Bring Back The Racing Mod

[Voodoovaj]

You just talked about buying the car. Which is something everyone who has the money can do

Again "normal people". I said it takes "serious coin and connections", which it does.

Spending $450K USD for a racing car alone isn't a "normal people" kind of thing. It's not even a 1% of the planet type of thing, and if you walk into your local Ferrari dealer and ask for one, they'll want a little more information that just the deposit

 

[pedrocor]

Gr. 3 and Gr. 4 try to emulate real world GT3 and GT4 classes.

In both cases are homologated specs classes, BoP controled.
In each case the cars have to be built by manufacturer or the shop responsible (the Porsche Caymans are build by Manthey Racing, the Camaros GT4 by Pratt & Miller), with FIA passports and all the paperwork.
You can't build one at home from a road car, although would be technically possible.

Checking out GT7, you have possibilities comparable to Race Modification on the first titles, with wide bodies, add splitters, rear wings and diffusers, side skirts and so on.
Just expect to make Gr. 3 and Gr. 4 cars, on the GT Auto makes no sense, even from the economics point of view.
You would buy a 2 mil Bugatti to modify it to a 350k Gr. 4 version? Or a 1 mil GT by Citroen? Or a 360k Mercedes SLS AMG? Or even a 340k McLaren 650S?
Even the cheaper cars would be very expensive to put at Gr. 4 level.

 

[Tenacious D]

Maybe even add another race group for slower cars and vintage cars? GR 5 and GR 6

I've proposed this very thing, though I stopped at Gr5. I've been scheming on this for a while now, modding up a bunch of mid-level sports cars to a fantasy Gr5 spec. In fact two groups of them, one set with wide body kit. I've been putting off a post in the Tuning and Livery forums seeking advice because I've been entangled with racing, and fiction writing again lately, but one of these days I'm going to pull that trigger.

It would be supernice if PD threw that at us out of the blue, but till then...

 

[pedrocor]

Discussed a little in this thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-7-tuning-shop-gt-auto.394391/

PD gave us the Civic and S15 RMs in TC form. Plus, the (NA)ROADSTER TC.
View attachment 1160518
View attachment 1160519View attachment 1160520

I‘d love for the RMs to return. Thing is, realistically, at this stage, I can’t see them ever returning.
For one, the livery editor sealed the RM’s fate. Anyone can replicate the liveries of RMs. Two, PD have given us the body customisation tools to replicate the cars. Not exactly with some, but in the same vein as the GT1 & GT2 originals.

Now obviously, race cars need roll cages and removed interior bits. This wasn’t a factor with the blank interior early games. We have race interiors from Gr.4 and Gr.3 cars that could definitely be used for those particular models. It’s just, PD save thmselves time by having the community build the cars rather then PD creating them. The widebody option transforms the muscle & pony cars similar to the RMs. The ‘69 Camaro doesn’t quite get the rear balloon tyres from GT5, but the ‘70 Challenger looks like the RM.

Anyway, I love building my own and would still like to have some PD official cars.

Just have in mind that this feature was only available on 17 of 1000+ cars in GT5/6.

 

[Aksu593]

Racing Modifications or TC models being more heavily featured is such a massive lost opportunity from Polyphony to make GT stand out in the sim-simcade genre instead of just going the easy way and becoming "GT3 Simulator #61590" Gran Turismo 2 let you turn pretty much any car into a full-fledged racing model and you had so much variety in what type of cars were available. Anything from FF Touring Cars to exotic Le Mans racers and rallycars could be built, and at the same time it fit in with things GT is well known for, such as the used car dealer and the extensive tuning options.

It feels like they kinda almost tried it by making some Gr.3 or 4 events let you enter with any car, but even with all these options to play around with the cars I've tried to make still drive like road cars and the fact the interiors are fully loaded even with full weight reduction doesn't exactly help with immersion either

 

[JMR450]

Yes, and I don't know why it was missed. The tuning shop has half the parts, and GT Auto has the rest. If I put all the racing parts on a car, and then I go to GT Auto, put on tow hooks, roll bar, and wings, shouldn't that be a race car?

