Boost and turbo lag not right

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* I don't own GT6, so I'm going off GT5 and before
This is all I noticed.

They don't need to map every car to such a granular level. But they must be able to ball park say, 80s turbos might have more lag than a 2014 turbo. And an 90s turbo somewhere in between. If there's 2 turbos that operate sequentially will have less lag. Parrallel turbo will have more lag but amazing boost when it does hit.
From what you're saying for grouping by time period, you would assume the Buick GNX and Ferrari F40 would experience similar turbo lag? They may be similar to an extent, but so are a house cat and a mountain lion. They would have to map throttle plots for each stock turbo, then individual upgrades for each car or you'll end up with the cookie-cutter plot like they do with race exhaust on so many cars.
 
Yea its true like they make torque maps for each car. But having said that they can do it by engine not car model. So rev 3+ 3S-Gte as featured in the mr2 gt-s, celica gt4, caldina etc all covered. Sr20det same thing.

You know what's the point in spending months designing the exterior of the car if it doesn't drive right?
 
They would have to map throttle plots for each stock turbo, then individual upgrades for each car or you'll end up with the cookie-cutter plot like they do with race exhaust on so many cars.

Which is a way to do it that doesn't require hand crafting the engine response of every car in game, like I said. You're acting as if there are two options: no lag or perfect recreation of reality. Obviously there is a lot inbetween those two, and even then if PD cared about lag at all they've had over 6 games to figure out a way to code it in. They have no excuse. There's really no reason why there shouldn't be lag in GT6.
 
Which is a way to do it that doesn't require hand crafting the engine response of every car in game, like I said. You're acting as if there are two options: no lag or perfect recreation of reality. Obviously there is a lot inbetween those two, and even then if PD cared about lag at all they've had over 6 games to figure out a way to code it in. They have no excuse. There's really no reason why there shouldn't be lag in GT6.
I'm saying there's a right way, then the way PD would do it, and then there's ways that might be worse than not having it at all. You'd prefer to settle for PD's way of sliding by and doing sub-par work on the "best" driving simulator on the market? I didn't come here to argue over something I care very little about, so I've said my words and I'll go, but I fully believe this topic should be expanded upon into a poll to see how many people want realistic turbo lag integrated in GT6 or GT7.
 
Here is a skyline R34 MNP building a significant amount of boost with 1/2 throttle, in 4th gear at 900 rpm. No turbo is spooling on a 2000 car at less than 2000rpm.

I've wanted to use this picture for a while now.

194trtw9lwx2hjpg.jpg


And surely enough this is an appropriate place for it. The car in the picture, for a start, isn't even on boost yet. It's slightly on the vacuum side of the gauge. Now, having driven a turbo car for two years I can say that half throttle can well be enough to get such a reading - I should know, I've tried. With the engine doing around 1200 rpm (in the 3rd gear if I remember correctly) the boost gauge reaches zero vacuum as quickly as I can put my foot down by any significant amount and actually begins to produce boost around 1700 rpm, reaching well positive figures (estimated 0,25 to 0,3 bar) at 2000 rpm.

Adding insult to injury is the fact that it's a factory stock '98 Volvo 940 with the archaic roots-in-the-sixties B230 redblock breathing through a 8V head and fed with a Mitsubishi TD04H-13C which is about as low tech as turbos go. So yes, a turbo can very well be spooling on a '00 car at less than 2000 rpm.

Not saying that I think GT6 portrays turbo lag correctly, just that the quoted claim is simply wrong.
 
I've wanted to use this picture for a while now.

d surely enough this is an appropriate place for it. The car in the picture, for a start, isn't even on boost yet. It's slightly on the vacuum side of the gauge. Now, having driven a turbo car for two years I can say that half throttle can well be enough to get such a reading - I should know, I've tried. With the engine doing around 1200 rpm (in the 3rd gear if I remember correctly) the boost gauge reaches zero vacuum as quickly as I can put my foot down by any significant amount and actually begins to produce boost around 1700 rpm, reaching well positive figures (estimated 0,25 to 0,3 bar) at 2000 rpm.

