Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[TenEightyOne]

That's what I said! Ask English, Irish, Welsh, European etc people living in Scotland whether they wish to uptake citizenship (identify as Scottish) in an independent Scotland and the voting rights that comes with it. So why the outrage from you then?

I think you're misusing "identify". Somebody can be a Dutch national and identify as German, or a British national and identify as French. "Identify" is a state of mind, not a state of citizenship.

That's why I took issue with "you take issue with people in Scotland being asked whether they identify as Scottish and therefore want to remain in Scotland as an independent nation?" because you implied that identification as Scottish (an unquantifiable feeling) was a prerequisite for their voting. I identify as British and as European in equal measure, then some days I feel particularly Yorkshire, occasionally I'll see a fine nag for sale and the Irish blood comes surging through me in handfuls of grubby fivers. As it is I'm losing my voting rights as a European and losing the rights of free movement and free working location that I've enjoyed in the past.

 

[Robin]

In this thread:
Robin "Those are the rules, this is how it is"
Everyone "Those rules aren't very fair, this is how I think the rules should be changed to make the system better"
Robin "But those are the rules, that's how it is"
Everyone "We had a vote on what the rules should be for one thing, why not also let the people have a say in the rules of that vote?"
Robin "Because those are the rules"

Then you fundamentally don't agree with government rule. They cannot put forward every single law and suggestion to public consolation. Are you implying we should have had 10 votes on how the referendum should be carried out (who should vote etc) before carrying it out, and then 10 after to assess how we should proceed? How on earth would that work? Also there are plenty who think it is very much fair otherwise there would have been some sort of revolution in the last hundred years.

I think you're misusing "identify". Somebody can be a Dutch national and identify as German, or a British national and identify as French. "Identify" is a state of mind, not a state of citizenship.

That's why I took issue with "you take issue with people in Scotland being asked whether they identify as Scottish and therefore want to remain in Scotland as an independent nation?" because you implied that identification as Scottish (an unquantifiable feeling) was a prerequisite for their voting. I identify as British and as European in equal measure, then some days I feel particularly Yorkshire, occasionally I'll see a fine nag for sale and the Irish blood comes surging through me in handfuls of grubby fivers. As it is I'm losing my voting rights as a European and losing the rights of free movement and free working location that I've enjoyed in the past.

Yes I understand the misunderstanding now. I'm not saying Scottish the ethnicity, I'm saying Scottish as in the citizens of Scotland.

 

[gokartman78]

Yes. That's how it's worked since the first þings, the people send their representative to speaker on behalf of the body they constitute as a hundred, wapentake or borough (burgh). The representative should speak on their behalf, no logic about it. Whether or not that works under the whip is a different matter of course.

Absolutely, they are there to do a job, not go against the people who put them there. Actually they campaign on the basis of working for their constituents views so it's really poor form when they decide to go rogue.

Why do you think so many on both sides have managed to get away with voting against their constituents will on numerous brexit issues without suffering too many defeats in the 2017 election? Many Remain MP's in leave areas got re-elected, and the same applies for brexiteers in remain constituents.


https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/every-leave-constituency-with-a-remain-mp/

This list makes it very clear why labour have stayed so far away from fully backing a second referendum, running the risk of losing a lot of seats if they push for it, but...


https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/pro-brexit-mps-represent-remain-constituencies/

How many on this list are worried about losing their seats? Dominic Raab and John Redwood are two rather well known names that jump out from that list as ignoring what their constituents voted for who seem to have very little risk or worry about losing their seats over disagreements with their voters.


Does the result of the referendum in some way allow the second group to ignore constituents and push more weight behind leaving? Is that what separates the two groups in terms of criticisms, as it seems the first group seem to be on the receiving end of it a lot more..

 

[Tired Tyres]

Two things stand out;
1. The Lib Dem’s remembered to vote
2. Labour actually (by enlarge) agree on something!

1. I'm a Lib Dem. My party did something it was supposed to do. I'm getting dizzy and need to sit down.

2. Idea. If Brexit effects the whole EU, why don't we have a new referendum, with the same question as the last one, but we let everyone in the EU vote?

It would fix the eligibility situation.

 

[UKMikey]

I'm impressed with the pun headline in today's Metro regarding "slow Brexit": "STUCK IN THE MUDDLE WITH EU". I'm surprised it took them so long to come up with that one.

 

[baldgye]

So Mogg, despite being very much against May’s deal, seems to have changed his mind!!


...good thing the British public aren’t allowed to change their mind!


Edit:


Mr Mogg wants the U.K. to be a slave state.

 

[Touring Mars]

So Mogg, despite being very much against May’s deal, seems to have changed his mind!!


