Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

Deal or No Deal?

  • Voted Leave - May's Deal

  • Voted Leave - No Deal

  • Voted Leave - Second Referendum

  • Did not vote/abstained - May's Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - No Deal

  • Did not vote/abstained - Second Referendum

  • Voted Remain - May's Deal

  • Voted Remain - No Deal

  • Voted Remain - Second Referendum


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Hannan is the worst kind of Brexiteer - a genuine 'cake-ist' who firmly believed that the UK could quit the EU but could stay in the Single Market on terms dictated by the UK. Wrong.

Trading with the EU requires the UK to adhere to EU law, standards etc. irrespective of whether the UK is an EU member state or not. However, Hannan and his ilk have consistently pushed the false narrative that leaving the EU will "free" the UK from what they viewed as 'unnecessary bureaucracy', and hence liberalise trade in general. It hasn't.

Unfortunately, the opposite is true... leaving the EU but remaining hugely dependent on EU trade has left the UK facing horrendous bureaucracy that Single Market membership was designed to remove. That this is coming as something of a shock to these people indicates that they are either incomprehensibly thick or unforgivably naive.
 
That's the sort of person who needs to be sent out into the Atlantic in a dingy with a remote controlled plug in the bottom.

Useless ****ers.
 


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Financial Times
As he battled to save his job this month, Boris Johnson warned his MPs not to get into “some hellish, Groundhog Day debate about the merits of belonging to the single market”. Brexit, he warned his mutinous party in a sweaty House of Commons meeting room, was settled.

Later that day, Johnson limped to victory in a confidence vote, but only after 41 per cent of his MPs had voted to oust him from Downing Street. He is safe for now but the defining project of his premiership — Brexit — still hangs like a cloud over Britain’s fragile economy.

Johnson may not want his party “relitigating” Brexit but neither does Sir Keir Starmer, leader of the opposition Labour party, around a third of whose supporters voted Leave in the 2016 referendum. Nor does Andrew Bailey, governor of the Bank of England. Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, would rather talk about something else. Brexit has become the great British taboo.

But as the sixth anniversary of the UK’s vote to leave the EU approaches, economists are starting to quantify the damage caused by the erection of trade barriers with its biggest market, separating the “Brexit effect” from the damage caused by the Covid-19 pandemic. They conclude that the damage is real and it is not over yet.

The UK is lagging behind the rest of the G7 in terms of trade recovery after the pandemic; business investment, seen by Johnson and Sunak as the panacea to a poor growth rate, trails other industrialised countries, in spite of lavish Treasury tax breaks to try to drive it up. Next year, according to the OECD think-tank, the UK will have the lowest growth in the G20, apart from sanctioned Russia.

The Office for Budget Responsibility, the official British forecaster, has seen no reason to change its prediction, first made in March 2020, that Brexit would ultimately reduce productivity and UK gross domestic product by 4 per cent compared with a world where the country remained inside the EU. It says that a little over half of that damage has yet to occur.

That level of decline, worth about £100bn a year in lost output, would result in lost revenues for the Treasury of roughly £40bn a year. That is £40bn that might have been available to the beleaguered Johnson for the radical tax cuts demanded by the Tory right — the equivalent of 6p off the 20p in the pound basic rate of income tax.

Despite these sobering figures, Johnson’s complaints about the prospect of “relitigating” Brexit was exaggerated, intended to portray himself as the victim of a putative plot by pro-Remain MPs. In fact, British politicians — and the wider country — are still traumatised by the bitter Brexit saga, and deeply unwilling to revisit it.

Still, this month has seen the first stirrings of a debate that until now has been buried as the evidence of Brexit-induced economic self-harm starts to pile up. Few are talking about reversing Brexit altogether, but another question is being asked: should the UK start to explore with Brussels ways of softening its edges?

Downing Street insisted this week it was “too early to pass judgment” on whether Brexit was having a negative impact on the economy, which could be heading into a recession. “The opportunities Brexit provides will be a boon to the UK economy in the long run,” Johnson’s spokesman said.