This is probably why the widebody mod came up. Still, why not have both? I'd love both. I'd sure want more cars!! One for road, one for race.

It's like they thought about it, but then pulled it or failed to follow through.


I REALLY hope they add this in the future.

I've begun building my own Gr4 cars with these mods as you suggested. I am now looking to build fwd cars/touring cars and see how they stack up against the Gr4 cars. I usually buy two cars if I plan to make a "race" version so I have the road car and a race car. I also have a couple that I put race tires on as a track day setup as you would if you raced track days for real.

 

[Stakado]

I've proposed this very thing, though I stopped at Gr5. I've been scheming on this for a while now, modding up a bunch of mid-level sports cars to a fantasy Gr5 spec. In fact two groups of them, one set with wide body kit. I've been putting off a post in the Tuning and Livery forums seeking advice because I've been entangled with racing, and fiction writing again lately, but one of these days I'm going to pull that trigger.

It would be supernice if PD threw that at us out of the blue, but till then...

I am thinking to make a thread like the custom gr4, but in custom Gr5.
I think 500/550pp maybe a good point,
200hp and 1000/1100kg.
What do you think?

 

[Samus]

Gr. 3 and Gr. 4 try to emulate real world GT3 and GT4 classes.

VERY loosely. Have you seen some of the cars in those classes?

 

[Voodoovaj]

I am thinking to make a thread like the custom gr4, but in custom Gr5.
I think 500/550pp maybe a good point,
200hp and 1000/1100kg.
What do you think?

I think GR 5

200hp or less. A class for the Abarth (old and new) and other subcompacts.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Gr. 3 and Gr. 4 try to emulate real world GT3 and GT4 classes.

In both cases are homologated specs classes, BoP controled.
In each case the cars have to be built by manufacturer or the shop responsible (the Porsche Caymans are build by Manthey Racing, the Camaros GT4 by Pratt & Miller), with FIA passports and all the paperwork.
You can't build one at home from a road car, although would be technically possible.

Checking out GT7, you have possibilities comparable to Race Modification on the first titles, with wide bodies, add splitters, rear wings and diffusers, side skirts and so on.
Just expect to make Gr. 3 and Gr. 4 cars, on the GT Auto makes no sense, even from the economics point of view.
You would buy a 2 mil Bugatti to modify it to a 350k Gr. 4 version? Or a 1 mil GT by Citroen? Or a 360k Mercedes SLS AMG? Or even a 340k McLaren 650S?
Even the cheaper cars would be very expensive to put at Gr. 4 level.

People buy 450k credit GR 3 cars even though you can rent them for free. The economy is what it is, and it likely won't change, so we just make the best of it.

In fact, the rental feature makes an RM mod make more sense. Each player gets to make cars that are more unique.

The biggest change is that the class will change. Building a car to GR3 spec, for instance, is only useful offline or in races that are not class restricted.

AND..... I brought this up because it is essentially already in the game. What's lacking is a few chassis values and a classification change.

 

[JMR450]

I am thinking to make a thread like the custom gr4, but in custom Gr5.
I think 500/550pp maybe a good point,
200hp and 1000/1100kg.
What do you think?

That would be great. Your Custom Gr4 thread inspired me to build a variety of Gr4 cars not currently in the game.

 

[Stakado]

I think GR 5

200hp or less. A class for the Abarth (old and new) and other subcompacts.

Yes, something between 175 and 200hp, like the civic touring car. Maybe with sport soft instead of racing hard.
But, well think, sport soft didn't work on custom races I think

 

[05XR8]

I mean, we have these. This was a car I’ve been wanting since forever. We never saw it again after GT2. I even made the GT300 version using the S.S. Trueno. Makes close to the real life car’s BHP.

The class SHOULD have been called "LM" in keeping with tradition. It's a misstep they took in GTSport.

If it was the LM class, it opens the door to all the LM cars of the past.

Well, It's a game, so....

