Britain - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter Ross
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How will you vote in the 2024 UK General Election?

  • Conservative Party

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labour Party

    Votes: 14 48.3%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Other (Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland)

    Votes: 1 3.4%
  • Other Independents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Parties

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Spoiled Ballot

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Will Not/Cannot Vote

    Votes: 8 27.6%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech



That definition seems reasonable to me, to say nothing of intent behind or laws against such a thing.

Is a misplaced joke about a stereotype of said group hatespeech?

And do you consider the pug-video hatespeech? Before I start talking about a position you don't hold. :P

It's a great question and one that is incredibly hard to answer.

But as a start, a representative of the Jewish community didn't find it funny. A Jewish comedian did.

Well and that's the thing :P the comedian was able to distance himself from the subject of the joke. The representative didn't, nor should he.

Where we might disagree is wheter the represantatives opinion about offense is a descent legitemisation to punish someone in court. I think it shouldn't, offense is taken not given. So if I say something in a jokingly or descent way why should someone be punished for me taking offense? I have options, I can discuss this with said person, I could choose not to come in contact with this person. Those are the correct courses of action imo, not taking it to court. Now when this person keeps bugging you while yoy descided to just move on he's 'stalking' you. (Stalking is between brackets as it's probably not the correct english legal term for this behavior)

Love to hear your opinion.
 
Well you don't seem to be reading the definition very well then as hate speech has to be abusive or threatening by the definition you linked and the context in which you use words is critical to determining their meaning, or in other words whether they're abusive or threatening. So how is it that you can determine if what someone says, in this case gas the Jews, is abusive or threatening if you ignore context? I'd hope you'd agree that I haven't been abusive or threatening to Jewish people by saying it, and if you do, how did you come to that conclusion if you ignored the context in which I was saying it?
Neither the definition I provided nor my own comments stipulate that hate speech be abusive or threatening. Indeed hate speech can be--and often is--used in an abusive or threatening manner, but it is not inherently abusive or threatening.

I took those posts as you essentially repeating that certain language is hate speech regardless of context or intent.
Nothing "essentially" about it; that's exactly what I was doing. Hate speech is hate speech whether it's used for its presumed comedic value or to deliberately offend the group it refers to.

Is a misplaced joke about a stereotype of said group hatespeech?
Misplaced? How?
 
Neither the definition I provided nor my own comments stipulate that hate speech be abusive or threatening. Indeed hate speech can be--and often is--used in an abusive or threatening manner, but it is not inherently abusive or threatening.


Nothing "essentially" about it; that's exactly what I was doing. Hate speech is hate speech whether it's used for its presumed comedic value or to deliberately offend the group it refers to.


Misplaced? How?


As in some people within said group found it to be offensive, but some people found the joke funny.

Don't forget most people find stereotypes funny while they do not consider this to be an ok way to look at said group.
 
Neither the definition I provided nor my own comments stipulate that hate speech be abusive or threatening. Indeed hate speech can be--and often is--used in an abusive or threatening manner, but it is not inherently abusive or threatening.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/hate_speech

Are you sure you read the definition you linked? "Abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice against a particular group, especially on the basis of race, religion, or sexual orientation." So yes, the oxford dictionary definition of hate speech clearly states that it has to be abusive or threatening speech or writing. So I will ask again, and I'll ask slightly differently in the hope of getting an answer, is what I am writing hate speech? If you think what I'm writing is hate speech then your idea of what hate speech is simply wrong, very wrong and muddies the concept of hate speech to the point that it is useless. If you don't then the only justification you can have for that is based on context which would be completely contradicting yourself, so have fun answering that one.

Nothing "essentially" about it; that's exactly what I was doing. Hate speech is hate speech whether it's used for its presumed comedic value or to deliberately offend the group it refers to.

No, it's not, and if you think it is you have some serious misunderstandings about language. Context is essential in determining the meaning of the words you use, you can't just ignore it.

And now that I think about it, even if you did ignore context then "gas the Jews" still isn't hate speech because you would have to ignore all context, including the context that Nazi's killed millions of Jews in WW2 using gas chambers. The phrase doesn't even make any sense if context is ignored, it's just a lazy, contradictory cop out used by people to try and silence anyone that offends them whilst hiding the fact that what they're actually doing is only picking the context that justifies it being a crime to offend them.
 
But then that brings me onto the opinion of Ephraim Borowski that you've quoted, why should it be relevant to the trial? Whether or not someone is offended by what you say is of no importance to the context or intent of what was said or if it was hate speech. Hell someone feeling threatened or abused by what you said shouldn't even be enough to clearly state something as hate speech, let alone just being offended, as you can easily misunderstand the meaning of what someone else is saying.
I'm not a lawyer but presumably if he read out a statement at the trial then the court felt it was important to get his opinion. Seems a bit silly asking me why they summoned him as the article didn't say.
 
