Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[TenEightyOne]

Funnily enough I can't find any verification either. I heard it on the BBC in context to the difference between the Scottish and EU Referendums, but nothing on the gov.uk site.

The difference they may have referred to was that the Scottish Parliament had to be granted the legal power to call a referendum by their Westminster overlords.

 

[Tired Tyres]

The difference they may have referred to was that the Scottish Parliament had to be granted the legal power to call a referendum by their Westminster overlords.

Nope. It was about how the EU referendum was discretionary - as the Government is sovereign and can't be compelled by the result UNLIKE the Scottish referendum which was legally binding. No evidence found though so can't be right. There'd be reference to it. Somewhere.

 

[EamerRed]

This might be where I read it:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201314/ldselect/ldconst/188/18804.htm

"the UK Government acknowledged the right of the Scottish Government to hold such a referendum and, in the "Edinburgh agreement" of October 2012, agreed to accept as binding the result of a referendum held before the end of 2014."

 

[baldgye]

This might be where I read it:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201314/ldselect/ldconst/188/18804.htm

"the UK Government acknowledged the right of the Scottish Government to hold such a referendum and, in the "Edinburgh agreement" of October 2012, agreed to accept as binding the result of a referendum held before the end of 2014."

Seems this whole thing is a grey area;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement_(2012)

Whether the document was legally binding in theory is a matter of academic discussion.

https://www.scottishconstitutionalf...-Legal-Status-of-the-Edinburgh-Agreement.aspx

 

[Outspacer]

I found an article saying:

Ms Sturgeon has said there are various options open to Scotland but she is intent on pursuing a legally-binding referendum, similar to what was held in 2014.

One option could be to hold a “consultative referendum,” which would not be authorised by the British parliament, making it advisory rather than binding.

All very confusing, but I wonder if the "legally-binding" part could refer to the UK gov effectively giving the Scottish gov the power to act on the result of the referendum, rather than the referendum itself being binding? Although the Scottish gov may have had the power to make it legally-binding if they wanted, I couldn't spot a clause saying so in the Scottish Independence Referendum Act (but it's huge and I only flicked through it).

 

[baldgye]

I guess the only meaningful conclusion we can draw (given that we are not political legal experts) is that the Brexit referendum was not legally binding, on the whole referendum’s are advisory, with one clear exception and one disputed exception.

 

[Dotini]

I guess the only meaningful conclusion we can draw (given that we are not political legal experts) is that the Brexit referendum was not legally binding, on the whole referendum’s are advisory, with one clear exception and one disputed exception.

IMO, the best form of government would be a benevolent despot, King or dictator. There would be no votes or referendums. But I do concede the problem comes when the benevolent despot dies and...who comes next?

Given the democracy with its inherent problem of tyranny, we get the problem of referendums, a pure and direct vote of the people. Naturally we should try to avoid giving the people as little say as possible, and let the elite do the real ruling.

Over there on your island, you have a mashup of medievalism and law, so I do not know how much referendums have legal status. Here in the states, they generally do.

 

[Robin]

The referendum may not be legally binding but leaving the EU is very much now written into law so we either leave on the 29th of March or postpone it. Don't know how the government is going to work that one out!

 

[baldgye]

IMO, the best form of government would be a benevolent despot, King or dictator. There would be no votes or referendums. But I do concede the problem comes when the benevolent despot dies and...who comes next?

Given the democracy with its inherent problem of tyranny, we get the problem of referendums, a pure and direct vote of the people. Naturally we should try to avoid giving the people as little say as possible, and let the elite do the real ruling.

Over there on your island, you have a mashup of medievalism and law, so I do not know how much referendums have legal status. Here in the states, they generally do.

...what?

 

[UKMikey]

...what?

The medievalism must be where all the white knighting is coming from. I think someone still thinks the Queen is in charge of our government.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Bloody Nords, coming over here and understanding what's going on.

 

[Touring Mars]

The ECJ has ruled that the UK can revoke Article 50 unilaterally.

With May's deal dead on arrival, no Commons support for No Deal, no public support for Norway Plus, and no longer any threat posed by scrapping the whole thing, I'd say it was Game Over for Brexit - at least for now...

 

[baldgye]

The ECJ has ruled that the UK can revoke Article 50 unilaterally.

With May's deal dead on arrival, no Commons support for No Deal, no public support for Norway Plus, and no longer any threat posed by scrapping the whole thing, I'd say it was Game Over for Brexit - at least for now...

Fingers crossed.

Edit;

 

[Liquid]

Second referendum without Remain being an option.

Just you wait.

 

[baldgye]

Second referendum without Remain being an option.

Just you wait.

Wasn't it only a week or so ago when May said there would be no second referendum? Now there might be one, without a remain option...

 

[Liquid]

Wasn't it only a week or so ago when May said there would be no second referendum? Now there might be one, without a remain option...

Just seems to be the only way left to force Brexit through.

Now, there's no way to avoid an Edmonds gameshow reference (groan) but you can just see it. A final referendum with two options; Deal or No Deal. Remain

As much as it is an option, and one I would like, I just don't believe either a Conservative or a Labour government would rescind the notice of withdrawal. Conviction is one thing but embarrassment and a tail between the legs is extremely strong in politics.

 

[baldgye]

Just seems to be the only way left to force Brexit through.

