Brake balance

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You really suprise me EERS4YEARS ! You have a completly other opinion then all the top tuners. In all cars I tune I set rear higher because I want some oversteer, not that I is a good tuner but I sure can tell difference of understeer and oversteer..
 
Question for every one how are you braking? From what I read so far I gather every one has found a technique to manipulate the balance of the vr cars. All my brake setups are done in the traditional way and I’m still as fast as or faster than some of the GT5P driver’s that are using this technique. Not all of them just some, tuners out there are getting crazy time some I’ve never thought of in GT5P. I’ve even thought about asking some of the tuners for advice but I decided not to. If you look at the history of Gran Turismo carefully you’ll notice a lot of changes from Gran Turismo One to Gran Turismo 5P. Some of us remember that in Gran Turismo One there was damage in Arcade mode only. You had performance, engine, and drive train, aero, chase damage but now tire wear. In Gran Turismo 2 and 3 all of that was removed due to manufactures didn’t want there cars to show any type of damage. In Gran Turismo 4 it only had tire wear which I loved, it made setting up our cars more challenging for 50 to 60 lap runs on the endures. For the ones that have mastered that knows what I’m speaking of. Now in Gran Turismo 5P when we go off track on come back on we have dirt on the tires and it only takes two turns to get them clean and a some what of a tire warming only when you’re on race tires. With the knew info we received on the weather ( which in turn will effect track temp which should give us the ability to change tire pressure.) along with damage which in turn will change the way some of us drive ( mainly speaking of the bashers who use there cars as tanks to get down the track faster. You none driving fools wont be that fast any more.) Now that Gran Turismo will have full rain on every aspect of motor sport racing given the history. This may be a new chapter in Gran Turismo which may in turn help change the whole Auto and Motor Sports world. Citroen has already used Gran Turismo programming to design the GT. Final question, who thinks they’ll be at the same speed once the long awaited GT 5 get here?
 
I also think that the default 5/5 brake distribution reflects the car's stock setting and the actual brake distribution is different for each car, but Scaff would probably disagree. I remember he recommended a 4/1 setting to make it realistic for stock cars, but that was a long time ago and things might have changed after the recent updates. By the way there is a huge thread called "GT4 and Brakes" if you do a search. It is about GT4, but you might find it useful.
 
"by setting your front brakes more sensitive than the rear brakes, you can deliberately encourage your car to oversteer"

"by setting your rear brakes more sensitive than your front brakes you can deliberatly encourage your car to understeer"

Quotes Straight out of the quick tune menu...

front higher=oversteer
rear higher=understeer

Im fairly certain my 2 examples I gave in the earlier post were exactly how Brake Bias works in the game, and in real life.
Well, it doesn't in the game (in race situations anyway). And I don't work by quicktune menu descriptions, I take the car to the track and try which setting work best. Try the R35 GT-R, set Physics to PRO, ABS to 1 and set the brakes to 1/9, take it for a few laps on Suzuka, then try the same with the brakes at 9/1.

A simple question will answer everything, When doing Doughnuts in a car, is it better to have Front or Rear Brake Bias?
Well, to spin around in circles is the ultimate oversteer... (front brake bias is the answer)
Your question and its answer don't mean a thing. Seriously, you don't understand that the powers at work and weight transfer in both situations are completely different?
 
Well, it doesn't in the game (in race situations anyway). And I don't work by quicktune menu descriptions, I take the car to the track and try which setting work best. Try the R35 GT-R, set Physics to PRO, ABS to 1 and set the brakes to 1/9, take it for a few laps on Suzuka, then try the same with the brakes at 9/1.
I agree on the testing but I have to desagree on pushing the brakes above 7 or 8 on any cars setup. I find I get to much lock up even with ABS set to one. You can tell when you get lockup is when your wheel skips. ( slight turns in straight line or turn braking) You'll onlu be able to fell this in the wheel if your force is set to 10 and power-assisted steering off.

Zuel, GT2 was the game that had damage (to alignment) in Arcade mode.
Very true I forgot about that.
 
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I agree on the testing but I have to desagree on pushing the brakes above 7 or 8 on any cars setup.
Well, try something like 2/7 and 7/2 instead, the GT-R is pretty tailhappy under braking at 5/5 already. :)
 
Erm, as much as possible you should brake in a straight line - any braking you do whilst cornering will not be (potentially at least) as effective. Google "Friction Circle" for a better understanding of how it works, but basically the more grip you are using to brake, the less there is left over to turn and vise-versa. Same goes for acceleration.

And the reason most cars have the brakes biased towards the front is because of weight transfer. As soon as you hit the brakes, the weight of the car shifts forward and leans harder on the front suspension, meaning more grip for the front tyres and less for the rears.

