Cap'n Jack
Premium
- 10,118
- South of the South
- GoldMineGutted
Actually, maybe. Right here in Adelaide to be specific.Also, does this mean Australia will have a car industry again?
Brabham BT62
- Thread starter ProjectWHaT
- 85 comments
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- 3,955
- Null Island
- 29,838
- a baby, candy, it's like taking.
- TexRex72
A logical argument to be made in defense of similarities is that air behaves consistently as it passes around an object or an object passes through it. What isn't necessarily consistent is the form that objects take.
If significant differences are perceived between two vehicles, they can be attributed to concessions made in order to conform to regulations, concessions made for aesthetic reasons, differences in the understanding of this phenomenon, costs associated with the development, or any number of other reasons and any combination thereof.
- 23,972
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
I'm personally holding out for the Ferrari Mansell.
It's a damn sight easier to make a track-only car than it is to make one that jumps through all the regulation hoops that even a low-volume road car has to go through.
As it stands, it will wow motorshow goers, gain loads of press through websites and mags etc - mainly through the use of the Brabham name, but virtually no one will ever see one in the flesh. It's not a road car. It's not a race car, it's a track day car that will probably get used on closed track days only to be seen by owners and their family/friends.
- 17,157
- United Kingdom
Robin
Premium
- 16,799
- United Kingdom
It seems a shame to develop something like that then pretty much use it as a PR stunt, even if it would have taken more effort to make it a production car.
Look at TVR, they could have gone the same route with their rebirth, but they went the other route. Brabham could have actually had a chance to make this a brand with a bit more focus on making it a viable business rather than just some sort of artistic flourish.... starting with building something that you can use on the road!
Ferrari have had sillier names!
- 23,972
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
TVR have a history of making road cars, some of which they went racing with. Brabham have no history of road cars that i can think of.
...other than a slightly warmed over Vauxhall Viva
With an over-saturated hypercar market, i can't imagine it's easy to make money from them right now. It's fine if you are a Aston Martin, a Mercedes or a Ferrari, where your other road car profits can swallow a vanity/cock-waving endeavour. But not if that's all you produce.
- 87,105
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
It's Australian.
Along with racing plans, Brabham did suggest future road cars too.
- 2,604
- Banbaria.
- GTP_Venari
Well, it looks a damn sight better than the McLaren Senna. But that isn't saying much.
Would someone please make a nice, clean, pure and elegant supercar? It's coming to something when in the current crop, one can describe the Lamborghini Huracan as 'the subtle one'.
Build the aero in, rather than on. If I wanted wings, I'd buy an airplane.
It does lend further weight to the theory that there's a FIA/ACO group waiting in the wings for all these things to race each other in.
Would someone please make a nice, clean, pure and elegant supercar? It's coming to something when in the current crop, one can describe the Lamborghini Huracan as 'the subtle one'.
Build the aero in, rather than on. If I wanted wings, I'd buy an airplane.
It does lend further weight to the theory that there's a FIA/ACO group waiting in the wings for all these things to race each other in.
- 17,157
- United Kingdom
- 2,170
- Sydney
- Inferno_251
That's even better the fact that it's going to SA. I wish nothing but the best for these guys 👍
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
The thing that makes me agree and like this most, is how true this is. As if the market shouldn't have more contenders and that those contenders god forbid take inspiration from what has been successful. It's quite hard to make something that looks dramatically different from others and still be competitive.
Personally I find it funny and lame that people want to compare every new supercar or SUV/CUV to something out of GTA. Doesn't look like a GTA car to me, looks like something built by a former F1 constructor.
- 11,832
- Marin County
So the engine is Brabham's development of a mainstream manufacturer's V8, but they won't say which one it is. Maybe we can figure it out?
The only manufacturers I can think of that make n/a DOHC V8's of this size are Ford, Toyota, and Nissan. Does anyone else?
For reference, here is the Brabham engine:
Ford Coyote V8 (5.0 liter, crossplane crank)
Ford Voodoo V8 (5.2 liter)
Lexus V8 (5.0 liter)
Nissan V8 (4.5 liter)
The arrangement/bolt pattern of the valve cover and the general architecture of the head are quite similar to the Ford (look closely and you'll see two cast-in circular elements just above the exhaust ports in both the Brabham and Ford V8. The alternator placement is basically the same as the Voodoo.) and much different from the Lexus & Nissan. I'm gonna go ahead and guess it's based on the Ford V8. (It was hell trying to find a picture of the 2UR Lexus V8, hence the extremely bad one )
The only manufacturers I can think of that make n/a DOHC V8's of this size are Ford, Toyota, and Nissan. Does anyone else?
For reference, here is the Brabham engine:
Ford Coyote V8 (5.0 liter, crossplane crank)
Ford Voodoo V8 (5.2 liter)
Lexus V8 (5.0 liter)
Nissan V8 (4.5 liter)
The arrangement/bolt pattern of the valve cover and the general architecture of the head are quite similar to the Ford (look closely and you'll see two cast-in circular elements just above the exhaust ports in both the Brabham and Ford V8. The alternator placement is basically the same as the Voodoo.) and much different from the Lexus & Nissan. I'm gonna go ahead and guess it's based on the Ford V8. (It was hell trying to find a picture of the 2UR Lexus V8, hence the extremely bad one
)
- 11,832
- Marin County
Perhaps coincidentally, Mast Motorsport has a 5.4 liter stroked version of the Voodoo engine with reportedly around 600whp. Assuming typical drivetrain loss, that is about what Brabham is claiming. The Brabham engine also sounds like it has a flat-plane crank, like the Voodoo. Based on outward appearance, this is not quite the Brabham engine, but it could be the basis for it.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
What do you mean by basis exactly? The group you've brought up is primarily an LS supplier and this seems to be their first current age Ford engine build. Not that it is impossible for them to do it justice, but probably wouldn't be up Brabham's ally considering it is a low end American builder/distributor. Seems like their are plenty of British and more so Australian builders for these type of motors, if it is a stroked 5.2 Coyote. A bit surprised they haven't given more details on that end.