IRL, they are still mods of the base car. it's just that factories have more resources than a normal person. A normal person cannot just go out and buy a Gr3 car either. It takes serious coin and connections.

The Race cars have different chassis specs. Just as buying the weight reduction mod changes your chassis specs, a race mod would change the chassis specs.


IRL, many racing series will require the car to be modified with a special fuel cell that is fire proof and fits a very specific set of rules.

I would take the simplest route possible, given that the team struggles with the minutiae of some features, and it could be why it's not in the game.

For cars with available race versions right now, the "race mod" gives you the same car, but with no decals. So, for the NEW NSX, GR4 Race mod gives you the GR4 car, GrB Mod gives you the GR B car, GR3 mod gives you the GR3 car, and GR2 mod give you the GR2 car, all without decals. The mod alone would be priced a little less than buying in Brand Central, but more overall, because you have to buy the base car.

But it's not "the same". The visuals are close, but the chassis are different. A RM would give the car the chassis values needed to be in the class, and it would change the designation of the car from "road car" to whatever class you modded it to. So, when a race says "GR4", I can take a Gr4 RM into it.

Most cars allow for roll cages to be added to them right now. This is where it dawned on me that this is not only a realistic addition, but likely part of the original plan.

Most cars can have a wide body
Most cars can have tow hooks added
Most cars can have hood pins added
Most cars can have a roll cage added
Most cars have "racing" parts available to them

One does not exclude the other. It Also allows for more Easter Eggs like the BMW CSL Race car.

Lastly, if this isn't proof that they thought of adding an RM Mod, I don't know what is. Someone also mentioned that you can convert the F40 into the F40 Competezione... They need to finished this feature, and then open the door to the great LM's of the past like the NSX LM, the GTR LM, The FTO LM, etc

Thing is, how some say PD do some things half assed and with PDLogic, all the tools are there to just click an RM option, but it’s as if they saved themselves time by not doing it. As you say, the chassis part, which make a race car suspension feel tighter than tuning a race suspension on a road car. Those parameters are left out. The fuel discrepancy is left out.

Some cars don’t have the RM specific parts, like the remove bumper option & front mount for the KPGC10

Also, for minor details for cars, like: the E30 that can delete High beams and the ‘65 Mini that has all the bits of the rally car(which PD decided to delete standard roll cage as found in GTSport). Again, for whatever reason they do stuff.

Speaking on that Gr.5, I use RH for all cars. To at least help the slower cars run quicker in the corners and not be total road blocks.

 

[Voodoovaj]

I mean, we have these. This was a car I’ve been wanting since forever. We never saw it again after GT2. I even made the GT300 version using the S.S. Trueno. Makes close to the real life car’s BHP.
View attachment 1160659
View attachment 1160666

Thing is, how some say PD do some things half assed and with PDLogic, all the tools are there to just click an RM option, but it’s as if they saved themselves time by not doing it. As you say, the chassis part, which make a race car suspension feel tighter than tuning a race suspension on a road car. Those parameters are left out. The fuel discrepancy is left out.

Some cars don’t have the RM specific parts, like the remove bumper option & front mount for the KPGC10
View attachment 1160669
View attachment 1160668

Also, for minor details for cars, like: the E30 that can delete High beams and the ‘65 Mini that has all the bits of the rally car(which PD decided to delete standard roll cage as found in GTSport). Again, for whatever reason they do stuff.

Speaking on that Gr.5, I use RH for all cars. To at least help the slower cars run quicker in the corners and not be total road blocks.
View attachment 1160677

I am totally building that old skyline😻

 

[DeolTheBeast]

Agree, RM was definitely needed for a portion of the car list anyway.

NSX being a great example as mentioned above, it raced at GT2 class in Le Mans but could also easily have GR3 / GR4 variants.

The issue with self modifying the cars to meet those classes of car - is that they still massively lack downforce and grip levels of the full blown GR cars in game. It's not the same - and we have been robbed of some more interesting combinations with the cars already in the game.

 

[Tenacious D]

What do you think?