The friction circle is a good way to explain why increasing rear bias induces oversteer not understeer. Say that during braking you are using 40% of the available traction on the front tires to brake and 60% of the available traction on the rear tires. Now take a corner, the fronts still have 60% traction left to use for cornering but the rears have only 40%. If the car doesn't have a tendency for over or understeer (without braking) the rear tires will reach their limit first. Thus you will get oversteer.
 
Well, try something like 2/7 and 7/2 instead, the GT-R is pretty tailhappy under braking at 5/5 already. :)

Those numbers are to far off for me. I like to have them a pont or two between them. If not my breaking is very unsteady for me.
 
Well, it doesn't in the game (in race situations anyway). And I don't work by quicktune menu descriptions, I take the car to the track and try which setting work best. Try the R35 GT-R, set Physics to PRO, ABS to 1 and set the brakes to 1/9, take it for a few laps on Suzuka, then try the same with the brakes at 9/1.

The point of difference i believe is ABS On or Off, and i think its a flaw in the ABS modelling that makes it act like traction control for braking more than anything. If you set up any car with an equal or stronger rear bias WITHOUT ABS, you will spin the car, or lock the brakes horribly. With ABS on though, you get the oversteer advantage of having a high rear bias without the consequences of locking the wheels.

I've been playing around alot with Brake Bias and ABS the past few days since the return of 750pp pro events. Setting a higher rear bias in the brakes with ABS set to 1, you can get the car turned in and pointing at the apex much later and much easier than a higher Front bias. Extremely handy for Suzuka in particular, and the last sector of Fuji. In fact, going from my normal settings with ABS=0 to rear biased ABS=1 settings, i have cracked my fastest time by 2 seconds breaking into the 1:58 barrier. Previous to that i was outside of 2minutes and was trying to figure out how players were getting 1:56's in the Corvette. Since adjusting the brake bias and putting a few fast laps in, i can certainly see how its done and its just a matter of time until im into the 57's and then (fingers crossed) 56's

I'm hoping PD fix the ABS for the full release of GT5, as i dont really enjoy having to use ABS to be competitive.
 
I have a very strong feeling once the final version of GT5 is released the tuners or people that are getting these crazy times in cars that wont normally do so wont be able to come close or even get near those times any more. It will just show who is truly fast and who’s not. Trust this PD should have every aspect fixed. If you don't think so just wait.
 
It will still be a level playing field for everyone. The scary fast people now will still be scary fast, even if they have to relearn how to set up their car.
 
Maybe so but I think they already have a fix for that.
 
Those numbers are to far off for me. I like to have them a pont or two between them. If not my breaking is very unsteady for me.
I mentioned those settings as an easy example to show what effect they have in game. By no means use them in a race. ;)

The point of difference i believe is ABS On or Off, and i think its a flaw in the ABS modelling that makes it act like traction control for braking more than anything. If you set up any car with an equal or stronger rear bias WITHOUT ABS, you will spin the car, or lock the brakes horribly. With ABS on though, you get the oversteer advantage of having a high rear bias without the consequences of locking the wheels.
True, ABS prevents the wheels from locking, so you get a nice oversteer effect rather than a horrible spin. With ABS off however, the horrible spin is still an effect of rear wheels losing traction = extreme oversteer, causing the car to spin out. :) So the way you tune stays the same, it's just that the settings will be less extreme (you can get away with a 9/9 brake setting using ABS, try that with ABS off :P). And I have tuned with ABS off in the past, but since everybody is using ABS=1, I no longer do that. :)
 
I'm not speaking of the RBE (rubber band effect)
 
Brake bias wont naturally induce under or oversteer if you stay within the limits of the tires, because braking distribution doesn't affect weight transfer (suspension and centre of gravity height affect this).

However too much front bias means if you are heavy under brakes, the front tires are on the limit of traction, so if you then try and turn, the car wont want to turn, so you induce understeer by the nature of you have used up all the available grip.

If you have too much rear bias, the car will be unstable under brakes. Remembering the car will go where the rear wheels point (as they dont change alignment with the chassis but the front wheels do when you steer). If you have too much rear bias the rear wheels wont have enough traction to keep the chassis straight so any disturbance will make the car unstable. This is kinda like oversteer.

Doing donuts, the only thing brake bias has to do here is keep the car in position while you shred the rear wheels. If you had rear bias, the brakes would slow down the rear wheels which stops them spinning... donuts are not "oversteer" in the racing sense :P
 
Look into the history of GT then get back to me on the fix.
 
The point of difference i believe is ABS On or Off, and i think its a flaw in the ABS modelling that makes it act like traction control for braking more than anything. If you set up any car with an equal or stronger rear bias WITHOUT ABS, you will spin the car, or lock the brakes horribly. With ABS on though, you get the oversteer advantage of having a high rear bias without the consequences of locking the wheels.


I've been playing around alot with Brake Bias and ABS the past few days since the return of 750pp pro events.
I'm hoping PD fix the ABS for the full release of GT5, as i dont really enjoy having to use ABS to be competitive.

