Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[PocketZeven]

I haven't learnt that and I'm not sure a lot of other people see it that way either. It's too easy to extend that thinking to local or General elections, for example, and that's a mainstay of any semblance of democratic process.

You might have not, but I am sure that the UK and other countries wont put up important decisions like brexit to a referendum any time soon.

 

[Dotini]

The one important thing people have learned from the Brexit Vote, is that it is a good example of how binding referendums are a bad idea.

Yes. Vestiges of primitive direct democracy also persist in the US at the state and local level in the forms of initiative, referendum and recall. These potent and dangerous anachronisms scare the hell out of professional politicians, lawyers and lobbyists, as they can upset carefully planned revenue and spending streams. The truest and greatest danger of democracy will always be the tyranny (or stupidity) of the majority. Holding a referendum on existential questions is like giving shotguns to the monkeys.

 

[Danoff]

Yes. Vestiges of primitive direct democracy also persist in the US at the state and local level in the forms of initiative, referendum and recall. These potent and dangerous anachronisms scare the hell out of professional politicians, lawyers and lobbyists, as they can upset carefully planned revenue and spending streams. The truest and greatest danger of democracy will always be the tyranny (or stupidity) of the majority. Holding a referendum on existential questions is like giving shotguns to the monkeys.

Such a high view of individuals you have... shotguns to monkeys. My goodness. Could possibly have a lower opinion of your fellow man?

Direct democracy without limitations is a recipe for tyranny of the majority. But democracy as a concept, within the limitation of human rights, is not tyranny. I don't have a problem with government via representatives, I even think it has a valid place in certain circumstances. But in instances where people can easily understand the question at hand? You're saying that they need to be held against their will for their own sake... which is a such a prevailing theme for you, but which is fundamentally disrespectful.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yes. Vestiges of primitive direct democracy also persist in the US at the state and local level in the forms of initiative, referendum and recall. These potent and dangerous anachronisms scare the hell out of professional politicians, lawyers and lobbyists, as they can upset carefully planned revenue and spending streams. The truest and greatest danger of democracy will always be the tyranny (or stupidity) of the majority. Holding a referendum on existential questions is like giving shotguns to the monkeys.

Funny how Switzerland isn't full of monkeys running around with shotguns then.

 

[Dotini]

Funny how Switzerland isn't full of monkeys running around with shotguns then.

IMHO Switzerland, unlike the US or UK, is a very small, well-educated relatively homogenous and tight knit society which can and does maintain a more direct democracy. And I do believe most every household is armed and trained in rifle. But I've never been there so you may know vastly more about this than I do. "Monkeys with shotguns" is the title of a pamphlet my cousin Karl is writing. Use of simile and metaphor I concede can be hazardous in a forum.

 

[Touring Mars]

The UK Parliament has voted in favour of the EU Withdrawal Agreement as it stands for the first time...

For 329 - Against 299

There now follows a second vote on the Government's proposed timeline (the 'Programme Motion'), which could still put a spanner in the works.

The Government want the motion passed in order to attempt to pass all the necessary legislation before the 31st October such that the UK leaves the EU on that date... but there are some who may be in favour of the Withdrawal Agreement but who want more time to study the detail of the Bill and to propose changes.

Result of the Programme Motion vote:

For 308 - Against 322

This means that the House has rejected the Government's timeline which makes it very unlikely that the UK can leave the EU on the 31st October, and could pave the way for the Government to pull the entire Bill and pave the way for a General Election (and, very possibly, a long delay to Brexit of several months)

-

Boris Johnson has stated that the Withdrawal Bill will now be 'paused', while Jeremy Corbyn (the leader of the opposition) has offered to 'work with' Johnson on a modified timeline (i.e. to move the date of Brexit to some unspecified time in the future).

The BIG problem with that offer is that, as things stand, the EU have not granted an extension beyond the end of October yet, so how can the Government agree to a timetable that goes beyond that date before it has even been allowed by the EU?!

 

[TenEightyOne]

very unlikely that the UK can leave the EU on the 31st October

Not if there's no offer of an extension or if the PM decides he isn't going to accept the offer. From his PoO after the 2nd vote it sounded to me like we leave on 31st October with No Deal and he blames everybody but himself.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Seems like the EU is open to extensions.

 

[PocketZeven]

Yes. Vestiges of primitive direct democracy also persist in the US at the state and local level in the forms of initiative, referendum and recall. These potent and dangerous anachronisms scare the hell out of professional politicians, lawyers and lobbyists, as they can upset carefully planned revenue and spending streams. The truest and greatest danger of democracy will always be the tyranny (or stupidity) of the majority. Holding a referendum on existential questions is like giving shotguns to the monkeys.

Not the point I was making. The problem I see isn’t the “tyranny of the majority”. Which is a concept I have difficulty to grasp. The problem I am implying is the ignorance of the masses.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The problem I am implying is the ignorance of the masses.

So you don't allow any elections at all?

