BMW 3-Series (G20) / M3 (G80) / 4-Series / M4

The E30 M3 is a desirable car. But so is the E46 M3. Look at it.

1062bf0c-bmw-e46-m3-.jpg
 
E46 M3, is not my preferable BMW. I've always seen it as bulbous. Definitely not denying it's performance though.
If I was searching an M 2-door and a nice E46 came along, I'd give it a second look.

My personal link to the E30 and E36, are the DTM-BTCC-touring car era. Those cars get me all the time. I mean, I also loved the Turner Motorsport E46s(mainly for the yellow BBS).

One E46 M3 I do like, the CSL(without the M-tronic? Selectronic? shifter). I basically prefer the narrower looking E30 and E36 M cars.

Anyway, I'd guess an M635CSi/M6 is closer to the size of the current M4. That might be the car to get over an E30.
 
I agree that the E46 was where BMW began losing their way design-wise. Chris Bangle showed up at about that time - the E65 debuted in 2001 - and it quickly went downhill from there. Today, BMWs are a cluster-f of graphical nonsense and if you sat any of their current cars next to their classics you'd struggle to decipher its evolution.

The E39 was the last properly designed BMW in my opinion and the E46 still takes a backseat to it. The F10 wasn't terrible but that's probably the last time we'll ever see actual round headlights again.

Edit: Weellllll, that's embarrasing.



As it turns out, getting rid of a good DCT and replacing it with a slushbox makes your car worse. Who'da thunk it. Also uglier in every conceivable way. That F82 does look quite nice.
 
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From that video, the side shots remind me of the Altima Coupe. I know it doesn't look like the Altima coupe, but it reminds me of one from the side.
 
05XR8
From that video, the side shots remind me of the Altima Coupe. I know it doesn't look like the Altima coupe, but it reminds me of one from the side.
Click to expand...
It shouldn't, because the Altima Coupe actually has a Hoffmeister kink unlike the BMW.

cc_2013NIS002a_640_K23.jpg


VXR
It doesn't look anything like a traditional BMW coupe, that's for sure.
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G82-M4-vs.-F82-M4-Side-Comparison.png


Danoff
The fact that people are still pining after the E30, E36, and E46 does not bode well for the brand.
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They're basically dead as a performance brand. Sure their cars perform well (supposedly, but that comparison video doesn't show it) but they've completely lost the essence of BMW. They're just toys for rich people now. They don't even look like BMWs anymore. The last desirable BMWs I can think of are the E90 series, both the Ms and the regular cars with their stout and modifiable engines, the 1-series, and the current 2-series coupes. If I'd won any of their other cars in a lottery I'd sell them and do what everybody else is doing, buy an E46 M3.

Arguably, the quest for outright speed has ruined their cars. Besides maybe the 2-series coupes of which the M2 is still a ripper, they make nothing that you can have fun in on the way to work anymore.
 
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I was already somewhat indifferent to the last 4er because it was moving away from the 2-door saloon look, but this new one has moved it into generic bland coupe territory. Seriously, if it didn't have that awful nose it would be forgettable, like the 8-series.
 
Keef
Arguably, the quest for outright speed has ruined their cars. Besides maybe the 2-series coupes of which the M2 is still a ripper, they make nothing that you can have fun in on the way to work anymore.
Click to expand...

I agree, and I've been trying to understand why for a while now...particularly because this general concept of moreness over goodness is not limited to BMW or even the automotive industry in the slightest.

My theory is that western culture (including BMW M cars) is being ruined by artificially low interest rates, executive compensation packages and over reliance on the stock market as a segment of the economy and the resulting skewed incentives created by those things. Hear me out.

People want to make money from doing nothing. Interest rates are effectively zero, so people invest in stocks which grow. The faster they grow, the better, and they will reward the leadership of companies who make their stocks grow faster - and to be clear, they don't care what that company does at all (for the most part). It's all about that growth, no other concern.

CEOs want as much money as they possibly can acquire. Actually, they want more than that. Whatever is the most mostest, they want way more than that. Superlatives are simply not sufficient here.

CEO compensation is often tied to stock market performance, particularly bonuses

CEO will maneuver whatever company they are CEOing to achieve the highest stock market performance over all other concerns.

Stock market performance is often directly correlated to metrics like market share growth or sales volume (I'm ignoring the even more ignoble share buy backs which should be flat out illegal)

To achieve high sales volume or gain more market share, products need to be developed with more broad appeal and more moreness than the other guy. More speed, more grill, more interior cubic feet, more wheel diameter size, more screens. If you can demonstrate that you have more than the other guy, you stand a good chance of taking that customer.