...good thing the British public aren’t allowed to change their mind!


Edit:


Mr Mogg wants the U.K. to be a slave state.

I think Jacob Rees-Mogg has changed his tune somewhat on May's deal, because it is now becoming apparent that the only viable alternative to May's deal is No Brexit.

JRM has said for some time that No Deal would be better than May's deal, and has made a great fuss over the fact that May's deal has the potential to result in a situation that puts the UK in a worse position (e.g. trapped in the backstop, which is effectively Soft Brexit) than it is in right now... the big issue is that there was seemingly no exit mechanism from the Soft Brexit/backstop, but I think the penny has finally dropped that the chances of this ever happening are really quite low, and that if any form of Brexit is going to happen now, May's deal must be passed.

So, I don't think JRM is 'a liar' as is being suggested in the replies to his comments - nor is he advocating the UK signs up to be a slave state; I do believe he may now be regretting using such phrases and rhetoric so liberally in the past, but to be fair, at the time he said those remarks, those concerns were quite genuine and not completely without merit. Of course, it is easy to score cheap political points by now making it sound like he has completely caved in.

Ken Clarke and the Attorney General have both been saying all along that the ERG's opposition to the backstop has been overblown, and it now looks like they are beginning to accept that - though I suspect that there are probably some other reasons for why the ERG (and JRM in particular) are now sounding more concilliatory on May's deal, and I suspect that will include some legal reassurances over the UK's right to terminate treaties unilaterally if it can be established that the other side are not playing fair... in other words, the ERG look ready to accept May's deal, but probably on the understanding that the UK will force itself out of the backstop eventually, even if the EU never agree to it. Indeed, the EU's own legal reassurances before the second meaningful vote strongly suggest that the backstop is neither intended be or will accidentally turn out to be a trap from which the UK cannot ever escape.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I think Jacob Rees-Mogg has changed his tune somewhat on May's deal, because it is now becoming apparent that the only viable alternative to May's deal is No Brexit.

His company made £130m in profit last year and paid zero tax, in recent months he's moved the headquarters of his investment business to the EU and the Cayman Islands... I'm not sure I like taking lectures from JRM on what's best for Britain.

Just reading that the DUP still won't back May's deal, they'd rather have a long extension. A bit like the one the bomb squad used to use on their UVA vans, I suppose. This is government right now - a sectarian political wing of a terror organisation (of two, in fact, if you consider Sinn Fein's empty seats) holding the government to ransom because May called (and nearly lost) a general election. Between them and Rees-Mogg's ilk it shows what a **** show parliament has become.

In other news... members of the cabinet have been hurriedly arriving at 10DS during the last few minutes, no cabinet meeting was scheduled. Something's afoot, the commentators like to think that May is off to the Cayman islands to look after Rees-Mogg's villa. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Tired Tyres]

General Election. Calling it now.

 

[baldgye]

General Election. Calling it now.

If that happens Corbyn would end up being prime minister... Jesus ****ing Christ

 

[adamp93]

If that happens Corbyn would end up being prime minister... Jesus ****ing Christ

Only if he grows a pair and decides to actually oppose the government.

 

[baldgye]

Only if he grows a pair and decides to actually oppose the government.

Don’t think he’ll have to.
May’s said if another election is called she won’t stand and in the preceding leadership vote the party will implode. Labour don’t even have to have a Brexit plan and they’d win

 

[Tired Tyres]

Only if he grows a pair and decides to actually oppose the government.

He'll only do that if he's the MP.

 

[TenEightyOne]

He'll only do that if he's the MP.

He is an MP.

 

[Famine]

General Election. Calling it now.

I can't actually find it right now (also time), but I've been seeing all week that it's too late to call one now before some event of some kind happens, as there needs to be 25 days' notice for a GE.

 

[Tired Tyres]

He is an MP.

Sorry. Android spell check again. I meant PM.

Although him being an MP is part of the problem anyway.

I can't actually find it right now (also time), but I've been seeing all week that it's too late to call one now before some event of some kind happens, as there needs to be 25 days' notice for a GE.

So? We are supposed to leave at 11AM in three days time. That isn't happening so it's moveable. So the EU can go fish while we have a General Election.

Radio 2. Hotel California. That's Brexit that is.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I can't actually find it right now (also time), but I've been seeing all week that it's too late to call one now before some event of some kind happens, as there needs to be 25 days' notice for a GE.

If a General Election is called then Brexit will be delayed by default - there will be no sitting ministers to inform the EU that we have left as they'll be in purdah. Article 50 doesn't automatically count down to that, the leaving date was separately agreed. On that date the Parliament notifies the EU that it has withdrawn from the EU having waited out the minimum notice period that Article 50 provides.

