Tired Tyres
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That would be trying to put out the Nationist right ringer fire by pouring petrol on it.
Brexit - The UK leaves the EU
- Thread starter Touring Mars
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The longer this goes, the smaller that fire burns. You'll notice that there are no new pushers of this insane, racist movement, just the same tired old ones.
Is that? Have you seen to Belgium? Van Grieken is fairly young, so is Francken.
I agree there are less new pushers but if they do their 'job' right they can create a new generation of racist and/or nationalistic pricks.
Again there is nothibg wrong with being proud of your country for what they actively do. But then your proud of what they do not of the country in and of itself.
Edit: To expand upon this. Our economy is taking a battering and has done since We voted to leave. It continues to get worse and while poverty often helps increase right-wing political support, I feel like in this instance it will actually do the opposite. While I'm not saying the UK will swing into a socialist state and gleefully take a ramming from the EU to rejoin, the process of Brexit, when all is said and done, will have destroyed the current political class and replaced it with another one.
The only way to rebuild the country and for the new political class to become truly wealthy would be to rejoin the Union, and this will be the driving force.
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I don't think the UK will ever rejoin the EU, not least because the terms of re-entry would be way beyond what the UK was comfortable with when it was already a member. Even if there was a referendum on re-joining next year, the UK can expect to be out of the EU for several years, by which point some of the benefits of not being inside the EU may have started to kick in. I also strongly suspect that there will be at least one other country vying to leave the EU by then too, which will further complicate matters. Rejoining the EU will not be like Brexit insomuch as we do at least hold some of the cards and it is (technically, at least) a matter of negotiation as to how Brexit ends up - but rejoining the EU in the future will simply be a case of submitting lock, stock and barrel to whatever the terms are on offer at the time. There's not a chance that the UK people will vote en masse to not only reverse Brexit, but to go 'full Europe' instead.
I respect your opinions and posts, but I don't agree on this at a fundamental level. I don't think there will be, at any point a benefit to being outside the worlds biggest economy, especially as our own economy is service based.
For my mind, I can't see how leaving (no-deal or not), will be anything other than catastrophic for our economy. Remember why we joined in the 1970's? I see our future very much like that, only more acute. While yes it is hard to predict the nature of the EU in 5-7 years time, I find it hard to imagine that if things continue how they are, we'll still be using the £ in 10 years time.
Tired Tyres
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Ah ok fair enough my bad! (sorry @Mr Tree )
Though that said France and Germany have had polls that suggest those nations would be willing to have greater integration. I think it true integration happened it would be fair more cautious than the Euro roll-out, given how poorly that has gone and how massively it's backfired.
I think a slow build up of nations into a core European country, would be a smart way to go. Modelled on the US, the slower it is built the less conflict is likely to arise and the easier the problems around funding can be sorted.
I think given all the information, leaks and discoveries it's clear that the vast majority of the extreme right has been and is funded by Russia, as such its becoming easier and easier to dismantle the extreme right (at least from what I can tell).
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Don't think that's ever been threatened has it?
Is France just a state in the "United States of Europe"?
Or a strong, proud nation in its own right, also willing to collaborate and cooperate with neighboring countries for mutual benefit?
Tired Tyres
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Yes it is a strong and proud nation. There is no United States of Europe yet.
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It's definitely being considered, that's for sure. Angela Merkel said in 2012 that the Eurozone is moving 'inevitably towards political union', requiring nations to 'cede sovereignty' and to 'give Europe control', and it now looks more and more like she was right. However, it is also becoming clear that the motivation for further integration is not because things are working so well that they may as well make things even easier for everyone, but almost the total opposite - that things are not very going well at all (sovereign debt crises, mass migration, mass youth unemployment, stagnant growth etc.) and the Eurozone is finding itself divided and unable to solve its problems without full integration. Unfortunately, full integration has nothing like the popular support required for it to be put to the people to decide - so that means either not doing it (which means the current problems won't get solved), or doing it anyway.
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I missed this gem of a Daily Mail story back in April and only saw it today whilst it did the rounds on FaceSpace.