You don't seriously think that he was secretly using it as an excuse to say gas the Jews do you? Might want to take your tin foil hat off if you do.


Oh so you do think it was all just an excuse to let out his secret Nazi views.
Remind me again of where I've called him a nazi?

How about you try quoting what I'm saying and discussing it instead of making crap up and implying that's my position.
 
I'm not a lawyer but presumably if he read out a statement at the trial then the court felt it was important to get his opinion. Seems a bit silly asking me why they summoned him as the article didn't say.

Sorry, I assumed that you quoted him as you thought it was relevant to the discussion on whether or not the video was hate speech or a joke and not simply as an example of someone offended by the video as I'm sure there are lots.
Remind me again of where I've called him a nazi?

How about you try quoting what I'm saying and discussing it instead of making crap up and implying that's my position.

I didn't say you did. You should make sure you carefully read what I said before claiming that I'm "making crap up". I said that you think he was using the cover of a "joke" to let out his secret Nazi views, i.e. that Jews should be gassed, which I would hope you would agree is a Nazi view. You can have some Nazi views and not be a Nazi, although I doubt thinking that Jews should be killed is a particularly common view held among non-Nazi's. Or have I completely misunderstood what you said and you don't think that the "joke" was a cover to express his view that Jews should be killed. If I have then correcting me and clarifying what you mean would probably be enough.
 
I didn't say you did. You should make sure you carefully read what I said before claiming that I'm "making crap up". I said that you think he was using the cover of a "joke" to let out his secret Nazi views, i.e. that Jews should be gassed, which I would hope you would agree is a Nazi view. You can have some Nazi views and not be a Nazi, although I doubt thinking that Jews should be killed is a particularly common view held among non-Nazi's. Or have I completely misunderstood what you said and you don't think that the "joke" was a cover to express his view that Jews should be killed. If I have then correcting me and clarifying what you mean would probably be enough.
I think the word you're looking for is anti semitic, but please keep on digging that hole.
 
I think the word you're looking for is anti semitic, but please keep on digging that hole.

That would be a more accurate description yes, but what I said isn't wrong either and frankly the difference isn't important. But thank you for confirming that you're more interested in semantics than the actual discussion though and that you will just continue to avoid answering any actual questions.
 
So yes, the oxford dictionary definition of hate speech clearly states that it has to be abusive or threatening speech or writing.
Great, however the Wikipedia entry that I linked to and subsequently quoted does not. The Oxford Dictionary indeed defines it, as does Merriam-Webster, however I don't align my own beliefs with what the former specifies and the latter is just a little too concise. Wiki struck a balance that I find satisfactory.

Context is essential in determining the meaning of the words you use, you can't just ignore it.

And now that I think about it, even if you did ignore context then "gas the Jews" still isn't hate speech because you would have to ignore all context, including the context that Nazi's killed millions of Jews in WW2 using gas chambers.
Wow...never in a million years would I have thought I'd need to differentiate between words having no definition without context and the context in which words that have previously been defined through action are used.

So I will ask again, and I'll ask slightly differently in the hope of getting an answer, is what I am writing hate speech?
I'll be very clear in answering so that I can be sure you grasp my intent:

Up to that point in this thread? I don't know, I haven't been reading that closely.

Up to that point in this quoted post? Not that I can tell.

Beyond that point in this quoted post? Yes, as would I if I were citing its use, however it's clear that you're indeed citing its use rather than using it yourself.

But whether you're using the phrase to express a sincere desire to act in that manner, to get a rise out of an individual or group through implied comedic value or to merely cite its use doesn't really matter to me because I don't consider any of those to be cause for action.

Now, I can't say I had fun answering that, but I appreciate your well-wishing.
 
Sorry, I assumed that you quoted him as you thought it was relevant to the discussion on whether or not the video was hate speech or a joke and not simply as an example of someone offended by the video as I'm sure there are lots.
The court presumably thought it was relevant to the discussion as he spoke at the trial. I didn't pick him at random if that's what you're implying. If you think they were incorrect in summoning him that's your prerogative but I quoted him from the article on the trial linked to in my original post.

At a guess I'd say the court wanted to determine whether the speech was offensive and disagreed with your assertion that this had nothing to do with whether it constituted hate speech against Jewish people or not but as I said I could be wrong.
 
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Great, however the Wikipedia entry that I linked to and subsequently quoted does not. The Oxford Dictionary indeed defines it, as does Merriam-Webster, however I don't align my own beliefs with what the former specifies and the latter is just a little too concise. Wiki struck a balance that I find satisfactory.

