- 9,262
- Corsham
- lipming
You're excluding an awful lot of normal people with that definition.
It's an approximation of people in a low-income demographic.
You're excluding an awful lot of normal people with that definition.
So we are not talking about normal people then? We are talking about people based only on their income? Unless we consider all those who make a little over the national average to be not normal?It's an approximation of people in a low-income demographic.
He's a privately-educated career bureaucrat, who grew up in a country house, lives in a million quid Islington flat and has drawn an MP's salary for 34 years.Neither of them are brilliant but Corbyn at least has some awareness of what it's like to be a normal person in this country.
2011.We had a choice about adopting proportional representation? Forgive me, but I have spent 15 years out of the country so probably missed it. When did we get that choice?
Just 20 votes in it apparently.Been nearly 24 hours and still nothing from Kensington.
He's a privately-educated career bureaucrat, who grew up in a country house, lives in a million quid Islington flat and has drawn an MP's salary for 34 years.
May's not better in that regard, but Corbyn's life experience as a well-funded peacenik isn't exactly man-of-the-people stuff.
So we are not talking about normal people then? We are talking about people based only on their income? Unless we consider all those who make a little over the national average to be not normal?
That's like saying I need to be disabled to understand the needs of disabled people.He's a privately-educated career bureaucrat, who grew up in a country house, lives in a million quid Islington flat and has drawn an MP's salary for 34 years.
May's not better in that regard, but Corbyn's life experience as a well-funded peacenik isn't exactly man-of-the-people stuff.
If he has no experience of it, how has he acquired the ability to be aware of what it's like to be a normal person in this country?I didn't say he had to be a man of the people himself in order to understand and sympathise with their situation.
Not really. It might help your awareness of what it's like to be a disabled person in this country though - which is what was actually said.That's like saying I need to be disabled to understand the needs of disabled people
If he has no experience of it, how has he acquired the ability to be aware of what it's like to be a normal person in this country?
How is he demonstrating that awareness where others aren't?
So taking away income from that list, what stops people who make over £30k from being on that list?I'm referring to normal as in people with a low income, ordinary jobs, ordinary households, ordinary lifestyles.
The working classes, if you may.
That doesn't answer either the original question or the follow-up.By witnessing the people he's meant to serve living it, maybe?
So taking away income from that list, what stops people who make over £30k from being on that list?
That doesn't answer either the original question or the follow-up.
How is he aware of what it's like to be a normal person in this country when he hasn't been one? How is he demonstrating this? How are others not?
Also he serves Islington.
This reads like you are suggesting that he's aware of what it's like to be 'a normal person' because he's spoken to some in the last 8 weeks. Or possibly the last 2 years.Again, he's aware by virtue of the fact that he has witnessed and acknowledged the struggles that low-income families and households endure.
How? Where? Give examples.He's demonstrated it through his entire election campaign and manifesto
2011.
This reads like you are suggesting that he's aware of what it's like to be 'a normal person' because he's spoken to some in the last 8 weeks. Or possibly the last 2 years.
I recall the words of the great poet Cocker at this point. Simply speaking to them isn't enough to be aware of what their lives are like. Sure, he can empathise and grasp their needs, but he - and he is by no means alone here in the 650 member house - has no more awareness of what it's like to be the common man than he does of what it's like to be a cat.
How? Where? Give examples.
This isn't a trick question. I didn't vote for anyone (though I did vote) and have already said in this thread today that I agree with his social policies more than I do most of the others.
I want to know what Corbyn said during the campaign - or before - that gave you the impression that he has awareness of what it's like to be a normal person in this country.
Well one of his biggest campaign promises was to abolish tuition fees, which are inevitably going to go up, and bring back grants. He's committed to maintaining the under-funded NHS, and increasing funding for state schools and keep free school meals instead of building more grammar schools. He wants to keep the triple lock on pensions and abolish bedroom tax, as examples.
So you are really just talking about income level. I think it's wrong to say people who earn over £30k are not normal.Well, having more money, being able to live more comfortably and not being as screwed over by Tory policies, the moe your income goes up, the more it plays in to the Tories' hands.