The Daily Mail, proponent of non-free-movement after Brexit is horrified to find that Brexit means no free movement. Daily Mail, take some ibuprofen before clicking.
The Daily Mail, proponent of non-free-movement after Brexit is horrified to find that Brexit means no free movement. Daily Mail, take some ibuprofen before clicking.
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This is probably too political for the Funny Images thread...
UKMikey
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I haven't seen much of that (yet), however that might be partly because any Google news search I do from now on includes the keywords '-mail' and '-express'.
I do hope that the EU are starting to realise that a no deal Brexit is a worst-case scenario for all involved, and, far from dissuading other countries to leave, it would set a precedent by which the EU has shown itself to be powerless to stop a non-Eurozone country from leaving. This is the reality, and the sooner they face it the better - the EU need to make the EU worth staying in, as opposed to threatening harsh consequences for daring to contemplate leaving, even if leaving doesn't make a great deal of sense.
In any case, it is nowhere near as simple for a Eurozone member to leave the EU, so there is very little chance of Brexit (under any circumstances) setting a precedent for, say, Italy or Greece anyway, hence I don't think the EU need to play hardball with the UK to 'make an example' of us.
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For those of you still following the slow-motion train wreck that is Brexit, you may have noticed over the weekend that Michel Barnier pretty much killed off Theresa May's Brexit plan. Meanwhile, senior Tories including former Brexit chief negotiator David Davis, former Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson and current Brexit champion Jacob Rees-Mogg have denounced May's plan as 'worse than staying in', 'impossible' and 'a humiliation' - it is highly ironic that they should actually be quite pleased with Barnier's harsh words since he has now made May's 'soft Brexit' a political impossibility.
But, the trouble is that the alternatives are now equally unpleasant - a total reversal (and capitulation to the EU) would see the UK government collapse (at a time where the main opposition is also in total disarray)... IMHO, this could spell disaster as disillusioned Brexit voters move in their millions to a new 'populist' party (cue Nigel Farage, who (un-coincidentally) announced his return to mainstream politics just last week...), or a no-deal Brexit. My money is on the latter - I honestly think that Brexit cannot be stopped, but even if it was to be, a lot of the damage is already done - relations between the EU and the UK are damaged beyond repair; furthermore, it has been made clear that the UK's current relationship with the EU will not last much longer in any case - Brexit is now a matter of 'when' and how, and not 'if'. So, no deal is looking more and more likely by the day, and it is not going to be pleasant for a lot of people in the UK - and on the continent.
The big question is, what will Barnier and the EU have achieved if Britain is essentially forced to walked away without a deal? In many respects the EU cannot allow that to happen - the UK will take a massive hit but it will, slowly, recover. But what about the EU - how will it cope with increasingly populist and belligerent governments across the continent when it cannot even agree to an orderly exit deal with the first country that decides to leave? The trouble is that the EU is not designed to allow countries to leave - but reality has overtaken theory. A botched Brexit will really hurt the UK, but it is also exposing the fact that the EU currently has no means to allow a member state to leave of its own accord - which is a mighty problem, because as the UK is about to show, a member state that votes itself out cannot be stopped.
But, the trouble is that the alternatives are now equally unpleasant - a total reversal (and capitulation to the EU) would see the UK government collapse (at a time where the main opposition is also in total disarray)... IMHO, this could spell disaster as disillusioned Brexit voters move in their millions to a new 'populist' party (cue Nigel Farage, who (un-coincidentally) announced his return to mainstream politics just last week...), or a no-deal Brexit. My money is on the latter - I honestly think that Brexit cannot be stopped, but even if it was to be, a lot of the damage is already done - relations between the EU and the UK are damaged beyond repair; furthermore, it has been made clear that the UK's current relationship with the EU will not last much longer in any case - Brexit is now a matter of 'when' and how, and not 'if'. So, no deal is looking more and more likely by the day, and it is not going to be pleasant for a lot of people in the UK - and on the continent.