 

[Famine]

So? We are supposed to leave at 11AM in three days time. That isn't happening so it's moveable. So the EU can go fish while we have a General Election.

If a General Election is called then Brexit will be delayed by default - there will be no sitting ministers to inform the EU that we have left as they'll be in purdah. Article 50 doesn't automatically count down to that, the leaving date was separately agreed. On that date the Parliament notifies the EU that it has withdrawn from the EU having waited out the minimum notice period that Article 50 provides.

I've no idea what the event is, but I've seen it twice today that 12.01am this morning was the deadline and we can't call a GE now before "event" happens.

25 days from today is April 11th. 25 working days from today is May 2nd. No idea what the significance of either is, although I do recall something about a deadline for indicating participation in the EU elections on one of those days.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I've no idea what the event is, but I've seen it twice today that 12.01am this morning was the deadline and we can't call a GE now before "event" happens.

25 days from today is April 11th. 25 working days from today is May 2nd. No idea what the significance of either is, although I do recall something about a deadline for indicating participation in the EU elections on one of those days.

So? We can vote twice in one visit. It has happened before. In fact we could have another referendum at the same time. It would save time.

 

[Famine]

So?

You're really asking the wrong person at this point, as I've said I don't know what the event these commentators are saying we had to get the GE in before. However, I've seen it said a couple of times today that it's now too late to call a GE before this event. I'll see if I can dig it out later.

We can vote twice in one visit.

Quite, but the European elections aren't until late May. The UK - and all member states - has to indicate whether it will participate in those elections by a date in early April (possibly the 11th). I believe that's something we need a Parliament to do.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I've no idea what the event is, but I've seen it twice today that 12.01am this morning was the deadline and we can't call a GE now before "event" happens.

25 days from today is April 11th. 25 working days from today is May 2nd. No idea what the significance of either is, although I do recall something about a deadline for indicating participation in the EU elections on one of those days.

Looks like you're right about the EU elections, but it's also the eve of the Brexit deadline.

April 11

Final date for the UK to take steps to enable European Parliament elections to take place.

April 12

If Mrs May has failed to secure Commons support for her Withdrawal Agreement, this is the final day on which the UK can set out its next steps to the European Council, if it wishes to be granted a longer extension. If it does not do so, the UK would leave the EU without a deal.

 

[Touring Mars]

It's possible that the meeting today was to discuss the possibility of May announcing the date for her resignation as PM, and the resulting procedure for installing a caretaker PM instead of a full-blown leadership election or, better still, a General Election.

As for the UK not being able to exit the EU without a sitting government, think again - it is actually the other way around... we will exit the EU by default unless something else happens to prevent exit... we need a functioning government/parliament to stop Brexit from happening.

edit: 1922 committee meeting is tomorrow...

 

[PzR Slim]

 

[Dotini]

It's possible that the meeting today was to discuss the possibility of May announcing the date for her resignation as PM, and the resulting procedure for installing a caretaker PM instead of a full-blown leadership election or, better still, a General Election.

As for the UK not being able to exit the EU without a sitting government, think again - it is actually the other way around... we will exit the EU by default unless something else happens to prevent exit... we need a functioning government/parliament to stop Brexit from happening.

edit: 1922 committee meeting is tomorrow...

I think your entire establishment would prefer to hide in a closet looking for a time machine in lieu of facing reality.

 

[Liquid]

But if you think Brexit is an omnishambles, then just imagine how much harder it would be if we were also trying to negotiate our way into an even larger political union at the same time.

I have been favour of an independent tropical Wales before Brexit happened. I accept that readmission to the European Union comes with conditions different to those the United Kingdom has enjoyed since 1973 and 1992.

However on a national basis Wales lags far, far behind Scotland in terms of being able to secure such a vote.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I've decided that because the EU has passed article 13 we should definitely leave the EU now. If not nationally then I want Yorkshire independence.

 

[baldgye]

However on a national basis Wales lags far, far behind Scotland in terms of being able to secure such a vote.

Isn’t that because Wales was conquered and Scotland bailed out?*

*I’m not a historian

 

[baldgye]

I've decided that because the EU has passed article 13 we should definitely leave the EU now. If not nationally then I want Yorkshire independence.

York****-I mean Yorkshirexit


Apologies for double post, that joke got me dizzy with excitement

 

[Tired Tyres]

York****-I mean Yorkshirexit


Apologies for double post, that joke got me dizzy with excitement

It's no joke. I want a West Yorkshire independence vote. Make a brexit abbreviation out of that.

 

[Touring Mars]

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the answer is simple(s) and keeps almost everyone happy...

Spoiler

English independence from the UK