I DO think!

I always want to push for a little more performance - I'm addicted to speed and adrenaline. I ended up finding a sweet spot for me in a 1:45-ish lap at Deep Forest, a track with a great set of all the useful track characteristics, from tight turns and a hairpin to elevation changes. Because of the PP system though, I ended up with a range of specifications for cars running from the Miata Touring Car through race tuned Supras. As with 05XR8, on racing hards to give every car competitive grip through turns, as sports softs are just too slippery on many of them. Weights from 1500lbs to 2800, horsepower from 100 to 220, all for the sake of being within a few tenths of that 1:45 limit. A better racer would most likely need to detune them further as they blasted through that time mark, but this is just my initial take on it. When I take it more seriously, I'll be making that advice post in the Tuning forum.

 

[Voodoovaj]

The issue with self modifying the cars to meet those classes of car - is that they still massively lack downforce and grip levels of the full blown GR cars in game. It's not the same - and we have been robbed of some more interesting combinations with the cars already in the game.

People forget that this is a game and everything is controlled behind the scenes. The game system is likely exactly the same as it was in GT5. All they need to do is add more selections in the "Extreme" portion of the tuning shop. You click on the race group you want to mod to, and the game gives you the downforce and fuel capacity needed, as well as reclassification.

When GT5 was hacked for modding you could see "how the sausage is made' so to speak.

BTW, as mentioned, I made my own GTR 2000 "RM". As you can see, it's everything that would be necessary. It just needs a class to run in, although I suppose I could get up to GR4 pace.

 

[dimedancing]

 

[Nathan88]

The class SHOULD have been called "LM" in keeping with tradition. It's a misstep they took in GTSport.

If it was the LM class, it opens the door to all the LM cars of the past.

Well, It's a game, so....

IRL, they are still mods of the base car. it's just that factories have more resources than a normal person. A normal person cannot just go out and buy a Gr3 car either. It takes serious coin and connections.

The Race cars have different chassis specs. Just as buying the weight reduction mod changes your chassis specs, a race mod would change the chassis specs.


IRL, many racing series will require the car to be modified with a special fuel cell that is fire proof and fits a very specific set of rules.

I would take the simplest route possible, given that the team struggles with the minutiae of some features, and it could be why it's not in the game.

For cars with available race versions right now, the "race mod" gives you the same car, but with no decals. So, for the NEW NSX, GR4 Race mod gives you the GR4 car, GrB Mod gives you the GR B car, GR3 mod gives you the GR3 car, and GR2 mod give you the GR2 car, all without decals. The mod alone would be priced a little less than buying in Brand Central, but more overall, because you have to buy the base car.

But it's not "the same". The visuals are close, but the chassis are different. A RM would give the car the chassis values needed to be in the class, and it would change the designation of the car from "road car" to whatever class you modded it to. So, when a race says "GR4", I can take a Gr4 RM into it.

Most cars allow for roll cages to be added to them right now. This is where it dawned on me that this is not only a realistic addition, but likely part of the original plan.

Most cars can have a wide body
Most cars can have tow hooks added
Most cars can have hood pins added
Most cars can have a roll cage added
Most cars have "racing" parts available to them

One does not exclude the other. It Also allows for more Easter Eggs like the BMW CSL Race car.

Lastly, if this isn't proof that they thought of adding an RM Mod, I don't know what is. Someone also mentioned that you can convert the F40 into the F40 Competezione... They need to finished this feature, and then open the door to the great LM's of the past like the NSX LM, the GTR LM, The FTO LM, etc

Regarding the CSL. You could say the same about the Delta Integrale. Aero options include Group A rally parts. But numerous lists say the actual rally car is still planned.

Discussed a little in this thread https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/gran-turismo-7-tuning-shop-gt-auto.394391/

PD gave us the Civic and S15 RMs in TC form. Plus, the (NA)ROADSTER TC.
View attachment 1160518
View attachment 1160519View attachment 1160520

I‘d love for the RMs to return. Thing is, realistically, at this stage, I can’t see them ever returning.
For one, the livery editor sealed the RM’s fate. Anyone can replicate the liveries of RMs. Two, PD have given us the body customisation tools to replicate the cars. Not exactly with some, but in the same vein as the GT1 & GT2 originals.