So why post the Oxford dictionary definition then? It's also not considered good practice in terms of critical thinking to go and find a definition of something that suits your own beliefs. But anyway, the Wikipedia definition in no way helps your argument, switching out "abuse or threaten" with "attack" still doesn't automatically make certain language hate speech as whether I'm attacking someone by saying that again entirely depends on context.
Wow...never in a million years would I have thought I'd need to differentiate between words having no definition without context and the context in which words that have previously been defined through action are used.
So you are cherry picking context then? Why is the previous context of how certain language is used the only context that matters in determining if said language is hate speech? Better yet, why does the way in which language has been used previously get to define how a person now uses it and not that person? And finally, for what you're saying to make any sense at all the previous context has to also be the most significant context, as I'm sure in the past 70+ years the words "gas the Jews" have been used in context that hasn't been advocating actually killing Jews. Therefore why is the most significant context the only one that matters and why does it get to define all future context?

I doubt you will have much luck trying to rationalise all of that mess as determining the meaning of language is a lot more complicated than something as simple as "it's been used in a hateful way before therefore every time it's used is hate speech".
I'll be very clear in answering so that I can be sure you grasp my intent:
Up to that point in this thread? I don't know, I haven't been reading that closely.

Up to that point in this quoted post? Not that I can tell.

Beyond that point in this quoted post? Yes, as would I if I were citing its use, however it's clear that you're indeed citing its use rather than using it yourself.

But whether you're using the phrase to express a sincere desire to act in that manner, to get a rise out of an individual or group through implied comedic value or to merely cite its use doesn't really matter to me because I don't consider any of those to be cause for action.

Now, I can't say I had fun answering that, but I appreciate your well-wishing.

So if it's hate speech to simply cite it, why should I care about hate speech? By your definition the phrase "hate speech" (not the Wikipedia or dictionary ones as they don't so blatantly ignore context) is meaningless as it doesn't distinguish between completely harmless use of language and actually saying you want millions of people dead. The definition of hate speech should be meaningful and useful, if someone is guilty of hate speech is should mean that they've done something genuinely wrong and caused someone harm, not have a vague and pointless definition where context is irrelevant other than some cherry picked nonsense.
 
So why post the Oxford dictionary definition then?
Did I? I copied the Wikipedia page address and pasted it outright, and clicking it indeed redirects to the Wikipedia entry; I just checked...

Screenshot_20180329-130621.png

It's also not considered good practice in terms of critical thinking to go and find a definition of something that suits your own beliefs.
Not considered good practice by whom? If more than one acceptable definition exists, shouldn't one pick the definition that best suits their needs?

But anyway, the Wikipedia definition in no way helps your argument, switching out "abuse or threaten" with "attack"
I'm willing to grant you that, but it's been cited that the individual in this instance trained the dog to respond in a manner to annoy his girlfriend because it would presumably be considered offensive. Lighthearted as it may have been, is that not an attack? Furthermore, the context in which the language used would be found offensive was established by the video title, "M8 Yer Dugs a Nazi," or some subtle variation on that, so it would seem it wasn't likely meant to evoke a dentist that serves a Jewish community requesting that nitrous be used as light anesthetic.

I'm sure in the past 70+ years the words "gas the Jews" have been used in context that hasn't been advocating actually killing Jews.
Advocation speaks to intent, and I established that intent does not define hate speech.

why should I care about hate speech?
Why should you? I don't suggest you should, nor do I care whether or not you do.

if someone is guilty of hate speech is should mean that they've done something genuinely wrong and caused someone harm
Why would someone have been harmed if the words used have no meaning?
 
So anyway, I think we all agree that laws are there to protect rights and protect society from those who'd seek to deny the rights of others.

If Duckula or whatever gets sent to prison for being horrible about Jews, is society protected from him?
 
That would be a more accurate description yes, but what I said isn't wrong either and frankly the difference isn't important. But thank you for confirming that you're more interested in semantics than the actual discussion though and that you will just continue to avoid answering any actual questions.
I've answered plenty of questions, repeatedly. But frankly when someone thinks the difference between a Nazi and an anti-Semite is merely semantics then I'd probably be more productive bashing my head against a brick wall.
 

Yes;
I should also add presumed/implied illegality or subjective humor notwithstanding...