Now, there's no way to avoid an Edmonds gameshow reference (groan) but you can just see it. A final referendum with two options; Deal or No Deal. Remain

As much as it is an option, and one I would like, I just don't believe either a Conservative or a Labour government would rescind the notice of withdrawal. Conviction is one thing but embarrassment and a tail between the legs is extremely strong in politics.

I'd be surprised if we get a referendum before a snap GE anyway... and then who knows!

I think, as it stands a cancelling of Brexit (marketed as postponing) could be done as; The EU REFUSE! To get on board and have BLOCKED OUR SOVEREIGNTY!!!! as a political position before any new vote is announced (be it GE or otherwise)

 

[Liquid]

The current government is doing a grand job at stifling parliament and blocking sovereignty without the EUSSR sticking its sickle in.

 

[Touring Mars]

The current government is doing a grand job at stifling parliament and blocking sovereignty without the EUSSR sticking its sickle in.

I disagree - Parliament is doing a rather good job of exerting its sovereign power over a clueless government.

 

[baldgye]

May to Delay Key Vote on Brexit Deal to Avoid Huge Defeat, Source Says

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/...o-avoid-huge-defeat?__twitter_impression=true

“You can’t loose if you don’t play”

 

[Robin]

Cancelling a parlimentary vote she can't win, I didn't realise this was the USSKR.

She better be ready for the storm (from all sorts of sides) thats going to follow. Starting to look like her plan all along was to lead this to stopping Brexit, she just did it in a very creative way knowing full well that if she made an utter balls of it the country would be left with no option.

 

[baldgye]

from all sorts of sides

Let’s be realistic, you mean from within her own party

Jezza couldn’t give anyone a hard time

 

[Robin]

Let’s be realistic, you mean from within her own party

Jezza couldn’t give anyone a hard time

I meant sides of the public but yeah, Conservatives will be going nuts at each other!

 

[Touring Mars]

In reality, there is only one referendum that will have any real meaning now: a straight choice between Remain or No Deal.

A deal, I fear, is now no longer possible... if it ever was. The upshot is fairly simple: There is no deal that is acceptable to the EU that the UK will accept, and there is no deal that is acceptable to the UK that the EU will accept, thus leaving the EU will likely only be possible by walking away with no deal at all.

This stark choice was patently not what the first referendum was about - indeed, the government remain convinced that Brexit can still be negotiated... methinks Theresa May is about to find out the hard way that it can't.

I personally would be in favour of a stark choice referendum, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, my opposition to a People's Vote/Second Referendum was largely due to the uncertainly over revoking Article 50... that has now (finally) been resolved (though one wonders why it took so long), but also because (ironically) it is now also clear that 'Deal' is pretty much off the table now too... the EU simply cannot be negotiated with. That makes a second vote pretty straightforward and, IMHO, fair - I reckon the first vote has been respected insofar as it gave the UK and EU an opportunity to negotiate a deal - they've produced a deal and, surprise surprise, it's a crock. With that being the case, I reckon it is now time to decide whether to stay in or leave on WTO terms. I reckon that would be a fair vote.

 

[Robin]

When people voted leave the vast majority voted with no expectation of a deal, they in essence already voiced their favour for a no deal Brexit. Good if we can get one, but no expectations. The question option wasn't leave the European union and negotiate a new partnership nor was it a referendum on negotiating with the EU. In my opinion it's now a choice between May's terrible deal or no deal, that's it.

 

[baldgye]

I wish the people who voted to leave where present in this thread, I'd be curious their opinion on how this whole thing is going. It's kinda going how I'd expected it to go, though I never expected May to still be in power this long

 

[Lizard]

I wish the people who voted to leave where present in this thread, I'd be curious their opinion on how this whole thing is going. It's kinda going how I'd expected it to go, though I never expected May to still be in power this long

My mum voted leave and she said she regrets doing so now.

 

[baldgye]

My mum voted leave and she said she regrets doing so now.

Mine did too, but she (last time I checked) doesn't regret it at all... but then she also has no understanding of how the EU works...

 

[Touring Mars]

When people voted leave the vast majority voted with no expectation of a deal

This is why a second referendum on the basis on No Deal v Remain would be fair IMO - the Remain position hasn't changed at all, but the Leave camp (and vote) is bitterly split between those who want a good deal, those who want to avoid a bad deal, and those who want to walk away from the whole deal. Unfortunately for the 'good deal/avoid a bad deal' crowd, they are about to find out that they've backed a loser - the question is, how would they vote if they had another choice, this time between No Deal or changing their minds about the whole thing, prefering to wait for a more opportune time to exit the EU.

A second referendum on the basis of No Deal v Remain would answer that question unequivocally, and settle the debate once and for all. I believe that the majority (may be as high as 75%) of Leave voters don't care how we leave, but a significant proportion would probably change their minds - some may be so infuriated with the EU that they now no longer care and will vote for No Deal just to get us out once and for all, but a good number would probably change their minds in favour of Remain. Assuming Remain voters all voted to remain again, it would only require 3.7% of all Leave voters to switch for Remain to win a second referendum. I would bet my mortgage on Remain winning in those circumstances.

-

This is class 👍

Andy Serkis as Theresa May...

 

[Robin]

This is why a second referendum on the basis on No Deal v Remain would be fair IMO...

Wouldn't May's Deal vs No Deal be the correct second referendum if there was one?

Why should Remain be on the ballot when the country voted to leave? It's now down you those that voted to leave with the expectation of a deal and those who voted to leave without one.