The big question is, what will Barnier and the EU have achieved if Britain is essentially forced to walked away without a deal? In many respects the EU cannot allow that to happen - the UK will take a massive hit but it will, slowly, recover. But what about the EU - how will it cope with increasingly populist and belligerent governments across the continent when it cannot even agree to an orderly exit deal with the first country that decides to leave? The trouble is that the EU is not designed to allow countries to leave - but reality has overtaken theory. A botched Brexit will really hurt the UK, but it is also exposing the fact that the EU currently has no means to allow a member state to leave of its own accord - which is a mighty problem, because as the UK is about to show, a member state that votes itself out cannot be stopped.
Sounds good to me!
UKMikey
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We are living in interesting times.
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Yes, and no. Ask yourself who is left to step into the power vacuum that would be created? The Lib Dems are struggling to find a meaningful place post Clegg/Farron, the arch-nemesis of Sherlock Holmes (Rees-Mogg) is waiting to step smartly up to the front and the Labour party can't even decide if it stands for itself. My money's on Rees-Mogg, sadly. An additional possibility (as noted by @Touring Mars) is that Farage will create a new party to reclaim the righter-most ground that UKIP lost to the Conservatives over the last few years.
If political armageddon does happen, it (in my opinion) will split the Tories into what was basically UKIP a few years ago that’ll become an nice place for all the nasty racists to find political exile, and a Conservative party that is actually possibly ‘good’.
Labour, will, implode. Jezza is a moron and is only tolerated because he has support of his members, if/when Dave Milliband steps up, imo he’ll be elected leader and very possibly PM.
Lib Dem’s... yes they’ll still be around
Personally **** the political class in this country. It’s rotten and ****. It can and should be burnt to the ground and start over. If Brexit achieves that then at least it won’t have all been for pointless ruin.
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I think it is a case of be careful what you wish for - the government collapsing would not halt Brexit. Ironically, officially calling a halt to Brexit is only likely to make matters worse... the day when Brexit could have been halted more easily has long since passed... a call to halt Brexit now would force a General Election and could see a resurgent UKIP (or a newly forged right-wing 'populist' coalition) take power. But even if that is unlikely, it could merely pave the way for an even more Euroskeptic Tory party to take power, perhaps with the support of a populist coalition. Even a Labour landslide would not halt Brexit now.
As has been said in the past, what the majority of UK people (and MPs) want - a soft Brexit - is not possible. It has been utterly rejected by the EU at every opportunity, and the EU will never accept it. Therefore staying in or a complete break with the EU are the only credible options left, but both options are politically very difficult, if not impossible, to win full support for. As such, it is looking more and more likely that the outcome will be the closest thing possible to the current 'default' option, which is to crash out of the EU without a deal, as there is no political mechanism, agreement or will within the UK or, crucially, within the EU27 to stop it - Brexit could only be reversed by universal agreement to restore the status quo prior to the referendum, and that isn't going to happen.
If the UK announced a second referendum was to be held before March 29th, and the British people voted to reverse Brexit, then it would, in effect, be folding its hand and be forced to accept whatever new terms the EU27 agreed to between them - and that could include anything from removing Britain's rebate to demanding that the UK's current opt-outs (on the Euro, Schengen etc.) are also withdrawn. Of course, if that were made clear before the vote, the chances of a win for Remain would be practically nil... so it would probably come as a nasty surprise after the vote was held. Of course, this would be cited by Brexiters as enough of a reason to call another referendum!
If the vote happened after March 29th, then the UK crashes out by default and would have to apply to rejoin the EU, and that would be 100% guaranteed to involve losing every opt-out (and the rebate), plus a commitment to ever closer union - something that I don't think will ever win a popularity contest in the UK... in other words, once we're out, we're out for good. The trouble is, though, that the status quo - i.e. our current deal with the EU, is already gone, even if we do manage to reverse Brexit, because, crucially, Article 50 can only be reversed by agreement of the EU, who can pretty much demand whatever they like from us in order to allow us to stay in.
Mine too.
I'm still shocked that Ed Miliband beat him to become Labour leader - Sadly, Labour has been a train-wreck ever since.
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I was working on the basis of halting brexit would cause the government to collapse, as per your post.
Indeed, though who could have ever imagined the insane state that Labour would find its self embroiled in?