Both Johnson and Sunak insist that it is hard at this stage to separate Brexit’s economic impact from the shock of Covid. In the meantime, the prime minister promotes the “benefits of Brexit”, such as new trade agreements with Australia and New Zealand and the freedom for the UK to set its own rules.

Sunak has promised a reform of rules in the City of London, including reforming the EU’s Solvency II rules to allow insurers to spend more money on infrastructure projects. He has announced eight new freeports with special tax privileges.

But economists have not yet been able to find any significant positive impacts of these policies. Some, including Johnson’s patriotic promise to put a “crown stamp” on pint glasses in pubs and to allow traders to sell their wares in pounds and ounces, are primarily symbolic.

Critics of government Brexit policy are routinely derided. Suella Braverman, attorney-general, last week accused the ITV presenter Robert Peston of “Remainiac make-believe” after he challenged her over the government’s unilateral plan to rip up the Brexit treaty relating to Northern Ireland. Braverman claimed the so-called Northern Ireland protocol had left the region “lagging behind the rest of the UK”. In fact, Northern Ireland (the only area of the UK to remain in the EU’s single market for goods) is the best performing part of the country, apart from London.

When Bailey appeared before the House of Commons treasury committee in mid May, the BoE governor acknowledged that his predecessor Mark Carney had made himself “unpopular” for saying Brexit would have a negative effect on trade, but that the bank held to that view.

Kevin Hollinrake, a Tory member of the committee, says Bailey was trying to avoid becoming a political target and was “deliberately avoiding” talking about Brexit. “It’s a singular issue for the UK,” the MP says. “We have changed our immigration rules. It’s about non-tariff barriers. You’ve got to be willing to look at what’s happening on the ground.”

While some gloomy predictions have failed to materialise, such as former chancellor George Osborne’s 2016 warning of a recession immediately after a Leave vote, there is growing evidence that Brexit is causing more lasting damage to UK economic prospects.

Ministers are becoming more reluctant to proclaim the economic upsides of Brexit. Kwasi Kwarteng, business secretary, was asked last week at the FT Global Boardroom to list some Brexit benefits. He focused on the UK’s ability to respond swiftly to Russian aggression in Ukraine — “it has substantial benefits particularly in international policy” — rather than on business. Sunak’s allies say the chancellor’s approach is to “show, not tell” on Brexit, pushing through City regulatory reforms rather than giving boosterish speeches on its economic merits.

The first and most obvious economic blow delivered by Brexit came when sterling fell almost 10 per cent after the referendum in June 2016, against currencies that match the UK’s pattern of imports. It did not recover. This sharp depreciation was not followed by a boom in exports as UK goods and services became cheaper on global markets, but it did raise the price of imports and pushed up inflation.

By June 2018, a team of academic economists at the Centre for Economic Policy Research calculated that there had been a Brexit inflation effect, raising consumer prices by 2.9 per cent, with no corresponding increase in wages.

Some households, such as those relying on state pensions, were compensated in higher benefits, but the CEPR team found no overall offset with higher incomes. “The Brexit vote delivered a swift negative shock to UK living standards,” they wrote.

While the UK was still in the EU and during the Brexit “transition phase”, there were no significant effects on trade flows. But this has changed since stricter border controls were introduced at the start of 2021, imposing no tariffs, but significant checks and controls at the formerly frictionless border.

Economists have used this point in time to contrast how the UK’s trade performance compares with those of other countries before and after the TCA’s imposition. The results have been increasingly ugly, especially for small companies trading with Europe.

Red tape caused a “steep decline” in the number of trading relationships after January 2021, according to a study by the Centre for Economic Performance at the London School of Economics. The number of buyer-seller relationships fell by almost one-third, it found.

The same group found food prices had risen as a result of Brexit. Comparing the prices of imported food such as pork, tomatoes and jam, which predominantly came from the EU, with those that came from further afield such as tuna and pineapples, it found a substantial Brexit effect. “Brexit increased average food prices by about 6 per cent over 2020 and 2021,” according to the research.