Now obviously, race cars need roll cages and removed interior bits. This wasn’t a factor with the blank interior early games. We have race interiors from Gr.4 and Gr.3 cars that could definitely be used for those particular models. It’s just, PD save thmselves time by having the community build the cars rather then PD creating them. The widebody option transforms the muscle & pony cars similar to the RMs. The ‘69 Camaro doesn’t quite get the rear balloon tyres from GT5, but the ‘70 Challenger looks like the RM.

Anyway, I love building my own and would still like to have some PD official cars.

Back in earlier GT’s RM’s had a passing resemblance to race versions of said cars. But it could all get a bit weird with incorrect engines and so on.

Maybe that’s why they went down the TC route. The EK Civic seems to be based on the Group A car. The Mazda is your standard MX-5 race car. While the Silvia is based on the old GT300 model. The R32 & R33 TC’s in GT6 are based on early GT500 models. When the R32 crossed over from Group A touring cars.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Back in earlier GT’s RM’s had a passing resemblance to race versions of said cars. But it could all get a bit weird with incorrect engines and so on.

Weird? Incorrect engine?

I've already come to accept the VW Beetle GR3, The Citroen GR4/3, and the Toyota FT1 GR3, not to mention the parade of fictitious GR1 cars. Since this would be a "Racing Mod" of the car I currently own, I would not expect it to transform into a completely different car every time.

Besides, the "engine" is a database value, so swap the value, just like you can swap engines right now. Then again, who really cares? Many of the cars in the racing groups don't really exist, ergo their engines are hypothetical.

Maybe that’s why they went down the TC route. The EK Civic seems to be based on the Group A car. The Mazda is your standard MX-5 race car. While the Silvia is based on the old GT300 model. The R32 & R33 TC’s in GT6 are based on very early GT500. When the R32 crossed over from Group A touring cars.

And this is why we can't have nice things.

So, instead of having hundreds of cars to choose from for a Gr4, or Gr3 race, or even add more groups, we'll get pedantic?

The game has cars, and no where to race them at the moment. They also have this dangling thread feature where you can ALMOST make an RM version of your car, but you can't enter it into any class limited races. The classes are already mixed (ex. Alfa DTM in group 4).

 

[tankuroded]

Weird? Incorrect engine?

For instance: BTCC/JTCC cars are 2-liter 4-cylinders, but if you RM the Renault Laguna (for instance) the game retains it's V6 powertrain. And then there was the Ford Taurus...

 

[Voodoovaj]

For instance: BTCC/JTCC cars are 2-liter 4-cylinders, but if you RM the Renault Laguna (for instance) the game retains it's V6 powertrain. And then there was the Ford Taurus...

Ok.... And so?

This is not a BTCC or JTCC simulator. I am pretty sure most people would be happier to get more use out of their cars than worry about what the caption in the tuning menu says.

 

[05XR8]

Yeah, I was fine with the engine stuff. It’s the actual car customisation that I loved in GT1&2. For my history of playing the GT series, the BTCC Racing Modifications, are still the ultimate replications PD have ever made. No doubt that era of Touring cars makes me biased.

I’ll bring up the Mario Andretti build. Kaz had mentioned players would be able to build their own cars. That was 10 years ago. This may be what he was getting to. Again, it’s not polished.
Could be that lazy cliché. I mean similar to Base Models and now, having livery editor be the replacement for the multiple liveries we used to get.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Yeah, I was fine with the engine stuff. It’s the actual car customisation that I loved in GT1&2. For my history of playing the GT series, the BTCC Racing Modifications, are still the ultimate replications PD have ever made. No doubt that era of Touring cars makes me biased.