Adding insult to injury is the fact that it's a factory stock '98 Volvo 940 with the archaic roots-in-the-sixties B230 redblock breathing through a 8V head and fed with a Mitsubishi TD04H-13C which is about as low tech as turbos go. So yes, a turbo can very well be spooling on a '00 car at less than 2000 rpm.

Not saying that I think GT6 portrays turbo lag correctly, just that the quoted claim is simply wrong.

So i take it you mean the centre line = 0 boosts a
switch from vac to positive? Possibly. That would make more sense. Yes they can be spooling under a certai revs like I said depending on load I.e more load in 3rd than second. Obviously diesels can also spool below. But general single turbo early 90s sports cars are a little higher in the range than that.

If I changed the pic to showing full boost at less than 1500 rpm on full throttle would that help?
 
I'm saying there's a right way, then the way PD would do it, and then there's ways that might be worse than not having it at all. You'd prefer to settle for PD's way of sliding by and doing sub-par work on the "best" driving simulator on the market?
The best sim on the market doesn't use constant grip multiplier tires or not know how to handle camber and doesn't lack qualification. A constant hard coded turbo lag with maybe a couple of different values for particular cars/types of cars fits in with the level of sim that GT is offering right now and I think it would be nice to have a rather significant aspect of turbo engines modeled at last (that last part being opinion). But with how long it took them to do some things (like even look at aero) all there really is to do is hope.


I didn't come here to argue over something I care very little about, so I've said my words and I'll go, but I fully believe this topic should be expanded upon into a poll to see how many people want realistic turbo lag integrated in GT6 or GT7.
As long as we define realism, which comes in a gradient. The point is

...have to hand-replot throttle response for each car they painstakingly made lag for...
I doubt that to a high degree. There are many solutions for putting lag in the game. I'd like to see PD model turbines and have thermodynamic engine models driving those turbines, but I feel that even a constant bit of lag would add a bit to the sim. At the very least address the discrepancy between the Stage III turbo kit and the game itself if they don't want to bother replicating lag on stock cars.
 
I'm saying there's a right way, then the way PD would do it, and then there's ways that might be worse than not having it at all. You'd prefer to settle for PD's way of sliding by and doing sub-par work on the "best" driving simulator on the market? I didn't come here to argue over something I care very little about, so I've said my words and I'll go, but I fully believe this topic should be expanded upon into a poll to see how many people want realistic turbo lag integrated in GT6 or GT7.

I doubt most would agree with your assertion, and would welcome any attempt at modeling proper lag.
 
The best sim on the market doesn't use constant grip multiplier tires or not know how to handle camber and doesn't lack qualification. A constant hard coded turbo lag with maybe a couple of different values for particular cars/types of cars fits in with the level of sim that GT is offering right now and I think it would be nice to have a rather significant aspect of turbo engines modeled at last (that last part being opinion). But with how long it took them to do some things (like even look at aero) all there really is to do is hope.



As long as we define realism, which comes in a gradient. The point is


I doubt that to a high degree. There are many solutions for putting lag in the game. I'd like to see PD model turbines and have thermodynamic engine models driving those turbines, but I feel that even a constant bit of lag would add a bit to the sim. At the very least address the discrepancy between the Stage III turbo kit and the game itself if they don't want to bother replicating lag on stock cars.
Remember that the PS3 is old technology now, its already operating at close to its limit running the game as is. Throwing in more processes on top of a hugely complicated and resource intensive physics engine might not be possible using the current hardware.
 
A full dynamics simulation of the engine and drivetrain, and its controls etc., probably is beyond the reach of the PS3's prowess, given everything else it's doing in the game.

However, a more naïve approach could work well. I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of a tuneable filter to give the rough behaviour of the boost lagging behind throttle inputs. That'd have to be done per car, and would apply to NA engines, too. The problem is that you'd need a look-up to account for variance in the rev range, or else use some form of physical modeling on that one part.

In short, it can be as computationally expensive as you want; that's always the trade-off, because anything on PS4 won't be 100% accurate, either.
 
A full dynamics simulation of the engine and drivetrain, and its controls etc., probably is beyond the reach of the PS3's prowess, given everything else it's doing in the game.