Intangible qualities like steering feel, ride quality & balance? Way, waaay harder to market. Do those double wishbones really increase your car's moreness? Hell no! Throw some struts on there, they're good enough! Hydraulic steering...you have to be kidding! You can build yourself a nice little niche with devoted fans (oh, hey BMW 1990s) if you bake in high quality intangibles, but then your market share stagnates, your stock price flatlines (or worse) and your CEO compensation package starts to look a little flaccid. What kind of self respecting CEO is willing to take a normal salary and deliver products with integrity?

So at the end of the day, if you want to know why the BMW 4 series is ugly, generic, and too fat...ask Jerome ****ing Powell.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe BMW engineers and designers really wanted the new 4 series to end up like this. :boggled:
 
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Eunos_Cosmo
I agree, and I've been trying to understand why for a while now...particularly because this general concept of moreness over goodness is not limited to BMW or even the automotive industry in the slightest.

My theory is that western culture (including BMW M cars) is being ruined by artificially low interest rates, executive compensation packages and over reliance on the stock market as a segment of the economy and the resulting skewed incentives created by those things. Hear me out.

People want to make money from doing nothing. Interest rates are effectively zero, so people invest in stocks which grow. The faster they grow, the better, and they will reward the leadership of companies who make their stocks grow faster - and to be clear, they don't care what that company does at all (for the most part). It's all about that growth, no other concern.

CEOs want as much money as they possibly can acquire. Actually, they want more than that. Whatever is the most mostest, they want way more than that. Superlatives are simply not sufficient here.

CEO compensation is often tied to stock market performance, particularly bonuses

CEO will maneuver whatever company they are CEOing to achieve the highest stock market performance over all other concerns.

Stock market performance is often directly correlated to metrics like market share growth or sales volume (I'm ignoring the even more ignoble share buy backs which should be flat out illegal)

To achieve high sales volume or gain more market share, products need to be developed with more broad appeal and more moreness than the other guy. More speed, more grill, more interior cubic feet, more wheel diameter size, more screens. If you can demonstrate that you have more than the other guy, you stand a good chance of taking that customer.

Intangible qualities like steering feel, ride quality & balance? Way, waaay harder to market. Do those double wishbones really increase your car's moreness? Hell no! Throw some struts on there, they're good enough! Hydraulic steering...you have to be kidding! You can build yourself a nice little niche with devoted fans (oh, hey BMW 1990s) if you bake in high quality intangibles, but then your market share stagnates, your stock price flatlines (or worse) and your CEO compensation package starts to look a little flaccid. What kind of self respecting CEO is willing to take a normal salary and deliver products with integrity?

So at the end of the day, if you want to know why the BMW 4 series is ugly, generic, and too fat...ask Jerome ****ing Powell.

Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe BMW engineers and designers really wanted the new 4 series to end up like this. :boggled:
Click to expand...
That's pretty much it and it describes everything. The truck market, the crossover market, the luxury market, etc. But you'd think that somewhere along that profitability journey, somebody would realize that they can spare some dimes to make something cool, like a Fiesta ST, a Focus RS, a Veloster N, a Miata, a GT86, etc. Or even the other extreme of cool but low profitability like a Ford GT, GR Yaris, GT-R and NSX, Viper, etc. I was just about to argue that American companies actually seem the least scared of venturing into these categories, but then I remembered that they've given up on small cars completely, while the Germans still merely dabble in the idea of affordable cars, and the Japanese are borderline terrified of anything that won't sell by the millions. I mean, they've been so addicted to short-term profitability that they forgot EVs were happening! They literally couldn't see past the next quarterly report and now every nation's legacy brands are 5+ years behind on that front. And all the while, the first victims were affordable sports cars that actually give people joy.

Let's all take a moment to remember the numerous small sports car concepts that teased us over the last couple decades, none of which were built, and notably none of which were even proposed by BMW.