Summing up the effects on trade in which imports from the EU have fallen while exports have not risen, Adam Posen, head of the Peterson Institute of International Economics, says “everybody else sees a recovery in trade following Covid and the UK sits flat”.

The third visible effect of Brexit on the UK economy has been in discouraging business investment. In the first quarter of 2022, real business investment was 9.4 per cent lower than in the second quarter of 2016. That fall was mostly due to Covid, but it had flatlined since the referendum, ending a period of growth since 2010 and falling well short of the performance of other G7 countries.

Weak investment is a particular worry for Sunak, who sees business investment as the route to greater prosperity. Before departing the BoE in 2020, Carney told a House of Lords Committee that Brexit uncertainty was holding back business investment. Worse, he said, business planning for various Brexit scenarios was taking up a lot of management effort. “Time spent on contingency planning is time not spent on strategic initiatives,” he said.

Since then, negative perceptions of the UK have continued among business with the chancellor finding he had little bang for his £25bn buck of super deductions in corporation tax to encourage capital spending. As Bailey told MPs last month, the super-deductor was “not at the moment having the impact that was expected”.

Complaints about high immigration was one of the most contentious issues of the referendum, with a central promise of the Brexit campaign being tougher controls over the number of people entering the country. While net immigration from EU countries has stopped, with effectively no change apparent in the two years to the end of June 2021, net immigration from non EU countries has remained high, with 250,000 in the latest year.

There is, as yet, little appetite among Britain’s political leaders for a return to the EU — even if the other 27 member states were prepared to open the door. Even the pro-EU Liberal Democrats admit reversing course is a long-term aspiration, rather than an immediate goal.

As part of his attempt to avert a coup, Johnson wrote to MPs this month that he had “created a new and friendly relationship with the EU”. The opposite is true. Brussels restarted legal action against the UK this week over the Northern Ireland protocol: relations are at rock bottom.

The EU has warned that British scientists will be excluded from the €95bn Horizon research programme as “collateral damage” in the row about Northern Ireland. The prospect of any kind of rapprochement at the moment, at least while Johnson remains prime minister, seems remote.

But in recent weeks, a tentative debate has started over whether the UK would be better off trying to reach accommodations with the EU to smooth trade in some areas, rather than launching a new front in the Brexit war with unilateral action over Northern Ireland.

In an article much-discussed at Westminster, the pro-Leave Times columnist Iain Martin wrote this month: “To deny the downsides of Brexit on trade with the EU is to deny reality.”

Tobias Ellwood, a former Tory defence minister, suggested Britain should rejoin the EU single market to soften the cost of living crisis, and said there was “an appetite” for a rethink and claimed polling indicated “this is not the Brexit most people imagined”. And Daniel Hannan, a leading Tory Brexiter, repeated his longstanding view that Britain should have stayed in the single market under a Norway-style relationship with the EU, while adding that to rejoin it now “would be madness”.

Anna McMorrin, Labour shadow minister, was recorded telling activists: “I hope eventually that we will get back into the single market and customs union.” She was forced to apologise by Starmer: such talk remains dangerous in political circles.

Even so, a Starmer-led future Labour government would change UK relations with the EU. The party’s mantra has become “make Brexit work”: rejoining the single market may be off the agenda, but Labour wants to find ways to improve on the bare-bones tariff-free trade agreement Johnson negotiated with the EU.

Rachel Reeves, the shadow chancellor, told the Financial Times last year that Labour wanted to strike a deal with the EU to reduce the most onerous paperwork and checks on food exports. The party also wants an agreement with Brussels on the mutual recognition of professional qualifications.

Even among the Eurosceptics in Johnson’s cabinet, there is now an acceptance that the UK should be seeking to rebuild economic relations with the EU, including in areas like the Horizon programme, to avoid exacerbating the looming cost of living crisis.

“Would I like to be in a better place on Brexit?” asked one pro-Brexit cabinet member. “Yes, absolutely. But we’ve got to find a way of doing it without it looking like we’re running up the white flag and we’re compromising on sovereignty.”
 