I'm struggling to see how that's a 'normal people' policy.Well one of his biggest campaign promises was to abolish tuition fees, which are inevitably going to go up, and bring back grants.
Well, that's a shoo-in. 'Normal people' certainly do care about getting other people to pay for their healthcare for them, but that's not exactly a huge insight.He's committed to maintaining the under-funded NHS
I'm in two minds on this one.and increasing funding for state schools and keep free school meals
Wants free, selective education for adults who choose it; doesn't want free, selective education for children who are required to have it.instead of building more grammar schools.
Oh yeah, normal people really care about their pensions and spare bedrooms.He wants to keep the triple lock on pensions and abolish bedroom tax, as examples.
I'm afraid I don't know that much about you to judge if you're 'at the bottom' or 'normal'.his party's manifesto is a breath of fresh air compared to the Tories pandering to the rich and screwing over people at the bottom like me.
Indeed - and this is part of my puzzlement.I'm not sure how campaign promises are supposed to be the same thing as actual empathy in the first place.
If you say so - though only one of your quoted policies hits that particular marker. Since that's the NHS, which has something of a non-partisan appeal, even that one isn't exactly gold standard.Jesus Christ, has this really become a discussion over the use of one word? You've read way too much into the word "normal". Call it average, call it common, call it working class, call it poor, call it not abnormally wealthy, call it whatever. He is listening to and standing up for the poorest, most disadvantaged, most underhanded and most underprivileged in this country, who form a considerable bulk of the population.
As is your prerogative, but again Corbyn is a manor-born, privately educated, 34-year career MP with a line in rather well-funded pacifist protesting. I'm not sure that's a mast to nail the 'knows what it's like to be common/poor/normal' colours to.I'm just glad that someone who has any real power in parliament is listening, and there's someone who cares about those that the Tories seem to forget exist.
Remind me. Whats wrong with him?The biggest shock of the election has to be Keith Vaz getting re-elected.
How?!
From wiki.Remind me. Whats wrong with him?
Rushdie affair[edit]
Further information: The Satanic Verses controversy
In March 1989, Vaz, a Catholic, led a march of several thousand Muslims in Leicester calling for Salman Rushdie's book The Satanic Verses to be banned,[12] describing the march as "one of the great days in the history of Islam and Great Britain."[13] According to Rushdie's autobiography Joseph Anton, Vaz had a few weeks earlier promised his "full support" to Rushdie, describing the fatwa against Rushdie as "absolutely appalling".[13]
Leicester IRA attack[edit]
In February 1990, after a bombing attack by the Provisional Irish Republican Army against a British Army recruiting centre in Leicester, Vaz publicly suggested that the Army had stored explosives on the premises.[14]
Filkin inquiry[edit]
In February 2000, the Parliamentary standards watchdog Elizabeth Filkin began an investigation after allegations that Vaz had accepted several thousand pounds from a solicitor, Sarosh Zaiwalla, which he had failed to declare. The allegations were made by Andrew Milne, a former partner of Zaiwalla, and were denied by both Vaz and Zaiwalla.[15][16] He was censured for a single allegation – that he had failed to register two payments worth £4,500 in total from Zaiwalla.[17] Vaz was accused of blocking Fitkin's investigation into the allegations.[18]
Hinduja affair[edit]
In January 2001, immigration minister Barbara Roche revealed in a written Commons reply that Vaz, along with Peter Mandelson and other MPs, had contacted the Home Office about the Hinduja brothers. She said that Vaz had made inquiries about when a decision on their application for citizenship could be expected.[19]
On 25 January, Vaz had become the focus of Opposition questions about the Hinduja affair and many parliamentary questions were tabled, demanding that he fully disclose his role. Vaz said via a Foreign Office spokesman that he would be "fully prepared" to answer questions put to him by Sir Anthony Hammond QC who had been asked by the Prime Minister to carry out an inquiry into the affair.