2002:

2002-dodge-razor-concept.jpg


2006:

Ford-Reflex-Concept-119664.jpg


2007 (Dodge did it twice and settled on Hellcatting everything):

Dodge-Demon-Concept-front-three-quarters.jpg


2009 (Volkwagen was trying to beat Toyota as the largest carmaker...that was literally their goal, and the reason they never built this):

28285307.jpeg.jpg


2012:

chevy-code-130r-05.jpg


2014:

idx-freeflow-concept.jpg.ximg.l_full_m.smart.jpg


2015:

Toyota-S-FR_Concept-2015-ig.jpg


2016:

470145.jpg


2016:

2016-Opel-GT-concept-front-three-quarter-03.jpg


BMW hasn't even developed a reasonable concept, much less any rumblings of production. Apparently they've stopped making the 2-series coupe because as of now you can't build one on the American website. I checked Autotrader for new cars and there are a few within 500 miles of me but they're all around $40,000 or more. That's 400Z and Mustang GT territory, that's real sports car territory. So as of right now, BMW produces nothing which resembles what the Brand says they stand for, and they don't seem interested in creating anything to satisfy it for the foreseeable future. If it ain't $40,000 and AWD, BMW wants nothing to do with it, the same as Audi and Mercedes.

Let us pray to the Japanese car gods that they'll keep sports cars alive because we simply can't trust BMW anymore.
 
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Keef
Let us pray to the Japanese car gods that they'll keep sports cars alive because we simply can't trust BMW anymore.
Click to expand...

I've pretty much given up on Japan too. I look to Korea these days for signs of anything interesting. Homogenization is only going to increase. Eventually cars will be more or less all be built on a single modular platform with different badges on it.

I'm still fuming that Nissan didn't build the IDX. Cowards.
 
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Again, customers are shopping for a car that is compatible with their mobile device. The more screen interaction the car has, the more attractive it is. Regardless if it has a grille or not.

It's funny what's happening in (V8)Supercars land. The Gen3 car is in development and flappy paddles are a topic drivers of the series don't want in the cars. Among other components like dampers, diffs, etc, things the fans won't see or care about. It's all about the V8 rumble and good racing.

Enthusiasts care, but in the case of road cars, enthusiasts don't matter. Anyone can get an their mobile phone and nearly duplicate a professional photographer's "eye". Same with a non-enthusiast that can replicate a professional driver's launch in a road car. Just activate the appropriate buttons and put foot to floor.

Anyway, I can only gather the grilles are that large because, trying to make the nostalgic kidneys from the 1950s and '60s on this new car, would be like a thoroughbred trying to breathe with a human nose.
 
Keef
BMW hasn't even developed a reasonable concept, much less any rumblings of production. Apparently they've stopped making the 2-series coupe because as of now you can't build one on the American website. I checked Autotrader for new cars and there are a few within 500 miles of me but they're all around $40,000 or more. That's 400Z and Mustang GT territory, that's real sports car territory.
Click to expand...

2 Series officially finishes production this summer, the replacement has already been seen, though whether or not it'll meet your arbitrary price target, who knows.

Keef
So as of right now, BMW produces nothing which resembles what the Brand says they stand for, and they don't seem interested in creating anything to satisfy it for the foreseeable future. If it ain't $40,000 and AWD, BMW wants nothing to do with it, the same as Audi and Mercedes.
Click to expand...

I don't recall making sportscars at less then $40,000 being something they particularly hang their hat on. Besides that, the Z4 and M2 are RWD, not AWD, the M3 and M4 come in AWD and RWD, and the M5 and M8 can be operating with as RWD only if desired. They've also made various attempts at fun FWD cars with the Mini GP's and the latest 128ti, so your assessment is clearly not valid. What do they say they stand for by the way?

Keef
Let us pray to the Japanese car gods that they'll keep sports cars alive because we simply can't trust BMW anymore.
Click to expand...

Yes thank the lord for that pure bred Japanese Toyota Supra.

But, yes.. anyway... despite BMW M having their best year ever last year, they're clearly "dead" because a Carwow drag race video didn't go quite as expected even though the RWD M4 Competition is tested as being faster than the previous M4 GTS. :rolleyes:
 
MatskiMonk
Yes thank the lord for that pure bred Japanese Toyota Supra.
Click to expand...
I was thinking more like the Miata, GT86 and BRZ, Honda's Sports EV concept, etc. Actual classic sports cars, not hotted up economy cars.

BMW M having their best year ever last year
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Wealth inequality also had its best year ever last year. What a coincidence.
 
Just looking at the photos again of the grille, and I'd be surprised if some of the Audis do not have a significantly larger grille area. It's not actually the size of the grille as it is the shape.
 