However, a more naïve approach could work well. I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of a tuneable filter to give the rough behaviour of the boost lagging behind throttle inputs. That'd have to be done per car, and would apply to NA engines, too. The problem is that you'd need a look-up to account for variance in the rev range, or else use some form of physical modeling on that one part.

In short, it can be as computationally expensive as you want; that's always the trade-off, because anything on PS4 won't be 100% accurate, either.
I'm sure it could be implicated but needing to individually model each cars motor response, even in a rough form, is massively time consuming and expensive. Unfortunate as it is, the days of big budget games making big profits are over so no one is prepared to keep throwing money at something that isn't strictly broken.

Of course there is never going to be a 100% accurate simulator, that's impossible, even NASA/BA have a fairly large margin of error in their simulators and they are designed to the highest possible degree around a singular model. With as many cars as GT has, every physics/programming change has the opportunity to go wrong in different ways over 1200 cars, the amount of issues rises exponentially.

I agree with you in sentiment, it would be great if every car and motor was individually mapped and programmed, but in reality its never going to happen.
Maybe a kick starter type of campaign would be the best way to improve development? The developers set a price for to cover the costs (+ profit) and then it is up to the fans to fund it.
 
I'm sure it could be implicated but needing to individually model each cars motor response, even in a rough form, is massively time consuming and expensive. Unfortunate as it is, the days of big budget games making big profits are over so no one is prepared to keep throwing money at something that isn't strictly broken.

Of course there is never going to be a 100% accurate simulator, that's impossible, even NASA/BA have a fairly large margin of error in their simulators and they are designed to the highest possible degree around a singular model. With as many cars as GT has, every physics/programming change has the opportunity to go wrong in different ways over 1200 cars, the amount of issues rises exponentially.

I agree with you in sentiment, it would be great if every car and motor was individually mapped and programmed, but in reality its never going to happen.
Maybe a kick starter type of campaign would be the best way to improve development? The developers set a price for to cover the costs (+ profit) and then it is up to the fans to fund it.
They're already "modeling" engine response in the form of some fudged inertia factor, which will be translated from manufacturer data or guessed for those it is not available for. The work needs to be done anyway, per car, why not do it in a way that is more expressive and, hence, entertaining?
 
They're already "modeling" engine response in the form of some fudged inertia factor, which will be translated from manufacturer data or guessed for those it is not available for. The work needs to be done anyway, per car, why not do it in a way that is more expressive and, hence, entertaining?
Time and money, that's all it comes down to in the end. The basic engine modelling is the same across all the cars from your dihatsu midgets to your veyrons, just using different data points to define power curves and output, its done this way because its quick, easy and fairly bug free. If you start having to programme every engine individually then it becomes the opposite, slow, buggy and problematic.
It would be great, but to make it efficient you'd have to reduce the amount of cars by a huge amount (look at forza 5 for instance), broad car selection has always been one of GTs selling points.
 
Time and money, that's all it comes down to in the end. The basic engine modelling is the same across all the cars from your dihatsu midgets to your veyrons, just using different data points to define power curves and output, its done this way because its quick, easy and fairly bug free. If you start having to programme every engine individually then it becomes the opposite, slow, buggy and problematic.
It would be great, but to make it efficient you'd have to reduce the amount of cars by a huge amount (look at forza 5 for instance), broad car selection has always been one of GTs selling points.
The same advanced model could be used for all cars, also, and the development processes would be the same and have the same level of sensitivity to mistakes (actually, it'd be less sensitive to any one parameter being wrong, but the frequency would be increased in line with the increase in the number of parameters - balance).

This argument never seems to work when it comes to the driving physics (i.e. chassis forces), oddly, and this is something that directly impacts the driving experience. It also doesn't stop developers increasing the complexity and cost of graphics.

The "low" car count in Forza 5 is nothing to do with having to model engine dynamics, mostly because they don't actually do that.

You've got to balance progress with ROI, otherwise what are you in it for?
 