Vaz had known the Hinduja brothers for some time; he had been present when the charitable Hinduja Foundation was set up in 1993, and also delivered a speech in 1998 when the brothers invited Tony and Cherie Blair to a Diwali celebration.[20]
On 26 January 2001, John Redwood MP accused Prime Minister Tony Blair of prejudicing the independent inquiry into the Hinduja passport affair, after Blair declared that the Foreign Office minister Keith Vaz had not done "anything wrong".[21] On the same day, Vaz told reporters that they would "regret" their behaviour once the facts of the case were revealed. "Some of you are going to look very foolish when this report comes out. Some of the stuff you said about Peter, and about others and me, you'll regret very much when the facts come out," he said. When asked why the passport application of one of the Hinduja brothers had been processed more quickly than normal, being processed and sanctioned in six months when the process can take up to two years, he replied, "It is not unusual."[22]
On 29 January, the government confirmed that the Hinduja Foundation had held a reception for Vaz in September 1999 to celebrate his appointment as the first Asian Minister in recent times. The party was not listed by Vaz in House of Commons register of Members' Interests and John Redwood, then head of the Conservative Parliamentary Campaigns Unit, questioned Vaz's judgement in accepting the hospitality.[23]
In March, Vaz was ordered to co-operate fully with a new inquiry launched into his financial affairs by Elizabeth Filkin. Foreign Secretary Robin Cook, Vaz's superior, also urged him to answer fully allegations about his links with the Hinduja brothers. Vaz met Filkin on 20 March to discuss a complaint that the Hinduja Foundation had given £1,200 to Mapesbury Communications, a company run by his wife, in return for helping to organise a Hinduja-sponsored reception at the House of Commons. Vaz had previously denied receiving money from the Hindujas, but insisted that he made no personal gain from the transaction in question.[24][25]
In June 2001, Vaz said that he had made representations during the Hinduja brothers' applications for British citizenship while a backbench MP. Tony Blair also admitted that Vaz had "made representations" on behalf of other Asians.[26]
On 11 June 2001, Vaz was dismissed from his post as Europe Minister, to be replaced by Peter Hain. The Prime Minister's office said that Vaz had written to Tony Blair stating his wish to stand down for health reasons.[27]
In December 2001, Elizabeth Filkin cleared Vaz of failing to register payments to his wife's law firm by the Hinduja brothers, but said that he had colluded with his wife to conceal the payments. Filkin's report said that the payments had been given to his wife for legal advice on immigration issues and concluded that Vaz had gained no direct personal benefit, and that Commons rules did not require him to disclose payments made to his wife. She did, however, criticise him for his secrecy, saying, "It is clear to me there has been deliberate collusion over many months between Mr Vaz and his wife to conceal this fact and to prevent me from obtaining accurate information about his possible financial relationship with the Hinduja family".[28]
Suspension from House of Commons[edit]
In 2002, Vaz was suspended from the House of Commons for one month after a Committee on Standards and Privileges inquiry found that he had made false allegations against Eileen Eggington, a former policewoman. The committee concluded that "Mr Vaz recklessly made a damaging allegation against Miss Eggington to the Commissioner, which was not true, and which could have intimidated Miss Eggington or undermined her credibility".[29]
Eileen Eggington, a retired police officer who had served 34 years in the Metropolitan Police, including a period as deputy head of Special Branch, wanted to help a friend, Mary Grestny, who had worked as personal assistant to Vaz's wife. After leaving the job in May 2000, Grestny dictated a seven-page statement about Mrs Vaz to Eggington in March 2001, who sent it to Elizabeth Filkin. Grestny's statement included allegations that Mr and Mrs Vaz had employed an illegal immigrant as their nanny and that they had been receiving gifts from Asian businessmen such as the Hinduja brothers. The allegations were denied by Mr Vaz and the Committee found no evidence to support them.[29]
In late 2001, Vaz complained to Leicestershire police that his mother had been upset by a telephone call from "a woman named Mrs Egginton", who claimed to be a police officer. The accusations led to Eggington being questioned by police.[30] Vaz also wrote a letter of complaint to Elizabeth Filkin, but when she tried to make inquiries Vaz accused her of interfering with a police inquiry and threatened to report her to the Speaker of the House of Commons. Eggington denied that she had ever telephoned Vaz's mother and offered her home and mobile telephone records as evidence. The Commons committee decided that she was telling the truth. They added: "Mr Vaz recklessly made a damaging allegation against Miss Eggington, which was not true and which could have intimidated Miss Eggington and undermined her credibility."