Danoff
Just looking at the photos again of the grille, and I'd be surprised if some of the Audis do not have a significantly larger grille area. It's not actually the size of the grille as it is the shape.
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Absolutely. I think Mercedes's immense but low and wide grilles are evidence of this. In general a designer always wants a car to appear low, wide, and sleek, even if it's an SUV, and vertical elements work against that. Horizontal lines and wide features help the car or truck appear lower, wider, and longer. Unless you're Rolls Royce or Bentley, "big as ****" should not be the design goal but that's the only thing BMW's vertical grilles achieve.
 
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Danoff
Just looking at the photos again of the grille, and I'd be surprised if some of the Audis do not have a significantly larger grille area. It's not actually the size of the grille as it is the shape.
Click to expand...

Has any BMW designer actually given us numbers? I've heard a lot of "yeah it needs a lot of grill for cooling". Sure, that's fine. Does it need more than the old car? Is the grill area actually even larger than the old car? I'm gonna try to do a takeoff later to see if the actual grill area is indeed bigger than the previous gen car. I suspect that it's not much larger, if larger at all, than the aggregate area of the previous generation.

edit: Decided to do it. Scaled the images based on track width. Not super scientific (perspectival distortion) but I figure it should be close enough for a comparison. New car given to have a 63.7" track width and old car given to have a 62.2" track width. From what I've seen, the area of the number plate is not grill, so I've excluded it. I believe the old car is 100% grill where it appears to be grill, correct me if I'm wrong.

FXlTGTl.jpg

JUmSRnc.jpg


I'm getting 468in^2 for the old car and 454in^2 for the new car. So...yeah. Even allowing for the imprecise nature of this study, this is clearly marketing BS.

edit 2: That's funny, the current 340i actually appears to have more grill area than the M3/M4.
NeNtzhf.jpg


Knocking on 500 square inches, though I'm pretty sure the ones next to the fog lights are fake.
 
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Eunos_Cosmo
Has any BMW designer actually given us numbers? I've heard a lot of "yeah it needs a lot of grill for cooling". Sure, that's fine. Does it need more than the old car? Is the grill area actually even larger than the old car? I'm gonna try to do a takeoff later to see if the actual grill area is indeed bigger than the previous gen car. I suspect that it's not much larger, if larger at all, than the aggregate area of the previous generation.

edit: Decided to do it. Scaled the images based on track width. Not super scientific (perspectival distortion) but I figure it should be close enough for a comparison. New car given to have a 63.7" track width and old car given to have a 62.2" track width. From what I've seen, the area of the number plate is not grill, so I've excluded it. I believe the old car is 100% grill where it appears to be grill, correct me if I'm wrong.

FXlTGTl.jpg

JUmSRnc.jpg


I'm getting 468in^2 for the old car and 454in^2 for the new car. So...yeah. Even allowing for the imprecise nature of this study, this is clearly marketing BS.
Click to expand...

Looking at those two images makes it really clear.... the area above the number plate really does look smaller, and the area under the number plate looks smaller too - by at least the amount of that split in the middle (a totally unnecessary blockage of air added to make the car ugly). The car would probably look just fine if it weren't for the fact that the grill below the number plate is tied into the grill above the number plate making these huge rabbit teeth (or giant nose, however you want to see it).

As @Keef pointed out, it seems like it's just design aesthetics that are well known to be unappealing.
 
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I saw a white convertible driving past today. Yep, looks ridiculously hideous. I can't see how I would want to shell out the money and have to stare at that everyday or have it staring at me.
 
Eunos_Cosmo
Knocking on 500 square inches, though I'm pretty sure the ones next to the fog lights are fake.
Click to expand...
The ones by the fog lights are fake and the top grilles can close completely with shutters. In fact they appear closed in that photo. So ultimately while the regular car is cruising down the highway it's running on less than 240 in^2.
 
Even ignoring the active grille, the top section is blanked off as are the further most slats on each side of each kidney.

Ignoring the slats, this is the max area of opening.

upload_2021-5-3_18-56-14.png


upload_2021-5-3_18-57-5.png



.. having said that, what claim are we trying to prove here?
 
Okay.... I'm not gonna eat crow or a hat or whatever I have to eat to maybe admit doing a 180, but the new M3(even with that nasty front grille), is quite damn nice!

Saw a semi-matte black M3. Black wheels. Fishbowl. Dude mid-40s. Had what looked like competition front seats. Driving by my daughter's school.
I'm really liking that it still looks squared off. The 4-series roof is too low and sloped.
 

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