Hate speech is hate speech is hate speech.
Not considered good practice by whom? If more than one acceptable definition exists, shouldn't one pick the definition that best suits their needs?
Arguments shouldn't depend on a specific definition from one source because if they don't apply to a slightly different definition then it's probably not a very good argument. But hey, I'm probably just being pedantic.
I'm willing to grant you that, but it's been cited that the individual in this instance trained the dog to respond in a manner to annoy his girlfriend because it would presumably be considered offensive. Lighthearted as it may have been, is that not an attack?
No, annoying someone or offending them is not attacking them.
Furthermore, the context in which the language used would be found offensive was established by the video title, "M8 Yer Dugs a Nazi," or some subtle variation on that, so it would seem it wasn't likely meant to evoke a dentist that serves a Jewish community requesting that nitrous be used as light anesthetic.
I'll agree that the Nazi's killing Jews with gas is part of the context yes. My point is that you can't then just ignore the rest of the context, that turns it into a joke, and call it hate speech. The rest of the context being that the pug was reacting to it and saluting, which means something small, cute and harmless is seemingly trying to be incredibly evil, which if done right can be funny. Whether you actually find it funny or not though depends on the execution of the joke, but that has no relevance as to whether or not it was a joke.
Advocation speaks to intent, and I established that intent does not define hate speech.
Don't you see the problem with that? That whether you're actually advocating killing Jews or not is irrelevant to whether or not what you're saying is hate speech?
Why should you? I don't suggest you should, nor do I care whether or not you do.
Talking about context, way to take what I said way out of it. Why did you purposely cut out the rest of that sentence? I said if simply citing language that could be used to cause harm is hate speech, why should I, and to make this clearer, why should anyone, care about hate speech? It's a useless term if it applies to people who have done no harm or anything wrong.
Why would someone have been harmed if the words used have no meaning?

Are you skim reading because you seem to be missing quite crucial parts of what I'm saying, or intentionally missing them out. I said that with your idea of hate speech, where context for why the person is saying what they're saying is irrelevant, such as whether they are saying it or citing it, language has essentially no meaning. I'm saying that to define hate speech context is crucial as it allows you to determine meaning and if any harm has actually been done. So your basically your question makes no sense as it has no relevance to what you quoted, in fact what you've quoted is the exact opposite of what your question would be relevant to.
I've answered plenty of questions, repeatedly. But frankly when someone thinks the difference between a Nazi and an anti-Semite is merely semantics then I'd probably be more productive bashing my head against a brick wall.

You've repeatedly avoided questions and ignored significant chunks of posts, I still haven't seen you answer @Famine's question on how Meechan actually caused any harm which he's repeated several times and again just now. And the difference is semantics as far as this discussion is concerned as I don't see how it has any relevance whatsoever.
 
Okay, I wasn't aware that I hadn't linked to Wikipedia in that post. See, my argument wasn't very good, so I deemed the definition found in my go-to Webster to be a little too concise. I then checked Oxford and, while not ideal, I thought it better for my not-very-good argument. Just then, my inner Goldilocks won out and it occurred to me that because my argument wasn't very good, it might be benificial to check one more source...and that turned out to be juuuuust right. I thought I copied the address, but maybe I was preoccupied with thinking my argument wasn't very good.

No, annoying someone or offending them is not attacking them.
What is one's aim when acting to annoy or offend? What does annoying or offending someone accomplish? I'd argue--though perhaps not very well--that the aim is to distract or unsettle, which is what a verbal attack does. It may not be a knee to the emotional groin, but it's at the very least a mental Wet Willie.

My point is that you can't then just ignore the rest of the context, that turns it into a joke, and call it hate speech. The rest of the context being that the pug was reacting to it and saluting, which means something small, cute and harmless is seemingly trying to be incredibly evil, which if done right can be funny.
There's nothing inherently evil about a salute. Maybe it's that the context that springs to mind when that specific salute is emulated after the trigger phrase "gas the Jews" is that of the man responsible for the gassing and resulting deaths of as many as 6000 Jewish people daily.

Frankly, I don't know that that actual command phrase was even given to produce that result, but when those factors are taken in context, what else is supposed to spring to mind?


Don't you see the problem with that? That whether you're actually advocating killing Jews or not is irrelevant to whether or not what you're saying is hate speech?
It's relevant to note the difference between expressing genuine hatred and making a tasteless joke if the former demonstrates character in someone accused of doing physical harm to someone or damage to property belonging to someone that represents the group that genuine hatred was directed at. I don't believe differentiating between the two helps or or hinders defining hate speech itself.

Why did you purposely cut out the rest of that sentence? I said if simply citing language that could be used to cause harm is hate speech, why should I, and to make this clearer, why should anyone, care about hate speech? It's a useless term if it applies to people who have done no harm or anything wrong.
The implication was that the language being cited is hate speech. There is no comedic or genuinely harmful intent behind citing the use of hate speech for purposes of discussion.

But indeed, why should you, I or anyone care about hate speech (apart from what I noted above, as it may demonstrate character)? What harm is actually being done when hate speech is used and its use doesn't directly incite action to cause physical harm or property damage?


Are you skim reading because you seem to be missing quite crucial parts of what I'm saying, or intentionally missing them out. I said that with your idea of hate speech, where context for why the person is saying what they're saying is irrelevant, such as whether they are saying it or citing it, language has essentially no meaning. I'm saying that to define hate speech context is crucial as it allows you to determine meaning and if any harm has actually been done. So your basically your question makes no sense as it has no relevance to what you quoted, in fact what you've quoted is the exact opposite of what your question would be relevant to.
The question I asked calls back to your claim that incidents where such a phrase has been used innumerable times with any number of explanations rather than one particular incident and interpretation, and if a phrase evokes any number of incidents, it essentially evokes nothing and therefor shouldn't be harmful. But you say that genuine hate speech is harmful. How is it harmful if its source can't be pinpointed?
 