 

[Danoff]

The problem I see isn’t the “tyranny of the majority”. Which is a concept I have difficulty to grasp.

See Nazi Germany or the pre-Civil War US. Also keep in mind that in governments without preservation of rights, the majority can vote in a dictator. One might even say that the US is flirting with that today.

 

[PocketZeven]

See Nazi Germany or the pre-Civil War US. Also keep in mind that in governments without preservation of rights, the majority can vote in a dictator. One might even say that the US is flirting with that today.

As a european I dont see it as "tyranny of the majority". It was ignorance of the masses. One of he differences is the majority of the people in retrospect regretted their vote. They were misled and uninformed.

So you don't allow any elections at all?

How do you conclude I am against elections from that quote?

 

[Danoff]

As a european I dont see it as "tyranny of the majority". It was ignorance of the masses.

How do you distinguish those concepts... I'm curious.

 

[TenEightyOne]

As a european I dont see it as "tyranny of the majority". It was ignorance of the masses.

What does your being European have to do with forming that opinion? It makes no sense.

One of he differences is the majority of the people in retrospect regretted their vote.

This is a peculiar case where the result of the referendum has taken so long to implement that we've been treated to along discussions of people's views. You can't say that people actually regret their vote any more or less in this instance than in any other instance.

How do you conclude I am against elections from that quote?

Elections are no different from referenda in form, they constitute a democratic polling of opinion. You are clear that

binding referendums are a bad idea.

 

[PocketZeven]

How do you distinguish those concepts... I'm curious.

I dont really understand the concept of tyranny of the majority. Could you explain?

Ignorance of the mass, would boil down to uninformed people making mis-or uninformed choices either out of emotion or because of ignorance.

What does your being European have to do with forming that opinion? It makes no sense.



This is a peculiar case where the result of the referendum has taken so long to implement that we've been treated to along discussions of people's views. You can't say that people actually regret their vote any more or less in this instance than in any other instance.



Elections are no different from referenda in form, they constitute a democratic polling of opinion. You are clear that

Sorry I was answering directly concerning Nazi Germany. Obviously the history of Nazi Germany is covered much more in detail in european schools then the US.

A referendum in its binding form is much different then electing an representative. Saying both are one of the same is kind of ignorant. Especially if you conclude that if one is against referenda, one is also against elections. Which does not make sense to me.


edit: wrong wordchoice

 

[Famine]

Speaking of elections...

 

[baldgye]

lol...

 

[TenEightyOne]

A referendum in its binding form is much different then electing an representative. Saying both are one of the same is kind of ignorant

Ultimately both referenda and elections are about the people making legislative choices in their constituency, state or country. You said that a lesson from Brexit was that people were too ignorant to be trusted with referenda. It automatically follows that if people are too stupid to vote for single, specific issues then they're too stupid to vote for manifestos that cover multiple issues.

Ignorance of the mass, would boil down to uninformed people making mis-or uninformed choices either out of emotion or because of ignorance.

And you continue with that thought. You've clearly stated a view that people can't be trusted with referenda, why can they be trusted with elections?

 

[Danoff]

I dont really understand the concept of tyranny of the majority. Could you explain?

It is the ability of the majority in a democracy to "pick on" the minority legally. Such as, for example, Nazi Germany and pre-Civil War USA. It does not matter why... misled, misinformed, evil, selfish... none of that changes whether it is tyranny of the majority. It is abuse of the minority at the hands of the majority via democracy, that's the concept.

 

[PocketZeven]

It is the ability of the majority in a democracy to "pick on" the minority legally. Such as, for example, Nazi Germany and pre-Civil War USA. It does not matter why... misled, misinformed, evil, selfish... none of that changes whether it is tyranny of the majority. It is abuse of the minority at the hands of the majority via democracy, that's the concept.

Ah ok. It does puts the emphasis on the majority being guilty of being tyrannical. And it does kind of sounds like it was calculated, informed and on purpose.

 

[Hun200kmh]

For a bit of fun … just got sent this:

 

[PzR Slim]

 

[UKMikey]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-50202060

 

[baldgye]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-50202060

oH pLeaSe, BOth sIdEs ARe as bAd As eAcH otHEr!

 

[MatskiMonk]

Brextension.. Flextension...

Surely there's a ditch somewhere round here with BoJo's name on it.

 

[baldgye]

Brextension.. Flextension...

Surely there's a ditch somewhere round here with BoJo's name on it.

Yeah, it’s next to the one that’s being dug for the NHS

 

[Roo]

Brextension.. Flextension...

...nextension, when we ask for another one...

 

[PeterJB]

If we don't get an election out of this then this extension will accomplish absolutely nothing.

 

[PeterJB]

If we don't get an election out of this then this extension will accomplish absolutely nothing.

Aaaand it's been voted down.

 

[PocketZeven]

If we don't get an election out of this then this extension will accomplish absolutely nothing.

Aaaand it's been voted down.