I should add that many of the cars in the race categories have generic engine names "F4-WRX-GR4" "L4-RCZ-GR3" "V8-F-Type-GR3"

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" ~ William Shakespeare

I’ll bring up the Mario Andretti build. Kaz had mentioned players would be able to build their own cars. That was 10 years ago. This may be what he was getting to. Again, it’s not polished.
Could be that lazy cliché. I mean similar to Base Models and now, having livery editor be the replacement for the multiple liveries we used to get.

Ya, but "ownership" is a powerful emotional motivator in games. Having a car with a livery you made is always going to be more of an attachment than one PD made.

 

[05XR8]

I should add that many of the cars in the race categories have generic engine names "F4-WRX-GR4" "L4-RCZ-GR3" "V8-F-Type-GR3"

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" ~ William Shakespeare

Ya, but "ownership" is a powerful emotional motivator in games. Having a car with a livery you made is always going to be more of an attachment than one PD made.

Oh, I’m just saying as choices for players that, as we see, may not have the time and/or skill to make particular liveries. Some may not be as creative as they’d like to be in this area. The plethora of liveries we used to get, are overwhelming. In the Race Modification thread by @C_Raccoon23 https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/racing-modification-screenshot-collection.357604/ we’ll never see this again. Regardless of 16-bit, 32-bit, etc. I’m sure PD could create skins(like some Gr.4 cars already have), but looks like they’re done.
The Gr.4 Swift is only one new car they’ve created, with multiple liver…uh, Color choices. The Civic & S15 TC cars are pretty my Base Models.

 

[Nathan88]

Ok.... And so?

This is not a BTCC or JTCC simulator. I am pretty sure most people would be happier to get more use out of their cars than worry about what the caption in the tuning menu says.

Do cars need to be in official race groupings? With all the effort that goes into balancing those for competition. Seems like a recipe for BoP hell.

I’d like RM’s to convert cars into TC’s. These could be used in PP events and tuned to your spec. Some of the most fun I’ve had is with the TC Civic EK. It’s a giant killing machine.

I think that’s why people enjoyed the BTCC RM’s. We already had official race versions of high end GT cars. It was the more modest stuff people enjoyed tuning and race modding.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Do cars need to be in official race groupings? With all the effort that goes into balancing those for competition. Seems like a recipe for BoP hell.

Yes, they need to be in groups, otherwise they end up useless for online play.

BoP can be automated. They didn't need Sophy for this, but it has been mentioned. Just as game background would render for shadow maps, they could, essentially, render the BoP by allowing the AI to run multiple simulations for every car. But, what it seems like, is they have a formula that they then adjust manually.

That's the PP calculation in a nutshell.

I’d like RM’s to convert cars into TC’s. These could be used in PP events and tuned to your spec. Some of the most fun I’ve had is with the TC Civic EK. It’s a giant killing machine.

I think that’s why people enjoyed the BTCC RM’s. We already had official race versions of high end GT cars. It was the more modest stuff people enjoyed tuning and race modding.

When hosting a lobby, having the ability to restrict the entries is essential. Just typing the limitation in the name is a massive pain and does little to stop people from entering with the wrong car

Just like when people enter a clearly labelled room, then ask the host to change the settings to suit them .

 

[Voodoovaj]

You know, there are many ways of dealing with the "issues" that people find.

For instance, I'll use the NSX (again). If the player goes to the "Extreme" tuning to select a race mod, there will be "N/A" labelled in all the mods, because they are available in Brand Central. There. simple...done.

It can also all be a single class called "RM" with the races divided by PP, and it needs to be a mod, because the cars really do need more downforce and a little more balance.

I did "800PP" "RM" of the Bugatti and the Ferrari LaFerrari. I did some quick and dirty runs with little tuning and got them into the 3:41's at LeMans - Yes, they have widebodies too.

 

[Tenacious D]

what it seems like, is they have a formula that they then adjust manually.

Frankly, I think that's a better solution. I question how well a computer can digitally "understand" how us Humans drive.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Frankly, I think that's a better solution. I question how well a computer can digitally "understand" how us Humans drive.

Ha, that's literally what Sophy is doing 😂