So no, I certainly have not.

You certainly have. You tried to claim that assault is a joke if you call it a joke. It may be a joke, but it's still assault. So by comparison to this situation, a saluting pug may be a joke, but that doesn't nullify any other "crimes" that may have been implicit in the action at the same time.

But you can't name one, apart from the very broadest interpretation of "hate speech". Which would seem to fall over in a practical sense as there's no hate intended and there's no incitation to any action. There's no societal harm, which is what hate speech laws are intended to prevent. Unless you'd like to present the harm that warrants removing a man's freedom and charging the taxpayer for locking him up.

Not considered good practice by whom? If more than one acceptable definition exists, shouldn't one pick the definition that best suits their needs?


Not considered good practice by those trying to make a logical and reasoned argument where the conclusion can be accepted by anyone that agrees to the propositions. If you're creating a proposition that relies on a very specific interpretation, then that's a weak argument.

Something like hate speech can be defined as many different things. I'd suggest that instead of cherry picking a definition to suit your argument (to which an adequate rebuttal is simply to choose a different definition) you should select a definition and include as part of your explanation why that particular definition is desirable to use over others.

So anyway, I think we all agree that laws are there to protect rights and protect society from those who'd seek to deny the rights of others.

If Duckula or whatever gets sent to prison for being horrible about Jews, is society protected from him?

Totally.

The man is a menace and I can't believe it took them this long to lock him up. I suppose we can't really argue for the death sentence these days because peecee culture, but they should just put him in the deepest cell and throw away the key. This man is the epitome of all that is horrific about humans, and if there was only room to lock up one person in the entire world he should definitely be it by a wide margin. I support all measures to make sure that he never interacts with another human being ever again, for fear that he might infect the rest of humanity with his mental sickness.

I've answered plenty of questions, repeatedly. But frankly when someone thinks the difference between a Nazi and an anti-Semite is merely semantics then I'd probably be more productive bashing my head against a brick wall.

In which case you'll have no problem stating in a single sentence the relevant distinctions as they pertain to this specific case.

What is one's aim when acting to annoy or offend? What does annoying or offending someone accomplish? I'd argue--though perhaps not very well--that the aim is to distract or unsettle, which is what a verbal attack does. It may not be a knee to the emotional groin, but it's at the very least a mental Wet Willie.


Do you have friends that you sometimes annoy or offend because it's funny? Do you intend it as an attack? Or do you intend it as a friendly jibe?

Tickling is physically indistinguishable from assault, but the difference is in the scale and the intent. When you tickle you're intentionally attempting not to cause lasting harm, and it's definitely not meant in anger.

Context is everything in cases like this. You cannot simply slap the label of hate speech on everything, because while all speech is definitely speech, it also requires the emotion of hate behind it. If there's no hate intended, it's not hate speech in any way that is actually meaningful.

But you say that genuine hate speech is harmful. How is it harmful if its source can't be pinpointed?

Genuine hate speech is harmful not because the speech itself is harmful but because it intends to incite harmful actions or behaviours. A false bomb threat in and of itself is just words, but overall the bomb threat is considered to be harmful because of the disruption that it can cause and the potential for creating an inability to correctly respond to real bomb threats. Ditto "fire" in a theatre. If a real warning then that's a service to other people in the room, but if false it can cause property damage, injury, or if you're very unlucky death in the resulting stampede.

These situations have clear consequences of the speech that are undesirable. Likewise, encouraging people to find Jews in their neighbourhoods and loosen their gas lines so that they suffocate would be criminal speech. Anything that could reasonably be considered to actually be inciting violence would be similar, whether it's racially based or not. That's where the harm comes from.

To me, that's a reasonable and useful definition of hate speech: speech that is intended (or should have reasonably been known) to cause harm or the reasonable potential for harm to others. You can get into the definition of harm a bit if you want, but I think that there's a lower limit below which it's simply inconvenience or irritation rather than actual harm. Flipping someone the bird is not harmful.
 
Totally.

The man is a menace and I can't believe it took them this long to lock him up. I suppose we can't really argue for the death sentence these days because peecee culture, but they should just put him in the deepest cell and throw away the key. This man is the epitome of all that is horrific about humans, and if there was only room to lock up one person in the entire world he should definitely be it by a wide margin. I support all measures to make sure that he never interacts with another human being ever again, for fear that he might infect the rest of humanity with his mental sickness.
Is anyone else calling for him to be locked up here? I figured it was a near unanimous opinion that the punishment was way out of proportion to whatever offence he may have caused (or that the court may have decided he caused).
 
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Is anyone else calling for him to be locked up here? I figured it was a near unanimous opinion that the punishment was way out of proportion to whatever offence he may have caused (or that the court may have decided he caused).