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A depressing, slightly conspiratorial, but all-too-plausible read... I've no doubt that the Tories are aiming for what they might consider a libertarian utopia, no matter if it ends up leaving the vast majority of people with zero representation and completely at the mercy of the ultra rich and the ultra corrupt...
 
A depressing, slightly conspiratorial, but all-too-plausible read... I've no doubt that the Tories are aiming for what they might consider a libertarian utopia, no matter if it ends up leaving the vast majority of people with zero representation and completely at the mercy of the ultra rich and the ultra corrupt...
I'd like them try to pull this off in say Liverpool and still keep it under the table.
 
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Probably a bit political even for this thread, but LBC host James O'Brien argues here that there is a crisis of intelligence at the heart of government. "When Priti Patel promised to end the free movement of people, which people did you think she meant? Everyone but you?"

 
@UKMikey I listened to the video you posted, but in all honesty (and I don't want to seem insulting, I think this is a global problem, not a "Borisian" UK and "Trumpian" USA one) I do believe the intellectual capacity of the voting populations in western democracies has hit rock bottom. So ... stupid people vote and stupid people get elected. It's depressing I know, but you can't blame the stupidly elected, after all they're only the mirror of the stupidly cast votes by stupid people.

Case in point ... another Youtube video, and don't tell me this isn't representative of the UK. It may not be of yourself, and it surely isn't of the majority of brits posting on gtplanet, but it is a relevant (and winning) part of your society.



EDIT - Have you seen V for Vendetta? V's speech says it all when he tells the people that if they want to know who is responsible they only need to look into a mirror. Are I think we - in Europe - need to look into mirrors before we start to decry the deplorable level of our politicians.
 
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@UKMikey I listened to the video you posted, but in all honesty (and I don't want to seem insulting, I think this is a global problem, not a "Borisian" UK and "Trumpian" USA one) I do believe the intellectual capacity of the voting populations in western democracies has hit rock bottom. So ... stupid people vote and stupid people get elected. It's depressing I know, but you can't blame the stupidly elected, after all they're only the mirror of the stupidly cast votes by stupid people.

Case in point ... another Youtube video, and don't tell me this isn't representative of the UK. It may not be of yourself, and it surely isn't of the majority of brits posting on gtplanet, but it is a relevant (and winning) part of your society.



EDIT - Have you seen V for Vendetta? V's speech says it all when he tells the people that if they want to know who is responsible they only need to look into a mirror. Are I think we - in Europe - need to look into mirrors before we start to decry the deplorable level of our politicians.

I don't disagree, but this isn't a new problem (in the UK at least), as this clip from the 90s shows...



...which is why challenging this is so damn important.
 
Labour - the main party of opposition in the UK - didn't take an anti-Brexit stand, so their politicians won't be in a position to point fingers at the Conservatives as the disaster unfolds. I guess their voters didn't either for the most part. You could argue that they were misled with the aid of sinister dark money from foreign influencers but the slim majority who voted for this debacle did so on purpose.

Of course, now they want to blame those who didn't for not believing hard enough that the dying Tinkerbell can get up and fly around again.

 
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@UKMikey it doesn't seem like you're happy about Brexit. We aren't either - refusing to cooperate as easily as possible with economic allies calls the Crown's loyalty into question 😤
 

I'd be interested to know what the figures would be with the old method, or if the post-change workings out could be applied to the data from before, because whilst it's good that a change in methodology is highlighted it does make the graph a bit meaningless without knowing what the change entailed.

Edit: especially as the whole thing is an estimate anyway.
 
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Roo
I'd be interested to know what the figures would be with the old method, or if the post-change workings out could be applied to the data from before, because whilst it's good that a change in methodology is highlighted it does make the graph a bit meaningless without knowing what the change entailed.

Edit: especially as the whole thing is an estimate anyway.
They appear to have be looking to improve on using this as part of the methodology: https://www.ons.gov.uk/surveys/info...ndividualsurveys/internationalpassengersurvey
... which stopped operating during the pandemic, but has since restarted.