A letter to Elizabeth Filkin from Detective Superintendent Nick Gargan made it plain that the police did not believe Vaz's mother ever received the phone call and the person who came closest to being prosecuted was not Eggington but Vaz. Gargan said that the police had considered a range of possible offences, including wasteful employment of the police, and an attempt to pervert the course of justice. Leicestershire police eventually decided not to prosecute. "We cannot rule out a tactical motivation for Mr Vaz's contact with Leicestershire Constabulary but the evidence does not support further investigation of any attempt to pervert the course of justice."[29]
The complaints the committee upheld against Mr Vaz were:[31]
It was concluded that Vaz had "committed serious breaches of the Code of Conduct and showed contempt for the House" and it was recommended that he be suspended from the House of Commons for one month.[32]
- That he had given misleading information to the Standards and Privileges Committee and Elizabeth Filkin about his financial relationship to the Hinduja brothers.
- That he had failed to register his paid employment at the Leicester Law Centre when he first entered Parliament in 1987.
- That he had failed to register a donation from the Caparo group in 1993.
Vaz was represented by his solicitor Sir Geoffrey Bindman.[33]
Nadhmi Auchi[edit]
In 2001, it was revealed that Vaz had assisted Anglo-Iraqi billionaire Nadhmi Auchi in his attempts to avoid extradition to France. Opposition MPs called for an investigation into what one dubbed "Hinduja Mark II".[34]
Auchi was wanted for questioning by French police for his alleged role in the notorious Elf Aquitaine fraud scandal which led to the arrest of a former French Foreign Minister. The warrant issued by French authorities in July 2000 accused Auchi of "complicity in the misuse of company assets and receiving embezzled company assets". It also covered Auchi's associate Nasir Abid and stated that, if found guilty of the alleged offences, both men could face 109 years in jail.[34]
Vaz was a director of the British arm of Auchi's corporation, General Mediterranean Holdings, whose previous directors had included Lords Steel and Lamont, and Jacques Santer. Vaz used his political influence on GMH's behalf; this included a party in the Park Lane Hilton to celebrate the 20th anniversary of GMH on 23 April 1999, where Lord Sainsbury presented Auchi with a painting of the House of Commons signed by Tony Blair, the Opposition leaders, and over 100 other leading British politicians. Lord Sainsbury later told The Observer that he did this "as a favour for Keith Vaz". In May 1999, Vaz resigned his post as a director after he was appointed a Minister. In a statement to The Observer, a GMH spokesman said that Vaz had been invited to become a GMH director in January 1999, yet company accounts showed Vaz as a director for the financial year ending December 1998.[34]
Labour confirmed in May 2001 that Auchi had called Vaz at home about the arrest warrant to ask him for advice. A spokesman said that Vaz "made some factual inquiries to the Home Office about the [extradition] procedure." This included advising Auchi to consult his local MP. The spokesman stressed that Vaz acted properly at all times and was often contacted by members of Britain's ethnic communities for help. In a Commons answer to Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker earlier the same month Vaz confirmed that "details of enquiries by Mr Auchi have been passed to the Home Office".[34]
Campaign against video game violence[edit]
Following the February 2004 murder of a fourteen-year-old boy, Vaz asked for an investigation of the relationship between the video games and violence, saying the parents of the victim believed that the killer was influenced by the video game Manhunt. Although the police dismissed the claim and the only copy found belonged to the victim, Tony Blair said the game was unsuitable for children and agreed to discuss with the Home Secretary what action could be taken.[35] The sequel, Manhunt 2, described by the British Board of Film Censors as "distinguishable ..by its unremitting bleakness and callousness of tone", became the first video game banned by the BBFC in the UK for 10 years. Vaz said: "This is an excellent decision by the British Board of Film Classification, showing that game publishers cannot expect to get interactive games where players take the part of killers engaged in 'casual sadism' and murder."[36]
Vaz has also criticised Bully, which had a pre-release screenshot showing three uniformed pupils fighting and kicking.[37] In 2005, he asked Geoff Hoon: "Does the leader of the house share my concern at the decision of Rockstar Games to publish a new game called Bully in which players use their on-screen persona to kick and punch other schoolchildren?"[37] Due to the controversy surrounding the Bully title, the game was released in the UK in 2006 under an alternative name though the original title was restored when the game was re-released in 2008 with a BBFC 15 rating and some positive reviews.