- 11,832
- Marin County
I'm pointing out that stroked 5.4 Voodoos with approximately the same power have been built before, meaning that it seems possible that is what this engine is. Mast was the only one I could find that is building a crate version of a 5.4 Voodoo. Are there others? I've read that Ford is limiting the production of these engines, so they are probably are not so easy to get ahold of.
From what I've seen, the folks at Brabham don't want to be associated with a mainstream engine, to the point where they will not reveal the source when asked directly.
McLaren
Premium
- 45,498
- Texas
I'd rule out the Lexus V8. After my own experience with it & Lexus' short so-so history with it, it doesn't strike me as the choice of V8 for a new high performance car. Not sure how they would go about sourcing it from Toyota, either. They seem adamant that they've gotten the engine to where they want it until the next gen. with rumors of turbocharging it.
I would go with one of the Ford V8s; Koenigsegg had great success with them, so it wouldn't surprise me if Brabham went the same route.
I would go with one of the Ford V8s; Koenigsegg had great success with them, so it wouldn't surprise me if Brabham went the same route.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Well yeah, most engines these days have such a quick tuner work around that it's not surprising an engine that's been on the market for a couple years has support to that level or higher.
Not easy to get a hold of??? https://www.jegs.com/i/Ford-Perform...MI942ki7L02gIVgwOGCh0G7AtuEAYYASABEgK0f_D_BwE
Probably worried it would undermine the price tag they're asking for. Though it seems strange, other manufactures of high end hyper cars had no issue saying they were using a modular ford or ls chevy at the heart of a car, with a million dollar price tag.
- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
The McLaren Mansell will have a lot more room inside.
- 11,832
- Marin County
I'm talking specifically about the GT350's Flat-Plane Voodoo, not the regular Coyote. The Aluminator you posted is a cross-plane engine. Admittedly, I'm not sure how much effort would be required to turn an aluminator into a flat-plane engine, but I imagine starting with a Voodoo is easier. Based on the sound the engine makes and the header configuration shown, I'm fairly convinced it's a flat-plane V8.
That is what I was thinking as well. I can't think of a genuine high-end manufacturer that uses a mainstream engine (not counting AMG V12 as mainstream) that has truly achieved the status of the established players aside from Koenigesegg, and they too have gone the direction of "we've changed so much it's actually our engine'. Brabham seems fairly serious about this car and I don't think they want to give anyone a reason to cynically write it off as just a 'built in a shed supercar'.
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- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
That's not the regular Coyote that'd be a 5.0. The point is for some time now, people could get the GT350 parts, the only thing Ford refuses to do, is provide the flat plane crank or a complete assembly. However, one could get that done at a reliable builder/tuner https://www.svtperformance.com/2015/11/30/new-products-gt350-5-2-liter-engine-parts/
For the Voodoo to be used it would probably require agreement from Ford on their most coveted engines currently, until they say otherwise we have no idea as has been stated when they released the sound bite teaser. It's possible, but it's possible someone else could have manufactures it too. I still think Judd is an option potentially their engines make around the same numbers.
Koenigsegg started that way, Ascari uses a V8 BMW, Hennessy with an LS, Gumpert with Audi engines, Saleen with Ford engines and SCC. Then there are sport car niche makers like Ginetta and TVR using Fords. It really does seem like a norm to use performance engines from a trusted established mainstream manufacture. If after this phase and the manufacture succeeds and becomes a mainstay like McLaren or Koenigsegg they tend to then try and develop their own engines or get the right to a certain architecture and then redesign and develop.
- 11,832
- Marin County
Reading the press release on the Mast engine again, I see what you mean. Who knows. What is Judd up to these days anyways? Maybe they have a deal with insurance companies to buy Voodoos from totaled GT500s.
I don't know if you could really say that Ascari, Gumpert, Saleen, or Hennessy are genuinely established players in the same way that Pagani & Koenigsegg have managed. I don't think any of the former remained in production for very long or at least continuously. TVR & Ginetta are in a totally different realm, and both of those companies' ethos suits using mainstream engines fairly well (aside from TVR's weird period when they built their own engines and killed themselves in the process).
edit: a quick trawl of the internet turned up these production numbers: Ascari KZ1: 50, Gumpert Apollo: Somewhere around 50, Saleen S7: Somewhere around 75 (including race cars?), Henessey Venom: 13.
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- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
Reading the press release on the Mast engine again, I see what you mean. Who knows. What is Judd up to these days anyways? Maybe they have a deal with insurance companies to buy Voodoos from totaled GT500s.
That would be a pretty funny deal
The point of bringing those up is they are low production cars on purpose, just like the BT62 is and they came from investment ventures. I wouldn't compare Brabham to Pagani or Koenigsegg, because it's not established. I name that was associated with Formula 1 nearly 30 years ago isn't enough, especially when there probably isn't too many in the market that know or care about that. They want to know the car is well built, will do the job it claims, and do so better than others to a point that it will resale based on it.
Right now Brabham is on the same level as most of those I named, and really my point in naming those was to show that many groups start with the use of a sourced mainstream engine. So it wouldn't surprise me if Brabham did as well. But again I feel it is still early days and a lot could go wrong with this outing. Lotus too thought they could sale off a former F1 name even bigger than Brabham.