I'm not sure that even @ExigeEvan has called for him to be locked up, although his stance is probably the closest out of anyone here.

As for anyone else, read that post that you quoted again and tell me that you think I wrote that with a straight face. The person that should most be locked up of anyone in the entire world? Should never interact with anyone ever again in case he infects them? Should have the death penalty if PC culture hadn't done away with it?

I was pretty sure that I was extreme enough that anyone who had read even one of my other posts in this thread would see that it was intentionally absurd. Poe's Law is a thing, but given that this whole discussion is about context...

I guess I've unwittingly provided an example about how people can take a single statement out of context even when talking about a case where a single video is taken out of context.
 
I'm wondering if this bad lip-reading gif is hate speech:

WjidWwi.gif

After all, bereft of context, the gif contains anti-semitic views*, falsely ascribed to Cristiano Ronaldo by someone who created the image as a joke and then uploaded it to a public image sharing site.

And of course Sasha Baron Cohen packed the film "Borat" - from which he made lots of money - with anti-semitic references. But then he is Jewish, so perhaps that's one of those things like where it's okay to say ****** if you're black.


*Improbably blaming the Jews for a random ill... sounds like Hitler to me.
 
I'm not sure that even @ExigeEvan has called for him to be locked up, although his stance is probably the closest out of anyone here.

As for anyone else, read that post that you quoted again and tell me that you think I wrote that with a straight face. The person that should most be locked up of anyone in the entire world? Should never interact with anyone ever again in case he infects them? Should have the death penalty if PC culture hadn't done away with it?

I was pretty sure that I was extreme enough that anyone who had read even one of my other posts in this thread would see that it was intentionally absurd. Poe's Law is a thing, but given that this whole discussion is about context...

I guess I've unwittingly provided an example about how people can take a single statement out of context even when talking about a case where a single video is taken out of context.
If you think I read your statement at face value, then it's you that's taking my question out of context, not the other way around.

I just figured the locked up thing was done and dusted and there was no need to bring it into the conversation again when the focus had moved onto whether or not the video was offensive and whether that constituted hate speech. I should have replied to @Famine's post instead as he brought it up but I'd rather not.

In case you missed my own previous posts my position is:

1) It was definitely offensive to some people.
2) I'm not sure whether it constitutes hate speech as the court determined.
3) He should not have gone to jail.
 
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If you think I read your statement at face value, then it's you that's taking my question out of context, not the other way around.

Er, I may have misunderstood. Who was the first person that you were applying "anyone else" to if not the person you quoted? Being the person you quoted, I assumed it was me. Quite naturally, I would think. It's normal to assume that a post that quotes you is at least directed in your general direction or a response to something that you said.

I think rather than me taking it out of context, it sounds like perhaps you added context in the form of the quote that wasn't actually needed or wanted to make the point that you desired. One should not ignore the quoted text in posts any more than one should ignore the circumstances surrounding a man teaching a dog to respond to "gas the Jews".

In case you missed my own previous posts my position is:

1) It was definitely offensive to some people.
2) I'm not sure whether it constitutes hate speech as the court determined.
3) He should not have gone to jail.

I know. That's why I knew the first person of "anyone else" couldn't be you. I therefore made the assumption that it was the only other person referenced in the post, me. If that's incorrect, I beg your indulgence and ask who you were actually referencing.
 
I know. That's why I knew the first person of "anyone else" couldn't be you. I therefore made the assumption that it was the only other person referenced in the post, me. If that's incorrect, I beg your indulgence and ask who you were actually referencing.
It sounded like you and @Famine were having a poke at all those people who thought Count Whatever should be locked up. I was just pointing out that I didn't see any on this thread so the comment seemed misaimed to me. The "else" refers to the people who actually did lock him up, although I could have made that a lot clearer in my orginal post.
 
Something like hate speech can be defined as many different things. I'd suggest that instead of cherry picking a definition to suit your argument (to which an adequate rebuttal is simply to choose a different definition) you should select a definition and include as part of your explanation why that particular definition is desirable to use over others.
Yeah, if it'd occurred to me that what I was stating was so objectionable, I might've taken the time and care to craft a rounded argument that addressed all concerns.

I don't suggest the context in which the language was used in this instance (or any other where comedic value is implied) is harmful, mind you, I'm simply stating that I don't believe that that context defines the language.

It's clearly controversial, and there's no doubt that people would genuinely be offended (I don't mean SJWs that scour broadcasts and the internet for anything they can get enraged about; I'm talking about those who lost loved ones to the gassing efforts of the Nazis). Why else is it controversial? Why why else would it offend in that way?

To tell true, based on my understanding of the video (I haven't actually seen it, but I've read numerous accounts), I'm more inclined to find it humorous than offensive. I mean...it's a short, fat wrinkly dog emulating a Nazi salute. I actually see it more as mockery than admiration, and if anyone deserves to be mocked...