In October 2010, Vaz put down an early day motion noting that the 2009–10 Malmö shootings "have been associated with the violent video game Counter-Strike." The EDM also noted that the game had been previously banned in Brazil and also been associated with US College Campus massacres in 2007. It called on the Government to ensure the purchase of video games by minors was controlled and that parents were provided with clear information on any violent content.[38]
Home Affairs Select Committee[edit]
In July 2007, Vaz was elected as the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee. Select committee members are usually proposed by the Committee of Selection which, under the Standing Orders of the House, nominates members to select committees.,[39] but unusually Vaz was the only nomination made by Harriet Harman, Leader of the House of Commons and Lord Privy Seal. Harman argued that this was because there was not sufficient time to go through the usual procedure before the impending summer recess. The Chairman of the Committee of Selection told the House that the Committee had been ready to meet earlier that week, but had been advised by the Government that there was no business for it to transact.[40] Vaz replaced John Denham on 26 July 2007. Vaz was re-elected to the Committee's chairmanship in June 2015.[41]
Speculation over Counter-Terrorism Bill[edit]
Vaz's backing for the 42-day terrorist detention without charge "was seen as crucial by the Government."[42] During the debate on 10 June 2008, the day before the key vote, Vaz was asked in Parliament whether he had been offered an honour for his support. He said: “No, it was certainly not offered—but I do not know; there is still time.”[42] The Daily Telegraph printed a hand written letter to Vaz, written the day after the vote, Geoff Hoon wrote:
“Dear Keith... Just a quick note to thank you for all your help during the period leading up to last Wednesday’s vote. I wanted you to know how much I appreciated all your help. I trust that it will be appropriately rewarded!... With thanks and best wishes, Geoff.”[42]
Vaz wrote to the Press Council complaining the story was inaccurate, that the letter had been obtained by subterfuge and that he had not been contacted before the story was published. The complaint was rejected as the article made it clear that the reports of an honour were just speculation which Vaz had already publicly denied.[43]
Conflict of interest[edit]
Vaz in 2008
In September 2008, Vaz faced pressure to explain why he failed to declare an interest when he intervened in an official investigation into the business dealings of a close friend, solicitor Shahrokh Mireskandari, who has played a role in several racial discrimination cases against the Metropolitan Police, and who was representing Assistant Commissioner Tarique Ghaffur in his racial discrimination case against Scotland Yard Commissioner Sir Ian Blair.
The Solicitors Regulation Authority began an investigation into Mireskandari's legal firm, Dean and Dean, in January 2008 after a number of complaints about its conduct. Vaz wrote a joint letter with fellow Labour MP Virendra Sharma to the authority's chief executive, Anthony Townsend, in February 2008 on official House of Commons stationery. He cited a complaint he had received from Mireskandari and alleged "discriminatory conduct" in its investigation into Dean and Dean. The Authority was forced to set up an independent working party to look into whether it had disproportionately targeted non-white lawyers for investigation.
Liberal Democrat deputy leader Vince Cable said that Vaz should make a public statement to clear up his role in the affair. "It is quite unreasonable that an independent regulator should have been undermined in this way. I would hope that the chairman of the home affairs select committee will give a full public statement."[44]
Detention without charge inquiry[edit]
In September 2008, Vaz came under pressure when it was revealed that he had sought the private views of Prime Minister Gordon Brown in connection with the Committee's independent report into government plans to extend the detention of terror suspects beyond 28 days. The Guardian reported that emails suggested that Vaz had secretly contacted the Prime Minister about the committee's draft report and proposed a meeting because "we need to get his [Brown's] suggestions". An email was sent in November 2007 to Ian Austin, Gordon Brown's parliamentary private secretary, and copied to Fiona Gordon, at the time Brown's political adviser. Another leaked email showed that Vaz had also sent extracts of the committee's draft report to the former Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, for his comments; according to Parliament's standing orders, the chairman of the Select Committee cannot take evidence from a witness without at least two other committee members being present.
