.

But here is the catch, and why many speculate why MS hasn't gone all out to support HD DVD, but done just enough to keep the format war alive. The thought is, just like with DVD vs DIVX in '97. If the format war ends, and the majority of consumers pick a winner, then they'll latch on to that format and it would be to costly to try and get them to switch to yet another competing format.

Thus the theory goes, if Microsoft can keep the format war going long enough, they might be able to introduce their entirely new disc free format and convince the studios to exclusively support their proprietary format instead promising the studios much higher profits. Then all of a sudden look who will be in control of all HD video distribution?

Let me tell you though, I'm completely conflicted, because as a film lover and as a consumer I am 100% against this kind of draconian monopolistic control over film... but as a long time investor in Microsoft, and one getting tired of seeing the stock value drop, this could end up being the single most potentially lucrative technology Microsoft has control over for a long time... assuming they pull it off.

You have to hand it to the majority of early DVD adopters, including myself who tirelessly fought the DIVX format, and as such it was quickly defeated in the marketplace.

I still hope, and even expect Blu-ray to win this war, but if it takes them more than five years to reach a critical mass, I'm afraid MS may steal their thunder before that can happen, and we will all be saying goodbye to "owning" films, TV shows, etc, in the future... except those of us that hold on tight to our previously purchased DVDs, HD DVDs, and Blu-rays.

 

[V1P3R]

That's fine... I have ways to watch their stuff and not pay a cent. Let them screw over the consumer but this one will be screwing them over too.

 

[DuckRacer]

...

Yeah, I have a gut feeling that one of the reasons MS is supporting HD-DVD is so the digital distribution market can cultivate – and have a monopoly on it.

I don't think we're not going to have a disc format for movies anytime soon (within the next 5+ years), though. Look at music for example – iTunes is extremely popular, yet CDs are doing fine. People will still want things on a disc for various reasons.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

Yeah, I have a gut feeling that one of the reasons MS is supporting HD-DVD is so the digital distribution market can cultivate – and have a monopoly on it.

I don't think we're not going to have a disc format for movies anytime soon (within the next 5+ years), though. Look at music for example – iTunes is extremely popular, yet CDs are doing fine. People will still want things on a disc for various reasons.

Excellent points, all of which I agree with. 👍

Just look how well DVD is still selling despite the ease at which one can (although illegally) download the exact same quality film online.

However, as it becomes easier and more convenient for consumers to download video content legally, demand will surely rise. Just look at the rise in VOD services across the country, and the increasing amount of consumers using DVRs to record and watch shows. The indicators are out there that consumers are moving away from live TV and pre-recorded formats, and Microsoft is certainly putting it self in a position to be in control of the spigot so-to speak.

That being said, I suspect your right, and we wont see any kind of mass market online distribution sucess for well over five years from now, possibly not even for the next ten years, espcially if the format war ends sooner, and more people decided they prefer to own or rent HD content rather than download it.

 

[DustDriver]

Here in belgium downloading HD movies isn't really an option, since most of the internet users have a 10GB download limit (luckily i have a 30GB download limit)
There is only 1 isp i know of who has bigger download limits.
They also offer unlimited down and upload for 151,25 euros/month.
That's €1825/year!!!

So streaming movies isn't really an option, because most people can only watch 1 movie/month.
But with digital tv they could do that. You can already rent movies and pay per view.

But i still rather own the disc, so that i can watch it multiple times and on different devices.

 

[V1P3R]

I dunno wtf these guys are thinkin...

 

[a6m5]

No, Nick. We are not restarting the poll.

 

[V1P3R]

Oh, yeah.

 

[Digital-Nitrate]

If you really want to spin your head, take a momen to read up on Optware's HVD format (Holographic Versatile Disc).

I've seen it being demontrated now twice over the last three years and its freaking amazing!

The technology behind HVD is based on Optware's exclusive servo system and CHDSS (Collinear Holographic Data Storage System) which Hideyoshi Horimai, founder of Optware Corp., originally developed back in 1999.

Collinear holography uses a 532-nanometer green laser to read holographic data on a disc. The light from the laser is split into two beams. Data to be recorded is encoded onto one of the beams while the other beam is used as a reference. The two beams interfere with each other inside the disc's recording layer, thus creating a three-dimensional hologram composed of data fringes, and in this way data is stored.

In a nut-shell HVD is capable of making discs the size of a standard DVD, store up to 3.7 terabytes of data and at transfer speeds of over 1GBps!

The same technology is alredy being used by Optware to store 30GB of data on a solid state flash card smaller than a credit card:

They even have the ability to store up to 100 GB on a postage size stamp.

InPhase's has a similar product called HDS Tapestry drives, and Maxwell has been making HDS discs as well.

Now wouldn't it be fun to store 1,000 DVDs on one disc.

 

[a6m5]

Wow. Making quite a headway in this department, I guess. I wish battery technology was making this kind of stride.

 

[V1P3R]

That's pretty impressive but at this point it's kinda like the presidental race, unless you have enough campaign contributions you arn't going to win the race.

All kidding aside I wonder how much that thing would cost.