So the guy doesn't deserve to be punished in the manner he has been or that some propose he should be (this is where I'm fuzzy on details; is he the one whose conviction was overturned or is he presently on trial?) because the intent with which he used the words he used was not to incite genuinely harmful or hateful acts, but I still consider the words used to be hate speech.
 
Theresa May is playing a dangerous game of nuclear roulette, according to the below article. Bottom line, it may now be impossible for Britain to escape conflict with Russia.

Back in May 2017, just prior to the British general election, I wrote a piece arguing that a victory for Theresa May would see Britain dragged further towards war with Russia. While Britain is militarily weak compared to Russia, the point was that May would continue to do the bidding of Washington by demonising that country and engaging in provocative actions.

Well, Theresa May is now prime minister and if anything supports the above view, it is the recent events surrounding the poisoning of former spy Sergei Skripal with the nerve agent Novichock in Salisbury, UK. In the aftermath, we have seen a tirade of accusations levelled at Russia, with Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson comparing the 1936 Olympics in Berlin and the political capital made from the event by Hitler with the upcoming FIFA World Cup and Vladimir Putin. Johnson said Labour MP Ian Austin was completely right to say Russia’s president wanted to “gloss over [his] brutal corrupt regime”.

The accusations about Russian state involvement in the poisoning of Skripal (and his daughter) have been repeated across the Western media and by senior politicians despite the UK government failing to provide any proper evidence for Russian culpability. However, this is nothing new. The strident anti-Russia/Putin narrative has been ongoing for many years.

In April 2017, Russian President Vladimir Putin was told by the UK ambassador to the United Nations, Matthew Rycroft, that he is on the “wrong side of history” because of his support for Syria’s Bashar Assad. Rycroft added that supporting Assad would result in “shame” and “humiliation” for Russia. He said the UN Security Council had been “held to ransom by Russia’s shameless support for the Assad regime” and added that Russia’s credibility and reputation across the world would be poisoned by its toxic association with Assad.

In response to Rycroft’s statements, Russia’s UN representative, Vladimir Safronkov, said that Rycroft should stop putting forward unprofessional arguments and accusations based on lies. He warned that all Arab countries recall Britain’s colonial hypocrisy.

Many might think Rycroft lives in an alternative universe: what credibility does the US and its allies, including Britain, have given their illegal interventions in Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Iraq? Where does the reputation of these countries lie when much of the world beyond the bubble Rycroft exists in recognises that the US has supported terror groups to destroy Syria (described in Professor Tim Anderson’s book ‘The Dirty War on Syria‘)?

Nonetheless, the anti-Russia rhetoric has been incessant. Following the US-instigated coup in Ukraine, for instance, in 2017 the then British Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said that NATO must be ready for Russian aggression in “whatever form it takes.” He added that Russia is a “real and present danger.”

Now, in 2018, Theresa May and Boris Johnson accuse the Russian state of carrying out the attack in Salisbury yet provide no proper evidence to support this accusation. Other Western countries have joined in with the accusations and a tit-for-tat expulsion of diplomats has followed. A dangerous game of Russian roulette that seems to escalate with each passing day, all based on a campaign of disinformation.

In a series of recent articles, former British ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray has been highlighting the nature of the false accusations regarding the Skripal case and has accused Boris Johnson of being a “categorical liar”.

In the UK, over the two years or so, we have also seen British Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbynbeing ridiculed and attacked relentlessly. Corbyn has been described by prominent figures in the Conservative government as a threat to security and as a threat to Britain.

Corbyn is a target for the establishment because he swims against the Washington consensus of neoliberal capitalism, NATO-instigated wars and US imperialism. After Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour Party, Michael Fallon stated that Labour was a serious risk to Britain’s national security.

If anything is a threat to Britain and the world, it is the underhand destabilisations and wars it participates in, the ones that the likes of Fallon support. The US thinks it and it alone has the right to act as it deems fit to maintain its global dominance: no other power will be allowed to rise to challenge the US and its client states fall in line to provide support.

As documented by historian William Blum, the US has over a period of decades created a very long list of bogeymen and bogus reasons to remove leaders and destroy sovereign states that have stood in the way of this agenda. In terms of a massive military budget, worldwide military bases, illegal wars and destabilisations, it is not ‘Russian aggression’ the world should be concerned about but US militarism which poses the greater threat to humanity. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US has pressed ahead in a strategic sense to the point where it believes it can win a nuclear war with preemptive strike against Russia.

Since when did Russia a target for demonisation? The answer is when Washington decided to break prior agreements with Moscow and encircle Russia with missiles. The US demands Russia accept this without complaint. But Putin is not Yeltsin. Russia has understandably reacted to events in Ukraine, in its own backyard, and has come to the aid of Syria, an ally under attack from Western-backed forces. Western leaders and the media portray any protests or military countermeasures by Putin as ‘aggression’. US strategy is to destroy Russia as a functioning state or at least replace Putin with a compliant puppet willing to acquiesce to Washington’s hegemony.