Shami Chakrabarti, director of human rights group Liberty, compared it to a judge deciding a case privately emailing one of the parties to seek their suggestions.
Vaz denied that he invited Brown to contribute, except as a witness to the committee.[45]
Other issues and incidents since 2008[edit]
Parliamentary expenses[edit]
Vaz's total expenses of £173,937 in 2008/2009 were ranked 45th out of 647 MPs, with office running costs and staffing costs accounting for 70% of this.[11] The register of Member's interests shows that he owns the constituency office.[11]
His second home expenses, ranked 83 out of 647 at £23,831 in 2008/2009[11] were the subject of a Daily Telegraph article.[46] Vaz who lives in Stanmore, a 45-minute journey time from Parliament, claimed mortgage interest on a flat in Westminster he bought in 2003.
In May 2007, after claiming for the flat's service and council tax, he switched his designated second home to his constituency office and bought furniture.[46] The report into the Parliamentary expenses scandal by Sir Thomas Legg showed that 343 MPs had been asked to repay some money[47] and Vaz was asked to repay £1514 due to furnishing items exceeding allowable cost.[48] New expenses rules published by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority which came into force after the 2010 general election limit the second home allowance to £1,450 a month, i.e. the Westminster cost of renting a one bedroomed flat. Profits made on existing second homes will be recouped.[49]
Patrick Mercer affair[edit]
Vaz was one of the members of the Commons who agreed to be on the all-party parliamentary group on Fiji proposed by Patrick Mercer MP, as part of his paid advocacy for lobbyists. Mercer was recorded describing Vaz as "a crook of the first order", adding that he had "never met an operator like him... I mean it's not always completely ethical but it's stunning, he is an operator". Such comments on Vaz and on other politicians were a reason for the Committee on Standards deciding that Mercer had brought the House of Commons into disrepute.[50][51]
Alternative medicine[edit]
Vaz has signed several early day motions sponsored by David Tredinnick MP supporting the continued funding of homoeopathy on the National Health Service.[52][53]
Loudspeaker use during 2015 election campaign[edit]
In April 2015, a video showing Vaz speaking using loudspeakers from a campaign car caused a row with Leicester Conservatives. Using a loudspeaker on the street is an offence that carries a penalty of up to £5000, and there is no exemption for political campaigning.[54]
The incident was investigated by noise pollution officers of Leicester City Council, with officials confirming in June that it was illegal but that no action would be taken.[55]
Revelations about private life, HASC resignation and subsequent parliamentary appointments[edit]
Allegations about Vaz were published by the British Sunday Mirror tabloid in early September 2016. It was reported that he had engaged in unprotected sexual activity with male prostitutes and had said he would pay for cocaine if they wished to use it. Vaz apologised for his actions.[56][57] "It is deeply disturbing that a national newspaper should have paid individuals who have acted in this way", he said.[56][58] Vaz resigned as chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee on 6 September 2016.[59]
At the end of October 2016, Vaz was appointed to the Justice Select Committee, after he had put himself forward and was nominated by his party.[60] A House of Commons motion to block this development was defeated; they are rare on such an issue. According to Laura Hughes of The Daily Telegraph, Conservative Party whips told their MPs to vote for Vaz in the division to prevent a precedent being created of such appointments being rejected by MPs. Over 150 Conservative MPs voted in support of Vaz.[1] The Conservative MP Andrew Bridgen asked in the chamber of Vaz: "what makes him think that he is a fit and proper person this month?" The Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, Kathryn Hudson has previously announced an investigation into Vaz's conduct.[61]
Of course. Then another election, and another, and another.Time for a vote of no confidence, maybe?