Hopefully this will happen.
PD,make one Simulation race.Only for wheel(s),clutch,incar view and ABS 0.That will tell you much about the level where consol gamers are?Are there any others than us 3.
 
Ok, so the brake bias generally should be stronger at the front, but because of the way the ABS works in the game, unless you drive with no ABS, you can get useful oversteer by having stronger bias at the back. Then its up to you to get the right tune of it for yourself?
This is what I have got from what people have been posting. If im off here can someone correct me.
 
True but that will all change soon. The best advice I can give you is this set up your car for racing which in turn means no sliding, no tire smoking and so on.
 
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I drive no ABS in the F40 and am, competitive i believe, although i'm competitive amongst other F40 drivers, as the car is slow compared with others at set PP events. I've done a 2:28.828 on N3 tires with ABS=0 @ 550pp, i dont know of anyone doing the same lap time, ABS=1 or not.

I usually drive No ABS in most of my cars, but as i've been competing in the Aus/NZ MNR i've found i've had to go ABS=1 to keep in touch with the top drivers.

ABS=1 should be faster than ABS=0 because ABS on allows you to do things you couldnt do in real life, i believe it prevents spinning and traction loss entirely under braking. Its like having ASM and Traction Control on, except for braking. Hopefully its better modelled in the full game, but im not holding my breath for that.
 
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ABS=1 should be faster than ABS=0 because ABS on allows you to do things you couldnt do in real life, i believe it prevents spinning and traction loss entirely under braking. Its like having ASM and Traction Control on, except for braking. Hopefully its better modelled in the full game, but im not holding my breath for that.
If it's modelled properly, ABS on could actually be slower than ABS off, since it increases your braking distances (as opposed to braking properly).
 
When we get private rooms do you think people will be more interested in racing each other with no one using ABS???? Im pretty sure most of the people that race the pro physics events would much rather have the physics be more real, and as you said the ABS on 1 makes you able to do things that you couldnt do in real life. Why is it people race with the ABS on 1 anyways? Is the braking in GT5:P unrealistic or something?
 
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When we get private rooms do you think people will be more interested in racing each other with no one using ABS???? Im pretty sure most of the people that race the pro physics events would much rather have the physics be more real, and as you said the ABS on 1 makes you able to do things that you couldnt do in real life. Why is it people race with the ABS on 1 anyways? Is the braking in GT5:P unrealistic or something?

The arguement is (this is from way back) that there is no feedback in the brakepedal, therefore the art of braking with ABS=0 is pointless without proper feedback in the brakepedal.
 
The arguement is (this is from way back) that there is no feedback in the brakepedal, therefore the art of braking with ABS=0 is pointless without proper feedback in the brakepedal.
In addition to that, your body does not experience the physical deceleration force in GT - in real life, this sensation is a great calibration tool for brake application.

What's more, sonic feedback from the tyres in GT is lacking. When a tyre starts to lock up in real life, you can hear it starting to squeal, faintly at first, and react quickly. In GT, I don't remember hearing any squealing even from a fully brake-locked tyre (correct me if that's wrong, been ages since I tried ABS off).
 
You can definantly tell when the tire is locked up, but your correct about the lack of feedback before a tire is about to lock up, i guess i've learned by trial and error mostly.

Although since Spec3 the braking has become alot better, before spec3 it was extremely hard to trail brake ABS=0 and was often getting outbraked because of it, but since Spec3, you can brake very hard and late into a corner, and with correct management of the brake pedal you can trail brake all the way into the corner almost just as you could with ABS=1
 
Brake bias wont naturally induce under or oversteer if you stay within the limits of the tires, because braking distribution doesn't affect weight transfer (suspension and centre of gravity height affect this).

However too much front bias means if you are heavy under brakes, the front tires are on the limit of traction, so if you then try and turn, the car wont want to turn, so you induce understeer by the nature of you have used up all the available grip.

If you have too much rear bias, the car will be unstable under brakes. Remembering the car will go where the rear wheels point (as they dont change alignment with the chassis but the front wheels do when you steer). If you have too much rear bias the rear wheels wont have enough traction to keep the chassis straight so any disturbance will make the car unstable. This is kinda like oversteer.

Doing donuts, the only thing brake bias has to do here is keep the car in position while you shred the rear wheels. If you had rear bias, the brakes would slow down the rear wheels which stops them spinning... donuts are not "oversteer" in the racing sense :P

I can't believe I didn't think to say this earlier, something I've always known.:dunce: Put simply, think of it like allocating the tyre's available grip. Let's say, by complete random out of the air numbers, the front tyres allocate 70% of their total available grip to braking, and the rears 50% of their available grip to braking (while braking), at a brake balance of 5/5, which would actually= 100% available stopping power from the brakes themselves. By moving that bias towards the rear, say now the front uses 60% of its grip for braking as does the rear, then the front tyres now have more available grip for turning (40% of its available grip) which means the front tyres can bite into the corner better. That's why the brake balance works the way it does.
 
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