Current methodology is here:
 
Poor Joe. This is no laughing matter. It's deadly serious for all of us. But who should he be directing his anger at? The EU, or those in his own government?

 
UK ex-pats/migrants in the EU have been shafted by Brexit - but even in spite of the false promises and lies of the main Brexit protagonists, I will still never understand how any UK ex-pat living in the EU could possibly have thought that scrapping the entire framework that allowed them to live that life was a good idea.

That said, Brexit still probably would have happened even if every ex-pat in the UK had voted to Remain, hence I have great sympathy for the ones that did not vote for Brexit - but for those who did, I can only say well done on throwing your (and every other UK citizen's) right to live in the EU away.
 
UK ex-pats/migrants in the EU have been shafted by Brexit - but even in spite of the false promises and lies of the main Brexit protagonists, I will still never understand how any UK ex-pat living in the EU could possibly have thought that scrapping the entire framework that allowed them to live that life was a good idea.

That said, Brexit still probably would have happened even if every ex-pat in the UK had voted to Remain, hence I have great sympathy for the ones that did not vote for Brexit - but for those who did, I can only say well done on throwing your (and every other UK citizen's) right to live in the EU away.
With 1.1m+ ex-pats living in the EU at the time, there were certainly enough to swing it to remain. But its impossible to know, i imagine, how they actually voted in the first place.

I suppose there are two main demographics for ex-pats. Those who choose to work in other European countries - who are probably on balance europhiles and therefore would have likely voted to remain, and those who have retired and decided to go live somewhere sunny - who are of an age demographic, without wanting to push too many stereotypes, just want to see the world burn - and probably voted to leave.
 
Sorry to intrude, but there a 3rd kind of UK expats, the ones that werent allowed to vote. I don't remember the specifics but IIRC it had to do with how many years you had (in 2016) of living in the EU country. At least two of my British personal friends (one living here in Lisboa, the other in Como, Italy) weren't able to vote and they were furious about it (both remainers).

Again I don't know how much this had an impact regarding the outcome (I suspect litle) but since both these friends of mine are retired folks in their 60's to 70's, they don't fit the stereotype but they couldn't do anything about it
 
Sorry to intrude, but there a 3rd kind of UK expats, the ones that werent allowed to vote. I don't remember the specifics but IIRC it had to do with how many years you had (in 2016) of living in the EU country. At least two of my British personal friends (one living here in Lisboa, the other in Como, Italy) weren't able to vote and they were furious about it (both remainers).

Again I don't know how much this had an impact regarding the outcome (I suspect litle) but since both these friends of mine are retired folks in their 60's to 70's, they don't fit the stereotype but they couldn't do anything about it
I think it was 15 years. If you've been out of the UK for 15 years you didn't get a vote. If for some reason you've not gained citizenship in your other country of residence, you don't get to vote in the UK or the second country's elections either, and you don't get to vote in the European parliamentary election for the country you live in. I know one guy this happened to, granted his scenario was quite a specific one, he lives both here and the EU with his time divided somewhat equally, he was unable to get Dutch citizenship because of dimplomatic treaties covering his job, but didn't even consider it for 15 years because he didn't need to... we were in the EU!

It's one thing for him to have to adjust given the outcome of the vote, but it's another that he didn't even get a say in it.
 
Is there any actual difference between an "ex-pat" and a migrant or immigrant? Is it literally just class/race?
The term probably dates back to British Empire days. People would prefer to allign themselves with some notion of grandness then they do of being just another immigrant, given the negative connotations the term has developed. I don't know if it has any different legal meaning.
 
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Is there any actual difference between an "ex-pat" and a migrant or immigrant? Is it literally just class/race?
There isn't a difference. People just like to complain about "Immigrants" as a generic term, but would never want to consider themselves to be Immigrants. It doesn't help that the Media acts the same way, not wanting to paste British immigrants under the same sneer they aim at people coming to the nation, so they get called "Ex-Pats" as a way of not tarnishing them under the same brush.
 
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