Remember that the PS3 is old technology now, its already operating at close to its limit running the game as is. Throwing in more processes on top of a hugely complicated and resource intensive physics engine might not be possible using the current hardware.
The kind of things we're talking about have been done on hardware older than PS3. The PS3 is more than sufficient to model a car to a much higher degree than what is available in GT right now. That's practically a given. There's an issue in stuffing such a car into a game, but again it's not a matter of impracticality so much as a matter of tradeoffs.

The large number of cars isn't going to be too much of an issue anyway. GT already simplifies things across the board to make any number of cars easy enough to handle. I'm sure they would do the same with engine response, etc. Really, I think all the need to do at the moment is justify all the mentions of turbo lag in game (which have existed since GT1).
 
The same advanced model could be used for all cars, also, and the development processes would be the same and have the same level of sensitivity to mistakes (actually, it'd be less sensitive to any one parameter being wrong, but the frequency would be increased in line with the increase in the number of parameters - balance)
Development, implementation and testing are all massive tasks that take years to finalise, balance this against the potential increased sales to people who actually care about this sort of thing and it becomes painfully obvious that it isn't worth it.
This argument never seems to work when it comes to the driving physics (i.e. chassis forces), oddly, and this is something that directly impacts the driving experience. It also doesn't stop developers increasing the complexity and cost of graphics.

Graphics sell games, its that simple.

The "low" car count in Forza 5 is nothing to do with having to model engine dynamics, mostly because they don't actually do that.

It is directly proportional to the level of modelling within the game, engine modelling might not be a part of that but everything else is modelled to a really high degree of accuracy which means each car takes a long time to finish. If you can model a basic car in 3 days then you can have a 10000 cars ready by launch day, if it takes 3 months to model a car to a much higher standard then the total number of cars will be dramatically reduced.
Quantity Vs Quality. GT strikes a decent balance there, its not perfect but its good enough for most people who just want to race and have fun in their favourite cars. What other game offers you the chance to race and tune over 1000 cars to your hearts content?
 
Mapping accurately turbo power increase on each car/turbo requires much data and many graphs.

However a rough but effective implementation of lag would not be difficult.

1-set a fixed turbine accel/decel rate (like changing the weight of flywheel)
3-use current RPM and Throttle input to determine what the speed the turbine should be spinning (ie the target)
3-manipulate current turbine speed with target turbine speed taking into consideration the accel/deccel rate to calculate new current turbine speed (in a percentage of maximum)
4-use current turbine speed to mix between "turbo power curve" and "non-turbo power curve"
5-profit
 
GT has always had a completely wrong and fictional boost and torque measurment. Its just one more thing that drags this game down for people who care about details, which is more and more of us as we expect the game to evolve. But it doesn't and I'm nearly over it.
 
Yea its one of those things because turbo is such a big deal, so is the power delivery. Afterall GT shows vtec or vvtli kicking in at certain revs which is cool. But boost is not simply linear like a torque curve - its a very mechanical process although it is effected by electronics.
 
R.S
Mapping accurately turbo power increase on each car/turbo requires much data and many graphs.

However a rough but effective implementation of lag would not be difficult.

1-set a fixed turbine accel/decel rate (like changing the weight of flywheel)
3-use current RPM and Throttle input to determine what the speed the turbine should be spinning (ie the target)
3-manipulate current turbine speed with target turbine speed taking into consideration the accel/deccel rate to calculate new current turbine speed (in a percentage of maximum)
4-use current turbine speed to mix between "turbo power curve" and "non-turbo power curve"
5-profit
And the most efficient way to do that, numerically, is to use what is effectively a filter. :)
Then you just get a programmer to build a translator tool to convert physical characteristics obtained from the manufacturer into the coefficients driving the filter, and boom - instant model.
 
@R.S
Your method is spot on 👍. WIth the "mix between "turbo power curve" and "non-turbo power curve" - they must already have a function like this for part throttle operation on any car i.e. you don't get the full power curve at 1/4 throttle. A real shame that they don't do the same for a turbo spooling up.

With no lag, the various turbos just act like a NA compression raise with lairy cam...

... but the NA stage 1-3 upgrades, which actually *mention* a racing cam for NA+3 don't change the power curve at all (apart from the 300 rpm offset).:rolleyes:
 
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