There are well over a million dead in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya as a result of direct military intervention or covert actions by the Western powers and their allies (the death count for Iraq alone between 1990 and 2012 could be 3.3 million as a result of Western economic sanctions and illegal wars).

Many individuals, like Dick ‘Halliburton’ Cheney for one, have profited handsomely on the back of the destruction of Iraq that they helped bring about. However, Cheney, Bush, Blair, Obama and Hillary Clinton – who are all complicit in driving illegal conflicts, destabilisations or outright war and who have the blood of so many on their hands – are given a free pass and accorded a type of stately respect by the media and within establishment circles.

Outrage is reserved for Jeremy Corbyn who has consistently been against all such actions or for Vladimir Putin who has acted to protect Russia’s interests in the face of ongoing provocations. How do Cheney, Blair and the rest continue to get away with their actions, while the focus is kept on the establishment’s convenient enemies?

The intelligence agencies have for decades ensured that key political leaders and the mainstream media comply with the interests of the Anglo-US establishment and are ‘on message’. And these agencies certainly have a firm hold over media messages. A few years ago, Udo Ulfkotte, former editor of Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, one of Germany’s largest newspapers, claimed that he accepted news stories written and given to him by the CIA and published them under his own name. His situation is not unique. As for the UK, scroll through the web pages of UK-based Lobster magazine and the picture will become clear.

We are currently witnessing an orchestrated campaign directed at the public to shape negative perceptions about Russia, helped along by the recent events in London. Through her inflammatory rhetoric, Theresa May is dutifully playing her part, while simultaneously distracting attention from her government’s disastrous neoliberal agenda on the home front. A good old dose of patriotic fervour always helps on that score.

Regardless of her motives, May is helping to accelerate a trajectory towards conflict with Russia that it might be impossible to escape from.

*

Colin Todhunter is a frequent contributor to Global Research.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/theresa-may-playing-a-reckless-game-of-nuclear-roulette/5633843
 
So the guy doesn't deserve to be punished in the manner he has been or that some propose he should be (this is where I'm fuzzy on details; is he the one whose conviction was overturned or is he presently on trial?) because the intent with which he used the words he used was not to incite genuinely harmful or hateful acts, but I still consider the words used to be hate speech.

In what situations would you consider your definition of hate speech where context is not considered to be useful over one that does? It seems to me that the moment anyone takes offence to any speech, under your definition it becomes hate speech. Or even uses words that in context would not be offensive, but in general usage are considered to be offensive like swear words.

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Even harassment has a reasonable standard to it. Anyone can claim harassment and the victim is generally given a lot of leeway, but if someone claims that me eating a tuna sandwich in the lunchroom is harassment because they don't like the smell they're going to get told to suck it up and stop being so precious. Without intent, it's not reasonable to consider something harassment.

It makes it impossible to create a reasonable hate speech law if the offence literally includes all possible language. If "gas the Jews" is hate speech regardless of context, then the law that defines that offence will itself be hate speech.

Can we be a little sensible and recognise that language is not entirely described purely by the words? Particularly in the case of spoken language and visual media, where there's so much more communication going on outside of just the words. You could take the same words spoken in the Dankula video and say them in such a manner and with such footage behind that it would be unquestionably hate speech designed to incite.

If you truly choose to use "hate speech" to designate such a broad range of speech, what term would you use to refer to what I and others mean when we say "hate speech"? Namely, how I explained it at the bottom of my last reply to you.

We can argue over definitions, but ultimately it doesn't matter that much as long as we understand what we each mean when we use words. I understand what you mean when you say hate speech, and I want to know what word I would use to discuss my idea of hate speech with yourself or others like you.

Genuine hate speech is harmful not because the speech itself is harmful but because it intends to incite harmful actions or behaviours. A false bomb threat in and of itself is just words, but overall the bomb threat is considered to be harmful because of the disruption that it can cause and the potential for creating an inability to correctly respond to real bomb threats. Ditto "fire" in a theatre. If a real warning then that's a service to other people in the room, but if false it can cause property damage, injury, or if you're very unlucky death in the resulting stampede.

These situations have clear consequences of the speech that are undesirable. Likewise, encouraging people to find Jews in their neighbourhoods and loosen their gas lines so that they suffocate would be criminal speech. Anything that could reasonably be considered to actually be inciting violence would be similar, whether it's racially based or not. That's where the harm comes from.

To me, that's a reasonable and useful definition of hate speech: speech that is intended (or should have reasonably been known) to cause harm or the reasonable potential for harm to others. You can get into the definition of harm a bit if you want, but I think that there's a lower limit below which it's simply inconvenience or irritation rather than actual harm. Flipping someone the bird is not harmful.
 
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